Regarding the Lake Guardians

[Cropfist]

Should they really be unknown individually? Even though the idea's that they can only match the Creation Trio together, it would still make no sense for either of them to be literally infinitely weaker or slower on their own.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Makes sense, but the lake trio were captured by Team Galactic. If they were that fast or strong, they could've literally done nothing to the Lake Trio.

 

[Cropfist]

Likely because Pokemon runs on extreme amounts of PIS. The player in Platinum canonically defeats Giratina as well, but he's still universal+.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Well, the player is tested by Giratina, but this happens in all three Sinnoh games. It's a different Pokemon in each of the other games. I will leave PIS as a very open option.

 

[FictionalBlade101]

We are just talking about game canon lake trio right?

Also yea i would just call it PIS.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm willing to change my view to it being PIS and upgrading them to low 2-C with infinite speed depending on what others say to sway me. Because it's very likely to be PIS. It is Pokemon we're talking about here.

 

[FictionalBlade101]

Is there a key for anime Lake Trio? Because in the anime all 3 members are capable of going up against BOTH Dialga and Palkia's sealed forms

Uxie and Mesprit effected them with their powers and then all 3 of them sent the 2 of them away to another dimension. Azelf should likely do that as well since it equals the other 2 members IIRC

 

[Blahblah9755]

Would 1/3 of low 2C be considered low 2C or very high high 3A?

 

[Unclechairman]

I don't watch the anime anymore, so I have no idea how they're portrayed there, but in Platinum, Cyrus summoned both Dialga and Palkia, and the trio couldn't do shit until Giratina intervened. If they were capable of matching both in the anime, it would contradict Platinum.

We don't have a key for the anime versions, probably because most or all of the profiles are game and anime composite or at least assumed to be. Last time I checked, Dialga and Palkia's profiles reference the anime as justification for their tiering, which is fine there since it doesn't contradict their showings in the games, but if what you're saying about the anime Lake Trio is true, that sounds like an outright contradiction.

The reason I pegged them as Unknown individually (I made their profiles) is because they have no notable showings that I know of individually. The only thing I could think of to that effect would be Azelf's Pokedex entry which states "It sleeps at the bottom of a lake to keep the world in balance", which is vague and can't be used to discern anything about it's actual power output. I initially had them as possibly 3-B based on the idea that their individual power is a third of what it is when they're all together (basic math), but there's nothing proving this, and there's always the possibility that they just have a unique synergy that greatly increases their power when they're all together.

 

[FictionalBlade101]

I don't watch the anime anymore, so I have no idea how they're portrayed there, but in Platinum, Cyrus summoned both Dialga and Palkia, and the trio couldn't do shit until Giratina intervened. If they were capable of matching both in the anime, it would contradict Platinum.
We don't have a key for the anime versions, probably because most or all of the profiles are game and anime composite or at least assumed to be. Last time I checked, Dialga and Palkia's profiles reference the anime as justification for their tiering, which is fine there since it doesn't contradict their showings in the games, but if what you're saying about the anime Lake Trio is true, that sounds like an outright contradiction.

Well it might be more hax then AP or power

After Cyrus was defeated and Dialga and Palkia were still being harmed by the Red Chain, Each of the Trio individually did something to help them

Azelf one shot the black hole they made, Uxie used its power over knowledge to communicate with Dialga and Palkia to calm them down since they were out of control and couldnt listen to anyone or anything and then Mesprit used its power to take away the pain they were getting from the Red Chains influence

then all 3 use their power at once to stuff the both of them into another dimension, maybe back to their realms

I dunno if this is either hax or AP. But they might have endless energy or stamina considering Cyrus said this to them, in quotes:

"Azelf, Mesprit and Uxie! Hear me now! Transfer your ancient powers to the Adamant and Lustrious orbs! And using the infinite original powers, connect Time and Space!"


And they proceed as planned to summon Dialga and Palkia

 

[Unclechairman]

It doesn't sound like any of them outright overpowered Dialga and Palkia. Azelf just canceled one attack, and the rest of their efforts were dedicated toward making them calm down and stopping their rampage then actually fighting them.

 

[Unclechairman]

"Azelf, Mesprit and Uxie! Hear me now! Transfer your ancient powers to the Adamant and Lustrious orbs! And using the infinite original powers, connect Time and Space!"

