Removal of 1-A Root.

[Wankbreaker]

The Tier 0 Root thread has frozen into an eternal sleep, so I will do everyone else the favor of collecting things that’ll make you go “Seriously? Why was this glossed over?”

Before any Tier 0 discussion can go on, I believe these should be addressed, as it threatens even the Root’s current 1-A tier. Because quite frankly, it doesnt meet the requirements of the system.

1. The Root being at the “top” of dimensional theory, and not “above” it.
This isnt so important on it’s own, but it WILL play a key role later down the line of this CRT,as this phrasing is problematic.
I will lazily paste this from ultima’s own CRT, as I checked this and it’s correct.

Mirror Moon translation:
In short, the Holy Grail War is not a battle to obtain the Holy Grail, but a ritual to escape to the outside world. Attempts to reach the outside world. According to hermeticism, there's a power that governs dimensional theory outside of this world. It's called the 'swirl of the origin', and it's a coordinate that's considered to be the beginning of all things. It's the start and the end of all creation. It's the seat of God, recording everything and able to create anything.


Japanese: 神秘学の語るところによれば、この世界の外側には次元論の頂点に在る“力”があるという。 あらゆる出来事の発端とされる座標。それが、すべての魔術師の悲願たる『根源の渦』……万物の始まりにして終焉しゅうえん、この世の全てを記録し、この世の全てを創造できるという神の座である。
Source: Fate/Stay Night

The focus here being twofold. Firstly, there is this sentence: "次元論の頂点"

"次元論" = Dimensional theory. Theory of dimensions.

"頂点" = Apex, summit, pinnacle.

Secondly, there's this: あらゆる出来事の発端とされる座標. "座標" meaning "Coordinate," referring to the Root.

2. The Root being an “outer layer” of the world, and therefore an extension of it.

根源への到達
魔術用語
「世界」の外郭にあるという、この世のすべてが記録された、万物の始まりにして終焉の場所。あらゆる魔術師たちの最終目標であり、始まりの御三家もまた、根源に至るために聖杯召喚システムを構築した。



"Reaching the Root
Mage Terminology
A place said to be at the periphery of the 'world,' where everything in this world is recorded, being the beginning and end of all things. It is the ultimate goal for all mages, and the founding three families also constructed the Holy Grail summoning system to reach the Root"

The kanji of interest is “ 外郭”,denoting an outer layer or edge, basically.

Why is this a problem?

Here is a sentence from the 1-A part of the tiering system.

“Characters or objects residing in higher states of existence surpassing material composition as a whole, and who are therefore completely unreachable and inaccessible to any and all extensions of the aforementioned structures.”

Obviously, the root being the “outer edge of the world”, is still an extension of “The World” (which has space-time), despite its superiority. This is supported by the descriptions of the character “Sajyou Manaka.”:

──世界そのものにさえ等しい、万物を生む根源がかたちを成した少女。沙条愛歌。


"The girl who embodies the very Root of all creation, equal to the world itself. Sajyou Manaka.

It is established that she is connected to the Root inverse because of this.

Why is this important to this point? Pay attention to this:

真理と化した女の子であり、すべてを成せる女の子でした。
命を、と望めば命を発生させられる。 ささや まんえん
死を、と囁けば死を蔓延させられる。 つな
世界は彼女と繫がっていて、彼女は世界と繫がっていたのかもしれません。
彼女はおよそ全能でした。
不可能などひとつもない。すべてを操って、成し遂げ、崩し去ることができる。そんな機能をもって ゆえ
しまった故に何事にも楽しみがなくなってしまった彼女は、自分の全能にひとつだけルールを作りまし た。
それは「自分の未来は見ないようにする」というものです。
世界そのものにも等しい彼女は、自分自身に制限を掛けたのです。 かせ
ルール。制限。枷。だって、それぐらいしないと全能はとても退屈で。ヒトのままでいる意味がまるで なくなって、生命活動なんて続けていられない。きっと死んでしまう。 結果的に、彼女の行動は正解だったのでしょう。
まぶた 少なくとも彼女は毎朝眠りから目覚めて、瞼を開けて、呼吸をして、窓越しに空を見上げたり、
さえず 小鳥の囀りへ耳を傾けたり、父へ透き通った視線を向けたりできました。父の言うがままに魔術を
操るあれこれもやってのけました。生まれたばかりの妹に対しては、父や母のように涙を流したりはし ないまでも、他の人間たちがするように、小さな妹の頰を指でつついて、その柔らかさを確かめたりで きました。

