Regarding Transonic Pokémon and Large Building level+ Magikarp

[ArbitraryNumbers]

Transonic Pokémo

Okay so first up I have some issues with Transonic Pokemon. The "all Pokemon can dodge sound-based attacks" uses the same logic as "all Pokemon can fight Tyrannitar/Charizard/Groudon/Arceus/etc." I don't even think I need to say anything other than that; Pokemon that are commonly depicted as/stated to be slow like Caterpie and Nosepass, in a verse where Mach 2 is considered impressive (barring legendaries), are ranked as Transonic, and I think that's being way too generous. Yes, the "Lolfeats" attitude we once had was pretty ridiculous, but it's important not to be too comfortable with a "lolscaling" attitude either. Thus, any featless mons who are ranked as Transonic should be downgraded to Unknown until we can find other feats, or just simply scale them to their real world counterparts (i.e. giving Tauros SuperHuman speed by assuming it is around as fast as a real life bull). If you can find any valid speed feats to scale off of, feel free to post them here.

That being said, I do think we can make Supersonic work for the fully-evolved mons, as Pidgeot is stated in its Pokedex entries to fly at Mach 2, and Garchomp is stated to fly at speeds "equal to that of a fighter jet", which caps at around Mach 3-4.

High 8-C Magikarp
I have an issue with Magikarp's High 8-C feat. The math seems fine, but I don't agree with the assumptions being made. The calc assumes that the bomb that cleared out the lake only launched all the water twice the lakes' depth in height, which is a huge lowball, considering that the bomb was "felt all over Sinnoh" (most likely via a minor earthquake or shockwave) and all the water in the lake is gone, save for a few puddles. If we have to lowball this feat to such an immense degree just to avoid getting inflated results, then I suggest we use a different feat. I suggest using my 9-B calc for Magikarp, thus downgrading its durability to Wall level instead of just its AP, as well as any other Pokémon who scale to the karp.

Of course, if there are any feats that unevolved Pokemon have to scale off of, feel free to post them here.

Summary
My proposals are as follows:

• Downgrade all Pokémon who are currently ranked as Transonic to "Unknow" until more valid feats can be found
• Upgrade any fully evolved Pokemon to Supersonic
• Downgrade all Pokémon who are currently ranked as High 8-C via scaling from Magikarp's durability to 9-B
• Discuss and gather better feats to scale off of, if any

I don't think this system is perfect, but I do think these revisions are a good compromise that allows us to put solid rankings on all Pokemon without being too generous with scaling. High 8-C and Transonic Caterpie has never settled well with me.

I'm going to bed right now, so I'll respond to any replies tomorrow.

 

[The_Everlasting]

I can agree with this, but I'll wait to hear what others say.

Honestly, I always felt our Pokemon scaling was too random.

"Oh, this Pokemon scales to this one just because they can both Mega Evolve, even though they're never used in the same sentence otherwise."

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I can agree with the speed things, though not with the Magikarp feat. If it is such a problem, we can simply re-calc it.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Comparing the Transonic feat to scaling to Legendaries is completely ridiculous and unrelated. Any basic Pokémon has access to sound based attacks, and fighting other Pokémon with those attacks is pretty much the norm and required. Though considering it's normally impossible to dodge those move, I'm rather iffy if it counts as a true dodging feat.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Saikou

If that's the case, then perhaps a downgrade to Subsonic, if they are capable of dodging it though rarely.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

My issue wasn't that the calc was incorrect or anything, it's just that it's a huge lowball and assuming that the water in the lake was only lifted twice the lake's depth in height makes no sense considering that the bomb was felt all over Sinnoh.

Plus I was also considering an alternative of dividing the result by the amount of surviving Magikarp, under the presumption that the energy from the bomb was evenly distributed.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

No, pretty sure that any dodging feat from Pokémon moves with 100% accuracy aren't actually dodging. The only way to "dodge" these is by lowering the accuracy of the opponent. This implies that "dodging" is just the opponent missing, not actually dodging.

@AN Why though? It's not an AP feat. It's a durability feat. I know that some magikarp may have softened the blow for other ones, but you can't just divide it by all the magikarps present.