Most likely hyperbole. "Infinite" gets used far more lightly than it should be.

 

[FictionalBlade101]

It doesn't sound like any of them outright overpowered Dialga and Palkia. Azelf just canceled one attack, and the rest of their efforts were dedicated toward making them calm down and stopping their rampage then actually fighting them.

Do u mean individually or all together when u say it didnt look like they overpowered them? Because at least together all 3 of them stuffed them into a different dimension and if they were really weaker than Dialga OR Palkia then they would have just gone back to their own realms on their own without having the lake guardians take them away for them.

 

[FictionalBlade101]

"Azelf, Mesprit and Uxie! Hear me now! Transfer your ancient powers to the Adamant and Lustrious orbs! And using the infinite original powers, connect Time and Space!"

Most likely hyperbole. "Infinite" gets used far more lightly than it should be.

When has Cyrus or even any leader of an organization in pokemon have exaggerated a legendaries abilities? Cyrus has spent years researching on how to control Dialga and Palkia and summon them to the human world. I agree Infinite gets used a lot but at the same time its kind of ridiculous to say Cyrus would exaggerate

 

[Unclechairman]

Stuffing them into another dimension (BFR) shouldn't take nearly as much power as outright overpowering them, and considering what you said Uxie and Mesprit did, I don't think Dialga and Palkia had any motivation to resist

 

[FictionalBlade101]

Stuffing them into another dimension (BFR) shouldn't take nearly as much power as outright overpowering them, and considering what you said Uxie and Mesprit did, I don't think Dialga and Palkia had any motivation to resist

Yes but i think this time might be a different tune. What i mean by stuff is they didnt just teleport them away, it looks as if they turned both of them into their unsealed forms and then stuffed them away through the portal they made. Tho i guess it might be BFR

Well its not that they didnt its that they couldnt. Before the lake trio did anything Dialga and Palkia were just in complete pain from the red chains control as they didnt break free from it yet so until they were set free i believe they werent specifically paying THEM any attention at all.

 

[Unclechairman]

I'm afraid I'm having trouble understanding what you're trying to say in your second paragraph. Are you saying the trio outright disabled Dialga and Palkia, hence making it so they couldn't resist? Because from what you told me before, they were just trying to comfort them.

 

[FictionalBlade101]

I'm afraid I'm having trouble understanding what you're trying to say in your second paragraph. Are you saying the trio outright disabled Dialga and Palkia, hence making it so they couldn't resist? Because from what you told me before, they were just trying to comfort them.

My bad. No not disabled i believe just calmed down. The red chains influence was disabling Dialga and Pallkia from doing anything such as escape or hear anything calling out to them so that was when the lake trio were needed to cancel out the chains effects on them and free them. With the exception of Azelf, Uxie (and well Brock) used its power to teleapthically communicate with the both of them while they were in pain from the red chain, telling them that Cyrus was gone so they had nothing to worry about anymore. Then right after that Mesprit (and Dawn) go up to the both of them and uses its power to take away any pain they got (could be pain or damage nullifcation hax of some sorts).

Sorry if i confused you

 

[Talonmask]

It was suggested by Cyrus within the game that all three were required to pacify one, and that all three together would not be enough to handle both Dialga and Palkia.

There's no way to gauge their power individually, as all we know is that there would be no contest if one of them went against one of the Creation Trio.

 

[FictionalBlade101]

I have a theory. Could it be that the lake trio, when Cyrus extracted the jewels on their tails to make the red chain, have gotten weaker? Which is why only all 3 can subdue one?

The anime is a perfect example of this. In the anime, Cyrus didnt need the Lake Trio to make the chain. He used the veilstone city meteorite which apparently had the very core substance of the universe

So in other words

Anime- Not using them to make the red chain = being able to restrict BOTH Dialga and Palkia

Games- Using them to make the red chain= being able to restrict Dialga OR Palkia

anyone else agree or no?

 

[Antvasima]

It may be best to ask LordAizenSama about this. I think that he handles the Pokemon statistics.

 

[Cropfist]

Aizen did leave input but he removed his reply. I have asked TheMightyRegulator though.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I'm not aware of the scene where they countain them, so I can't say much.

But considering they are all beings first created by Arceus and existing all over the Multiverse, I'd say it's safe to say they are at least in Tier 2 individually.