She was a girl who became truth itself, a girl who could accomplish everything. If she wished for life, she could create it. If she whispered death, she could spread it. The world might have been connected to her, and she to the world. She was virtually omnipotent. There was not a single thing that was impossible. She could manipulate, achieve, and dismantle everything. Because she had such abilities, she lost enjoyment in everything and decided to create one rule about her omnipotence. That was "to not see her own future."

She, who was almost equal to the world itself, imposed limitations on herself. A rule. A restriction. A shackle. Because without doing that much, omnipotence was very boring. Staying human became meaningless, and continuing life activities wouldn't be possible. She would surely perish. In the end, her action was probably the right decision.

At the very least, every morning she awakened from sleep, opened her eyes, breathed, and looked up at the sky through the window. She could listen to the chirping of small birds and gaze transparently at her father. As her father instructed, she performed various acts of magic. Although she did not shed tears like her father or mother for her newborn sister, she could poke her little sister's cheeks with her fingers, like other humans do, to feel their softness.

“The world might have been connected to her, and she to the world.”

This sentence again implies that the Root is an extension of the world, so to speak.


3. Angra Mainyu making a pathway to the root connected by spatial positions.

Self explanatory. In HA, this happens at the very end of the story.



Angra Mainyu still has some capabilities left over from his time as the greater grail, and the Grail can do this:

have to hyperlink this since the embed is broken.

Notable line being:

英霊を聖杯によって根源の渦を固定化 使役し生き残った者だけが、聖する事


Only the one who survives, utilizing the heroic spirits, is supposed to obtain the Holy Grail, fixate (TL note: or stabilize) the Swirl of the Root by means of the Holy Grail, and eventually reach the Root itself.

Very clear that is a pathway to the root, moving on.


4. The 2nd,3rd,and4th magics.

Gaining true magic in Mahoyo is described as “overcoming a dimensional wall”, and reaching the root.

Source: (https://tri-hermes.org/Novels/Mahoyo/Chapter9.html#scene-7 )

Magic, True Magic, isn't just some manuscript derived from the Swirl of the Root like magecraft is, but something that comes directly from the Root itself."

"As for the Swirl of the Root, well... The simplest way I can describe it so you'll understand is to compare it to the sun. The Sun is really far away, and has been there from the beginning as far as we're concerned. Without it, you and I wouldn't be able to live."

"Magecraft merely lets us take advantage of the Sun's benefits, so to speak. Magecraft is all about imitating or paying for natural phenomena. We can use it to study, practice, and recreate Mystics-mysteries-but it can never truly create them. Actually, no matter how much you learn, you eventually hit a wall. It's like a limiter that human knowledge can never overcome."

"And beyond that wall is where Magic, the Sun itself, exists. To attain it means to go where no one can go, and awaken miracles no one could possibly reproduce. A technique to make things happen that humanity could never hope to accomplish with any amount of time or resources... that's True Magic."

"It's about overcoming that dimensional wall-like, running until you reach the end where you'll find a world with completely different rules from ours. That's the only way you can, well, learn it."

"I told you before that magecraft has no limits, right? Well I meant that it has no limits within the scope of human knowledge. Meanwhile, Magic has lots of limits; as in, it can only do one thing, and one thing alone. Makes sense, right? I mean, we're talking about unique, rule-breaking concepts and mechanisms that exist outside the boundaries of the very universe."

Magic is described as a “reward” for reaching the root.