 

[Ryandswagger]

In terms of speed all feats of those should only be scaled off of Magicarp if he has a speed feat. Due to him being the weakest Pokémon of all time any Pokémon is automatically greater than him.

And Mach 2 Podgeot refers to traverse speed not reaction speed. I mean even relatively slow Pokémon have shown lightning dodging feats. Yet clearly not having the travel speed for it.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

@Saik

I'm comparing the legendary scaling because it uses the same logic: "Pokemon A can hold its own against X attack/other Pokemon within gameplay, so they scale". Stuff like this leads to strange and inflated results like Caterpie being Transonic despite being portrayed as almost the exact opposite every time it is shown on screen outside of the games' turn-based combat.

Don't even get me started on "Only-moves a few centimeters a year" Nosepass.

 

[FanofRPGs]

I agree with the first speed revision, seems perfectly fine. The second one? IDK. 8-C Magikarp is wonky though, considering your average fishermen commonly get them.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Caterpie has literally no portrayal of speed in the games. Not any more than other Pokémon. Hell they aren't even specifically more weak than other single stage Pokémon.

You do know that travel speed =/= combat speed, right? Unless you want to argue that Nosepass is literally ********.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Saik is right.

@Ever. Pokémon capable of Mega Evolving are scaled to one another because of the fact that the energy used to do that is present to say the least, and has been shown to be extremely painful, sometimes seen as torture. You need a certain AP/durability to not allow explicitly painful High 7-A energy from killing you.. And that's the only "random" scaling scenario.

About the Magikarp being High 8-C ind durability thing and fishermen being able to get them. Touhou has island level humans and Digimon has some universal+ to multiversal+ humans with infinite speed. Heck, even Ash has wall level feats and Jessie and James have small town level feats. Wouldn't be beneath us to excuse that.

Speed. I've been meaning to revise that for a while. Because Transonic is a massive lowball when several moves and Pokémon are the speed of catching fire, escape velocity, lightning speed, or even lightspeed. Writers Don't Know Math trope exists for a reason. Otherwise Kirby is mountain level, Flash (Wally West) is relativistic, and DBS is just reaching lightspeed. Heck, another thing said is that lightning speed for Pheromosa is the highest speed detected for any Pokémon, even though Shaymin, Rayquaza, Kyogre, and of course the Creation Trio have feats surpassing that.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree with the first speed revision, seems perfectly fine. The second one? IDK. 8-C Magikarp is wonky though, considering your average fishermen commonly get them.

That's not a good reason, tho. Even at 9-B fisherman wouldn't be able to capture him.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

Yes, it is described as weak and slow.

Su: "When attacked by bird Pokémon, it resists by releasing a terrifically strong odor from its antennae, but it often becomes their prey."


Moo: "It's easy to catch and grows quickly, making it one of the top recommendations for novice Pokémon Trainers."


PokePark 2: "Their steps are slow, but they are quite aggressive and hate to lose. They are second to none in spirit."

I don't think Transonic is a reasonable ranking for a Pokémon who is referred to as "slow" in a verse where Mach 2 is considered impressive for fully-evolved Pokémon.

My issue with Nosepass is that it would supposedly be ranked at all around Transonic despite obvious contradictions, not just combat speed.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

Also, none of the Magikarps show any indication of being in the epicenter, so each of them is only taking a smaller part of the explosion.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Going by what Cal said above, I don't think that reiterating the Mach 2 statement is a good argument, if there are so many feats which are far above them.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

There are Magikarp shown very close to Azelf's cavern, the most likely place the explosion happened.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

Well again I'm not okay with using the arguments of "Every Pokemon can dodge X move in gameplay", as it uses the same logic as "Any Pokemon can defeat Tyrannitar" or "Any Pokemon can survive a Thunder". It leads to scaling abuse.

If it's a feat that's performed outside of the turned-based combat where things are ambiguous, then that's okay with me. But I'm not comfortable with the "Any Pokemon can dodge lightning from Pikachu in gameplay" type arguments.