 

[FictionalBlade101]

doesnt Azelfs pokedex entry states that by living in a lake it keeps the pokemon world in balance?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Just checking, it seems to be true.

"You're sleeping all day!" "And I do more for the world than you so shut up"

Tho I'm not sure if it warrants Tier 2 on itself.

 

[FictionalBlade101]

Well isnt Azelf an omnipresent being like the creation trio? It IS the concept of willpower afterall so it should exist in all places of the multiverse. And if it's presence is what keeps the world in balalnce that should also count for said multiverse right?

 

[Unclechairman]

Even if the concepts embodied by the Lake Trio existed all throughout the multiverse, I don't think it would translate to direct AP, more likely as hax. Dialga, Palkia and Giratina embody fundamental aspects of existence itself, which apply to everything, while the concepts embodied by the Lake Trio only apply to living beings.

 

[Unclechairman]

doesnt Azelfs pokedex entry states that by living in a lake it keeps the pokemon world in balance?

Already mentioned this. It's too vague to discern actual statistics from.

 

[FictionalBlade101]

Even if the concepts embodied by the Lake Trio existed all throughout the multiverse, I don't think it would translate to direct AP, more likely as hax. Dialga, Palkia and Giratina embody fundamental aspects of existence itself, which apply to everything, while the concepts embodied by the Lake Trio only apply to living beings.

Hmm good point. By by "living things" that should include the trio too right?

Also even in a multiverse, liviing things are more than likely endless since a multiverse is universes filled with every possibility as such

Btw does anyone agree with my theory on the lake trio or no?

 

[Unclechairman]

You mean the Creation Trio? They were able to affect them with their powers, weren't they? Though, I still say that isn't enough justification for them being 2-C individually, though, since they used hax and not raw power.

The Pokemon multiverse has not been confirmed to be endless, so the second point is moot.

As for the theory, you mean the one that states the trio were weakened by having the crystals that form the Red Chain extracted from them? This is just a theory, and with little evidence. The only thing that might support it is the fact that when you find them in the Team Galactic HQ before heading to Mt. Coronet, examining the machines they're in before releasing them reveals they're all in tremendous pain. This could be the result of having the crystals extracted from them, but it's just as likely from the machine itself. Furthermore, they had quite a bit of time to recuperate while you and Team Galactic climb up Mt. Coronet.

 

[FictionalBlade101]

You mean the Creation Trio? They were able to affect them with their powers, weren't they? Though, I still say that isn't enough justification for them being 2-C individually, though, since they used hax and not raw power.
The Pokemon multiverse has not been confirmed to be endless, so the second point is moot.

As for the theory, you mean the one that states the trio were weakened by having the crystals that form the Red Chain extracted from them? This is just a theory, and with little evidence. The only thing that might support it is the fact that when you find them in the Team Galactic HQ before heading to Mt. Coronet, examining the machines they're in before releasing them reveals they're all in tremendous pain. This could be the result of having the crystals extracted from them, but it's just as likely from the machine itself. Furthermore, they had quite a bit of time to recuperate while you and Team Galactic climb up Mt. Coronet.

Isnt there theories about the multiverse being endless? I know that still wouldnt confirm anything but is it not even implied at all?


Well if we count the anime team galatic arc then i'd say that shows evidence of it. The lake trio in the anime werent needed to make the chain and after stopping them 2 out of the 3 effect both with their powers and then all 3 stuff the both of them away to another dimension by turning them back into their unsealed forms

tho your point sounds more reasonable

 

[Unclechairman]

It's more likely that's just the anime doing it's own thing, as it frequently takes liberties with what's in the games.

You'll need more than an implication for the multiverse being endless, because if it is, then the Creation Trio, the Lake Trio (when together, of course) and Arceus would need to be upgraded to 2-A since they embody and control fundamental dimensions of all existence.

 

[FictionalBlade101]

It's more likely that's just the anime doing it's own thing, as it frequently takes liberties with what's in the games.
You'll need more than an implication for the multiverse being endless, because if it is, then the Creation Trio, the Lake Trio (when together, of course) and Arceus would need to be upgraded to 2-A since they embody and control fundamental dimensions of all existence.