English: "The place where all knowledge is recorded, where all matters are settled. To see, touch, and understand it makes even the impossible possible. It has gone by many names over the years, but you could say it's where God lives."

Japanese: 根源の渦っていうのは、全ての叡知えいちが記録された位置、全ての事柄が決定された場所。そこを見て、触れて、理解できれば不可能なんて言葉すら作り替えられる。伝承によって呼び名は様々だけど、ようするに神さまのいる位置なんでしょうね

Magic [Term]
A mystery distinct from sorcery. The final destination of magi. "Magic" is that which makes the impossible into the possible, for a given era.

Magics are grouped into 2 categories: Cause (1st,5th) and “effect” (2nd,3rd,4th).

Chapter 12: WITCH ON THE HOLY NIGHT II

TYPE-MOON Lore Database

tri-hermes.org

Tell me something, Aoko. ところで青子。
Your Magic...is it cause, or is it effect...?" おまえの魔法とやらは、手段か、それとも結果か？」

Touko wanted to know if it came before, or came after. 先なのか、後なのか。
Did Aoko need Magic to get her where she needed to go? ある場所を目指す為に魔法を必要としたのか、
Or did she obtain Magic as a result of reaching that place? その場所に到達した為に魔法が出来てしまったのか。

This doesn’t seem too problematic, until you see this statement from KNK.

... I see. In this sense, magi and Magicians were indeed different. Only things such as time and space manipulation were currently beyond the reach of humanity. In an era where limited forms of viewing the past and future had become possible, there were very few things that were indeed impossible.

Obviously, overcoming a space-time barrier to reach a supposedly 1-A realm with time and space manipulation is problematic.

5. Counter Guardian access?

This is, admittedly, the weakest entry in the CRT.

Counter-Guardians, beings of a “higher” dimension, shouldnt have an entry point that leads into a 1-A realm. Yet they do, according to KNK.

“Heroic Spirits are a spiritual phenomenon of a higher order, and the Throne of Heroic Spirits exists in a dimension above this dimension.
They are an existence that transcend time. For the methods of human preservation utilized at Chaldea, there couldn’t be better collaborators. That is because once the contract is signed, they can appear in any era.”

"--- Are you trying to open the road to the origin?

But, how? Even if you don't set out a magical ward to testify that you aren't a mage, you can't fool the will of the dominant race. The only ones you can fool by using a technological ward are other mages. If you use this building a path will definitely open. Since its the realization of the Taeguekdo, a hole would certainly appear. But the first thing to come out of that hole will be a Counter Guardian. As long as we are who we are, there is no way we can stand up to that."

"--- The Counter Force is already acting. The fact that you are in this city. The man who came to rob an empty house for no reason, as if he was possessed by something. The woman who was assaulted and killed on this road that has never known such things in the past. I tried this hard to hide my activities, but the Counter Force has already acted three times.

But that is all. I will not be going any closer to the origin. The many failures I have experienced will not go to waste. There was a time when I didn't know of the power called the Counter Force and tried to open a path, but I couldn't fool its eyes. One time I attempted this with a way to overthrow the Counter Force itself, but it always appeared with strength greater that any I could bring to bear.

There is only one conclusion. I do not have the ability."

And obviously:


Characters or objects residing in higher states of existence surpassing material composition as a whole, and who are therefore completely unreachable and inaccessible to any and all extensions of the aforementioned structures.

This is a great disqualifier for 1-A.

 

[GarrixianXD]

@DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa @Dereck03 @DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @Agnaa @LephyrTheRevanchist @Everything12 @CrimsonStarFallen @ActuallySpaceMan42 I was asked to tag staff.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I don't think this thread is appropriate atm, because the Root's current 1-A rating is a result of older standards. It just gets needlessly convoluted trying to rationalize that with our new standards and such, and having this alongside another Root thread just makes things disorganized imo

I'd rather there just be one dedicated thread to looking at the Root through the lens of the new tiering system and arriving at a conclusion from there

 

[Wankbreaker]

I don't think this thread is appropriate atm, because the Root's current 1-A rating is a result of older standards. It just gets needlessly convoluted trying to rationalize that with our new standards and such, and having this alongside another Root thread just makes things disorganized imo

I'd rather there just be one dedicated thread to looking at the Root through the lens of the new tiering system and arriving at a conclusion from there

This thread is essentially trying to analyze if it does indeed still qualify.