Okay, if that's the case with the Magikarp feat, then I'm alright with it. But I still think the feat has been lowballed dramatically in the process of being calc'd, as we accepted some strange assumptions just for the sake of not getting a result that was too high.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Not a good comparison. Tyranitar and Thunder aren't things a beginner trainer is gonna see until at least the last two gyms. Growl is something a trainer will see literally within their first Pokémon battle.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

I don't know if it's been mentioned but doesn't like a 100 magikarp in the anime have a town feat together? Not sure if this changes anything, Probably not but it's worth a mention.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Furthermore, here's an example of a Pokémon being able to do things much quicker than Mach 2.

Ampharos is known to use real light in its tail, and is able to been seen from outer space and is used in lighthouses. It can learn two moves described to be light: Confuse Ray and Signal Beam. And it can learn Ion Deluge, a move that is heavily implied to be capable of being able to spread electrons, which moves at a pretty darn close to SoL speed (redundant, I know). Things like the anime, Mystery Dungeon cutscenes, and Pokken show that Pokémon aren't sitting ducks when fighting.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/the-weakest-of-them-all-pok-mon.22380/

Yes, a group of about 100 Magikarp did a Town level feat. Doesn't scale to single Magikarps, tho.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Wouldn't it just be divided by 100? I mean I'm not saying make them 1 kiloton each since that seems like a huge outlier but I just thought I'd mention it.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

Alright, I'll concede as far as Mach 2 Pidgeot is concerned. I was only suggesting it as an upgrade for all fully evolved Pokemon instead of Transonic.

But I'm still really iffy on the Magikarp feat. It's not an issue of a calculation error or the fact that fishermen hunt it, but an issue with the assumptions that were used. Saying that the water in the lake was only lifted twice its depth in height is a huge understatement considering that there's no water left aside from a few puddles after the explosion, and the bomb was felt all over Sinnoh. It seems that this assumption was made just for the sake of lowballing, and if we have to go to such lengths to avoid getting inflated results then I think we should use a different feat.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

I'm going to go to bed now, so I'll respond to any further comments tomorrow.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Don't get me wrong. Until I get headway on upping their speed considerably, they should be scaled to Pidgeot or Garchomp. Heck, why they're not scaled to Hitmonchan right now kinda baffles me.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Wouldn't it just be divided by 100?
I mean I'm not saying make them 1 kiloton each since that seems like a huge outlier but I just thought I'd mention it.

The Magikarp were all at the verge of evolving, too. So it doesn't scale to baseline Magikarp.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Fair enough.

 

[Dark649]

Heck, why they're not scaled to Hitmonchan right now kinda baffles me.

Because each Pokémon has their own speed. Garchomp was listed to have Supersonic+ speed and Dodrio was listed to Subsonic speed for examples.

 

[CrackerVolley]

I'm ok w/ Transonic. Deosn't really matter anyway due to speed equalized

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

Just because we can equalize speed doesn't mean it's okay to just rank Pokemon whatever we want them to. This wiki is primarily a character indexing website, so accuracy is important.

 

[CrackerVolley]

Fair enough

 

[Antvasima]

Just because we can equalize speed doesn't mean it's okay to just rank Pokemon whatever we want them to. This wiki is primarily a character indexing website, so accuracy is important.

I strongly agree about this sentiment.

 

[CrackerVolley]

OK I GET IT!

 

[Dark649]

Is Massively Hypersonic+ Zebstrika still accepted?.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It might be hyperbole.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

"Lightning speed" is almost always hyperbole, but the Pokedex entries in this case go as far as to say that it makes the sound of thunder when it runs at full speed.

The sound of thunder is caused when the sudden increase in temperature and pressure caused by the lightning bolt makes the air expand rapidly enough, creating a sonic boom.

I don't know if that counts as Massively Hypersonic+, but perhaps it could be a Building level+ feat, since it generates sufficient energy to cause the change in heat and pressure that a lightning bolt does.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

So, not a hyperbole?

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

Probably not hyperbole, but I don't know whether or not generating comparable energy to lightning counts as MHS+.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I mean, if it has factors of lightning and is stated to be the speed of it...

(Hype that unlike a certain verse, there's reason to believe that it's not a hyperbole ovo. Hi Dragon. (This is just a joke))