I dont think so because the anime in some aspects at least doesnt contradict the main canon. I think this site uses it to help justify the ratings of the creation trio on their keys

We dont know if it is and all i said so far is a theory so its not confirming anything just yet. However, while i was rewatching some of the X/Y anime episodes i stummbled upon the Reflection Cave episode where Ash and Pikachu travel into a universe or the "mirror world" where all the characters from ash's universe have opposite personalities in their universe such as mirror ash being a wimp and scared to battle, and team rocket in the mirror world being heroes instead of villains. One of Ash's friends from the mirror world states a legend that there are as many alternate dimensions as there are mirrors within the cave. That the mirrors themselves are portals to these dimensions. And they seem to be separate space-times and not apart of the same 3D space because one of Ash's friends, an inventor, planned on using a machine that can warp space and time to go to the mirror world and find ash. This doesnt confirm infinite universes but while watching the episode i was counting how many mirrors there were and there were hundreds upon hundreds of them between both universes. Dunno if this changes anything however

 

[Unclechairman]

I noted that in one of my posts above. It's one of the cases where the anime backs up what's shown in the games. However, the anime may be painting a different picture with the Lake Trio, so we're using caution here.

If we take that statement literally, it still would fall into the 2-C category, as 2-C goes up to 1000 universes. So it doesn't change the tiering, but it may still change their overall ranking, as last time I checked, the Pokemon multiverse was taken as containing at least 6 universes, and that's what the Creation Trio are scaled to.

 

[FictionalBlade101]

I noted that in one of my posts above. It's one of the cases where the anime backs up what's shown in the games. However, the anime may be painting a different picture with the Lake Trio, so we're using caution here.
If we take that statement literally, it still would fall into the 2-C category, as 2-C goes up to 1000 universes. So it doesn't change the tiering, but it may still change their overall ranking, as last time I checked, the Pokemon multiverse was taken as containing at least 6 universes, and that's what the Creation Trio are scaled to.

I mean i could try and send screenshots of each mirror i find if u want me to do that to show proof.

 

[Unclechairman]

If you want to try to get the Creation Trio upgraded, you should probably do so in another thread. And I'm not the guy you need to convince. You'll probably have to bother the staff.

 

[FictionalBlade101]

If you want to try to get the Creation Trio upgraded, you should probably do so in another thread. And I'm not the guy you need to convince. You'll probably have to bother the staff.

Oh I know that lol i meant for just for you and this thread specifically

 

[Unclechairman]

Just make a new thread, post the evidence, and if I want to know, I'll look at that thread. Posting it here would just derail the thread.

 

[Unclechairman]

Never mind that; the mirror universes are already acknowledged in Arceus' profile.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Dragonmasterxyz brought it to attentio.

Well, the player is tested by Giratina, but this happens in all three Sinnoh games. It's a different Pokemon in each of the other games. I will leave PIS as a very open option.

No such thing. They are concepts. Even Pokemon Super Mystery Dungeon, something that occurs in a completely different Universe and continuity, implies this is the case.

Would 1/3 of low 2C be considered low 2C or very high high 3A?

High 3-A, considering it's 4 dimensional power on a less than universal scale, but still of a significant portion. It's not a bad proposal.

Hmm good point. By by "living things" that should include the trio too right?

The Creation Trio? No. They are regarded as "alive, yet not alive" and in the myths the Lake Trio were referred to as living beings whilst the Creation Trio…weren't.

The only quantifiable feat for the Lake Trio I can recall is what was brought up earlier:

Azelf destroyed a singularity formed that was going to destroy Sinnoh which is basically island level. I like Blah's proposal, though it might be better to place a "Possibly High 3-A" after the island level rating as we have no idea if this is the case. In fact, it's entirely possible their joining boosts their power by a disproportionate degree.

Same for their durability.

Their durability (together) is noted to be Universe level+ yet no reasoning is listed in their profiles.

In Pokemon Diamond and Pearl Adventure (not to be confused with the other manga) they were completely unaffected by Dialga's Resetting of the Universe. This should probably be added.

No clue what to do about their lifting strength and striking strength statistics though.

Their range should be changed to Multi-Universal for:

A: Being capable of summoning and transporting the creation trio this distance.

B: Creating and distributing spirit.

Their intelligence should be listed as extremely high, powerscaling from Giratina as they were the ones who helped the player pass the puzzle it was theorized to have created as a test.

Their speed should be upgraded to Mach 279.6 (MHS flight speed).

• Cough*

In my opinion…