Trying to upgrade the Root to 0 while it hasn’t been confirmed if it even qualifies for 1-A anymore is skipping a few steps.

In ultima’s own words off-site, he’s been too lazy to check the other thread (probably because of the influx of new posts). A fresh thread like this one actually gets things going.

 

[Firestorm808]

I would consider an Upgrade to Tier 0 and Determining if it retains its current rating as 2 different discussions. Will look at when able.

 

[Firestorm808]

1-A: Outerverse level​

Characters or objects residing in higher states of existence surpassing material composition as a whole, and who are therefore completely unreachable and inaccessible to any and all extensions of the aforementioned structures. Their superiority over such realms, as such, is purely "qualitative"; based entirely on the ontological quality and nature of their existence, rather than any quantitative or numerical principle.

From what I've seen so far, I'm leaning in favor of the OP. Will wait for the opposing party to provide details of any qualitative superiority.

 

[Deagonx]

“Characters or objects residing in higher states of existence surpassing material composition as a whole, and who are therefore completely unreachable and inaccessible to any and all extensions of the aforementioned structures.”

Yeah, based on this description I am skeptical that the Root qualifies. Many of these issues overlap with some of the issues with Tier 0, but for different reasons.

@Ultima_Reality Your thoughts?

 

[Catzlaflame]

I think the OP raises valid concerns - I will not officially vote until I see the counterpoints, but I don't think this would qualify in the absence of an explanation for the OPs points.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Yeah, based on this description I am skeptical that the Root qualifies. Many of these issues overlap with some of the issues with Tier 0, but for different reasons.

@Ultima_Reality Your thoughts?

No thoughts.

emnmpty

(Will look later.)

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Sorry about commenting without permission, but I think this thread should be closed for now since there are currently three other Nasuverse content revision threads open right now (one of which is about the Root itself).

If the Staff feel like this is fine to keep open, that's fine with me, and feel free to delete my post.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Sorry about commenting without permission, but I think this thread should be closed for now since there are currently three other Nasuverse content revision threads open right now (one of which is about the Root itself).

If the Staff feel like this is fine to keep open, that's fine with me, and feel free to delete my post.

The other root thread can always be temporarily closed, as that’s clearly going nowhere as of now.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

The other root thread can always be temporarily closed, as that’s clearly going nowhere as of now.

Usually the older threads have higher priority, but I guess I'll let the staff decide.

 

[GarrixianXD]

Nasuverse is a franchise that can have 6 active CRTs hosted due to its mass popularity and prominence on the site, and the battleboarding community in general.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Nasuverse is a franchise that can have 6 active CRTs hosted due to its mass popularity and prominence on the site, and the battleboarding community in general.

Oh, it can? I wasn't aware of that. Well, my bad, carry-on then.

 

[Wankbreaker]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

No thoughts.

emnmpty

(Will look later.)

@Ultima_Reality

 

[Wankbreaker]

b

u

m

p

How long should the supporters be given to provide counter arguments? It’s been 5 days since the OP

 

[CloverDragon03]

How long should the supporters be given to provide counter arguments? It’s been 5 days since the OP

Well you made it a staff thread which already bars the supporters from commenting unless they get permission. Ultima also has yet to comment, so let's not rush things

 

[Wankbreaker]

Well you made it a staff thread which already bars the supporters from commenting unless they get permission.

5 days is a lot of time to get permission.

Ultima also has yet to comment, so let's not rush things

 

[CloverDragon03]

5 days is a lot of time to get permission.

Gathering arguments and having a life also exist though. Like atm this is just pushing for this to be applied as quickly as possible (and no one really conclusively voted anyway, everyone's either leaning or just waiting for counterarguments)

Slow and steady wins the race. A tale as old as time

 

[Firestorm808]

How long should the supporters be given to provide counter arguments? It’s been 5 days since the OP

There's no rush.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Bumping this with some new information

Even by Clock Tower standards, wouldn't you consider it cheap?" "Are you planning to destroy not just Monaco, but the entire Azure Coast?" It would be a great feat that rivals even that. From the perspective of the Clock Tower's values, they wouldn't hesitate to trade an entire country. " Is that so? It's not even worth considering. To make a new planet is to build up another Root."
, the teacher acknowledged. That's how mages are.

Ziz sighed. "Oh dear, it turned out like this after all."

The teacher focused his gaze on the captive Ergo. "Even so, I can't hand over my apprentice." Many mages wouldn't care about human lives if they could achieve the results they seek. Ziz advertised such a great achievement.

"It really would have been good if I had won the bet. That's the problem with gambling."

The teacher replied. "Just like you, in the end, I couldn't win. It would have been nice if I had, but I could only deceive it in such a manner."

 

[CloverDragon03]

I don't know nearly enough to give a conclusive opinion but I feel like the OP probably should also give their proposal for what the Root would be downgraded to, if 1-A were to go. Idk if others feel the same way

 

[Wankbreaker]

I don't know nearly enough to give a conclusive opinion but I feel like the OP probably should also give their proposal for what the Root would be downgraded to, if 1-A were to go. Idk if others feel the same way

1 level of superiority beyond the highest point of cosmology seemed like a given, but I’ll say it now… if that even, judging by the scan I sent above.

 

[CloverDragon03]

1 level of superiority beyond the highest point of cosmology seemed like a given, but I’ll say it now… if that even, judging by the scan I sent above.

Tbh I'm not really willing to use that scan as much just because it's so inconsistent with everything else describing the Root. Like, even if it's not 1-A, this sticks out like a sore thumb and comes across to me as an outlier in the grand scheme of things

 

[Wankbreaker]

Tbh I'm not really willing to use that scan as much just because it's so inconsistent with everything else describing the Root. Like, even if it's not 1-A, this sticks out like a sore thumb and comes across to me as an outlier in the grand scheme of things

I don’t think we should be using “outlier” in the same way we scale characters, to deny the lore aspect of these things (which is pretty much where this comes from.) Especially when this is part of the motivations of a major character.

Regardless, this isn’t a new concept. It just served as little more than supporting evidence before now.

one example being:


Chaos, (also erroneously called true chaos), is essentially just 「」

Chaos​

term
That which has no form. That which will become everything. That which lacks direction. That which will not take form without direction. That which has no meaning. That which should not have meaning.
That is chaos.

The gradual transformation into this process essentially requires shaving off your existence, including your own meaning:

Due to his abilities, he is becoming increasingly indifferent and uninterested in everything. If he had remained alive, he might have become nothing more than chaos in a few hundred years.

Why is this relevant? Maiko Yamase approaching this state was directly said to be a new world (planet), being born.

"Yes, to us. Your physical body is getting closer to chaos. Chaos is, in essence, a single world where heaven and earth are fused together. To completely destroy the chaos that is you, it would take enough power to destroy one entire world. Since the Earth has existed, such a being with that power has never existed. — But Shiki is different.

“Yes, with Tohno-kun's Mystic Eyes of Death Perception, he can kill only the existence that is you. Tohno-kun can kill not the concept of chaos, but the concept that is you.”

"…So that's why you brought a sick person here."

Additional information on Chaos from FGO.

天地、寒暖、善悪、一切が混然一体こんぜんいったいとなった、故に万能の可能性を含む、世界の太母、原初の混沌……天地、寒暖、善悪、一切が混然一体こんぜんいったいとなった、故に万能の可能性を含む、世界の太母、原初の混沌……"Heaven and earth, warmth and cold, good and evil—all became an indistinguishable whole. Thus, it contains the potential for all things; the great mother of the world, the primordial chaos..."

始原より二元の世界であった北欧神話わ　れ　らの世界観と異なり、異教では『原初の混沌』をしばしば定義している。"In contrast to the Norse worldview, which was a dualistic world from the very beginning, Pagan beliefs often define the 'primordial chaos'."

A basic google search will tell you what “primordial chaos” is.

Primordial chaos is a concept in mythology and cosmology that refers to the state of the universe before creation

Consistent with the FGO description, yea? A primordial “state” that holds the potentiality of all things,which is equivalent to a singular world/planet.

 

[Wankbreaker]

addendum:



Archetype Earth talks to Ryougi Shiki here.

She essentially says the laws of “the Heavens”, and the laws of Earth are distinct entities, and will seperate one day. (Implying that they were, and currently are “one” ) (This ties back to my explanation about Chaos. It is a single world( planet) where Heaven and Earth are fused.)

However, Shiki (or some unconscious side of her) doesn’t want this to happen, as Archetype Earth says, “their rules” will eventually come into conflict, so she came here due to her aspect (origin) causing her to have a close connection to the root.

TLDR: This is not new, nor is it as disconnected from previous lore as you think it is.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I don’t think we should be using “outlier” in the same way we scale characters, to deny the lore aspect of these things (which is pretty much where this comes from.) Especially when this is part of the motivations of a major character.

With how liberally people like to use the term on VSBW, we absolutely can. Technically, any feat is part of a series' "lore", yet we can dismiss them as outliers. If we're getting all these descriptions about the Root that had you saying it's absolutely 1 level of superiority above the cosmology, and now this one thing caps it at Planetary? Yeah no, that's absolutely an outlier and I am very much in favor of ignoring it

 

[Wankbreaker]

With how liberally people like to use the term on VSBW, we absolutely can. Technically, any feat is part of a series' "lore", yet we can dismiss them as outliers. If we're getting all these descriptions about the Root that had you saying it's absolutely 1 level of superiority above the cosmology, and now this one thing caps it at Planetary? Yeah no, that's absolutely an outlier and I am very much in favor of ignoring it

Planets in the nasuverse arent exactly "normal" (which is why they are rated above tier 5.)

But regardless, i've already explained how this isnt a new thing, its just made even more explicit. We do NOT disregard important plotlines to current story chapters just because we dont like what comes out of it.

This is like the geocentric philosophers regarding the heliocentric model as incorrect, because of the sheer fact that it goes against your preconceived notion

 

[CloverDragon03]

Planets in the nasuverse arent exactly "normal" (which is why they are rated above tier 5.)

But regardless, i've already explained how this isnt a new thing, its just made even more explicit. We do NOT disregard important plotlines to current story chapters just because we dont like what comes out of it.

This is like the geocentric philosophers regarding the heliocentric model as incorrect, because of the sheer fact that it goes against your preconceived notion

What tier even are planets in the Nasuverse to begin with?

Also this is the same site that made Roshi's 5-C rating an outlier so I think anything's fair game here. If we've got like multiple things saying it's superior to the cosmology then I'm not gonna agree with downgrading it below that just because of one extra thing.

Also your equivalence makes no sense, this isn't a "preconceived notion" this is literally based on your assessment. Are we going to ignore the statements about the Root that would place it higher for the sake of this one statement? If so, why can we so easily ignore statements if it supports a lower rating, and not if it supports a higher rating? That's kind of a double standard, no?

 

[Wankbreaker]

What tier even are planets in the Nasuverse to begin with?

Currently? 1-C

Also this is the same site that made Roshi's 5-C rating an outlier so I think anything's fair game here. If we've got like multiple things saying it's superior to the cosmology then I'm not gonna agree with downgrading it below that just because of one extra thing.

Again, your comparison to Roshi's 5-C rating is irrelevant here. We're dealing with fundamental metaphysical concepts and cosmology, not character feats that can be inconsistent.

Also your equivalence makes no sense, this isn't a "preconceived notion" this is literally based on your assessment. Are we going to ignore the statements about the Root that would place it higher for the sake of this one statement? If so, why can we so easily ignore statements if it supports a lower rating, and not if it supports a higher rating? That's kind of a double standard, no?

The statements I've provided don't contradict earlier lore - they clarify and expand on it. The Root being equivalent to a primordial state of the worldwith the potential for all things aligns perfectly with it being the "origin" of all things.
There's no double standard here. I'm advocating for a holistic interpretation of all available information, including recent developments that provide more precise explanations of the Root's nature.

This isn't a case of selectively ignoring information. I've presented multiple quotes and explanations showing how the Root is integrated into and part of the world, not transcendent to it. For example:

The Root being described as the "outer edge of the world"
Sajyou Manaka being described as being "connected to the world" due to her connection to the Root
The concept of Chaos being equivalent to a singular world where Heaven and Earth are fused, and it's nature tying directly to the Root's nature.

The dialogue between Archetype Earth and Ryougi Shiki provides even more evidence that supports my interpretation of the Root's nature. Let's break it down:

Archetype Earth states that the laws of "the Heavens" and Earth are distinct entities that will separate one day. This directly implies that they are currently unified, which aligns perfectly with the explanation about Chaos:
"Chaos is, in essence, a single world where heaven and earth are fused together."

This concept of a unified state where Heaven and Earth are one is consistent with the idea of the Root as a primordial world state - the origin point from which all things emerge. It's not transcendent to the world, but rather the most fundamental state of the world itself.

The impending separation of Heaven and Earth's laws, and the potential conflict between their rules ( And Ryougi Shiki and Archetype Earth), suggests that the Root is not an unchanging, transcendent realm, but a dynamic part of the world's metaphysical structure. Why the hell would Ryougi's Shiki's origin (which connects her to the root) cause her to be vehemently opposed to the seperation of these laws, and Archetype Earth calling them "our rules", if they weren't unified?

Based on this, we get a clearer picture of the Root as the primordial unified state of existence, from which the differentiated aspects of a world emerge. This is entirely consistent with its role as the "origin" of all things, while also explaining why it's described as being at the "outer edge" or "top" of dimensional theory, rather than beyond it.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Well this was all under my assumption that this would cap the Root at Planetary but if that's not the case then that's a whole other story

 

[Elizhaa]

Honestly, based on the evidence, it seems like the Root would not qualify as 1-A; though, I am also willing to wait for inputs before a final decision.

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Everything12 @Agnaa @Qawsedf234 @Planck69

Are any of you willing to take a look here please?

 

[Agnaa]

Gathering arguments and having a life also exist though. Like atm this is just pushing for this to be applied as quickly as possible (and no one really conclusively voted anyway, everyone's either leaning or just waiting for counterarguments)

Slow and steady wins the race. A tale as old as time

Now that more time has passed, I feel obligated to bring up the Discussion Rules

For verse-specific threads, if the only opposing party does not reply for over 2 weeks without any notice or known/suspected extenuating circumstances, then the moderators should try to get the thread to completion without them, assuming that they'd probably not reply. However, their points should not be discarded, and this should not be treated as that user conceding. Their arguments and votes should be kept in mind while the thread goes on and anybody else is free to argue in their stead.

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Everything12 @Agnaa @Qawsedf234 @Planck69

Are any of you willing to take a look here please?

Sadly I lack the time and expertise to do so.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is unfortunate.

What about you, @Deagonx ?

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Hi, I got permission from Elizhaa to be able to comment here. I do plan on commenting (I disagree with some things in the op and the thread), but I might not be able to for a little bit (finals are coming up, and classes have been difficult damn you @Wankbreaker for creating threads at the most inconvenient times for me /s).

 

[Violatas]

Bump?

 

[LamentSatanael]

Bump; think the 2 week period thing has passed long ago.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Bump; think the 2 week period thing has passed long ago.

It has, the only reason I haven’t immediately jumped on it is due to the fact that I’m focusing on another topic.