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Regarding inconsistent showings for DBS Saiyans.
- Thread starter Omegas03
- Start date
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This is the perfect thread to discuss the major problem I have with the idea that Goku got stronger after UIO1.
To start off, in episode 93 SSJ2 Caulifla one shot LSSJ Kale's attack. In episode 100 SSJ2 Goku and Caulifla fight equally with Goku having a slight advantage. In that same episode Kale kinda ***** on Goku. Jiren then proceeds to one shot Kale. Episode 113 base Goku and SSJ2 Caulifla also fight kinda equally. However as soon as Goku goes SSJ2 they're fighting like he didn't transform at all. In that same episode Kale goes SSJ2. After that Goku, Kale and Caulifla are all just pretty comparable.
Now here are my problems with this.
One more thing. At 3:00 Jiren has the highest energy Vegeta senses until now this would include enraged Kefla. Blue Goku is clashing with this Jiren even with his eyes closed momentarily.
To start off, in episode 93 SSJ2 Caulifla one shot LSSJ Kale's attack. In episode 100 SSJ2 Goku and Caulifla fight equally with Goku having a slight advantage. In that same episode Kale kinda ***** on Goku. Jiren then proceeds to one shot Kale. Episode 113 base Goku and SSJ2 Caulifla also fight kinda equally. However as soon as Goku goes SSJ2 they're fighting like he didn't transform at all. In that same episode Kale goes SSJ2. After that Goku, Kale and Caulifla are all just pretty comparable.
Now here are my problems with this.
- Kale is not anywhere near blue level or even god level.
- legendary Kale was outclassed by ssj2 Caulifla on their first transformations.
- Legendary Kale got one shot by Jiren while Hit, who's ssg level, took several hits from Jiren and even lasted an entire episode.
- Base Goku is having trouble against U3 robots but Caulifla bodies them.
- Base Goku scaling to ssj2 Caulifla makes zero sense. Firstly because of the point directly above. Secondly, he went from fighting equally with ssj2 Caulifla in base to fighting equally with her in ssj2 himself.
- Ssj Kefla was stated to rival the spirit and one shot Goku. If Goku got stronger he would've tanked an attack on that level.
- Ssj2 Kefla at 2:31 was stated to might have surpassed his previous UIO level. This implies that they're stronger but not 50-100x baseline like some imply.
One more thing. At 3:00 Jiren has the highest energy Vegeta senses until now this would include enraged Kefla. Blue Goku is clashing with this Jiren even with his eyes closed momentarily.
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Also @Asura. Where do you place base Goku Black at?
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We're already aware of a lot of inconsistencies seen in Tournament of Power. I can agree that Kale is not as strong as Goku's SSB form in the ToP saga, but Kale and Caulifa are Universal for other reasons. Hit is defiantly the strongest of U6 both the U6 saga and his sparring with Goku. And the stuff he had against Dyspo and casual Jiren.
But Goku struggling to fight those robots was due to him being severely exhausted, and his base form was dominant over SS2 Kaulifa due to his skill rather than raw power or speed. But he was trying to teach Kaulifa how to be a better fighter. Goku did eventually get a big Zenkai boost after recovering from his 2nd UIO2 depletion however.
But Goku struggling to fight those robots was due to him being severely exhausted, and his base form was dominant over SS2 Kaulifa due to his skill rather than raw power or speed. But he was trying to teach Kaulifa how to be a better fighter. Goku did eventually get a big Zenkai boost after recovering from his 2nd UIO2 depletion however.
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As for rosé itself. Is it a ssj or ssb form?
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According to some guide, it's Super Saiyan. This fits with the relative power scale, but I don't remember if Goku Black was technically considered a god in his base form.
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It fits a lot with the scale actually. Base Goku black is a 100 times that by 50 and you get 5,000. DBS Broly has ssg around 10x ssj and the manga has ssb as 10x ssg. That's too perfect imo.ByAsura said:
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Lets not get into a debate about multipliers.
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I'm just saying it's pretty coincidental.
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I had to whittle the list down a lot. That's why her feat section is so small, but roughtly the same length as the outliers.
Also, I'm planning to revise some Frieza to Cell scaling DBZ.
No Training
There's actually evidence that Android 18 is significantly stronger than her Android Saga self: during the Tournament of Power, 18 blitzed Shin faster than he could react and terrified him.
Android 18 wants to Kill Supreme Kai
If you don't understand why this would make her way more powerful, then I'll break it down; according to Daizenshuu 7, the Cell Juniors are equal in power to Vegeta and Trunks at the time, which Cell seems to confirm.
Piccolo was shown to be the only one standing alonside Trunks and Vegeta, and he's way more powerful than before he went into the Time Chamber, even while using his weights. Piccolo, as you know, was comparable to 17 and superior to 18. Buu Saga Piccolo (seemingly having trained in the 7 year gap) is at least comparable to his Post-Hyperbolic Time Chamber self during the Cell Saga, and Shin is way more powerful.
Basically, Android 18 (Android Saga) < Android 17 = Piccolo (Kami) <<< Imperfect Cell (Humans Absorbed) << Semi-Perfect Cell < Piccolo (Post-Time Chamber/Buu Saga) < Cell Jr < Shin < Android 18 (Tournament).
Plot Introduced Stupidity/Outlier
PIS
Krillin And 18 VS Shosa
Logically, it actually makes more sense for this fight to be Plot Introduced Stupidity; Krillin and 18 are husband and wife, so the creator of this episode wanted a sort of touching moment between the two of them (god, this is awful to write), such as fighting together against a common enemy. It also gives Krillin a window of opportunity to be eliminated. The same goes for the fight with Majora, which happens in the same episode.
There's also the fight between 18 and Ribrianne. You'll notice that 17 is also fighting Rozie here and struggling, so it's most likely bad powerscaling, especially since this turns into another husband and wife moment for Krillin and 18 right after.
Outlier
There's a limit to how far this excuse will go. Generally her feats of grossly overpowering Large Star level and Universe level characters grossly outweigh any scaling to Krillin. Here's a small list
She has just as much evidence for Universe level as Large Star level, so what about Large Star level, possibly Universe level? Cocotte is exactly the same as well, as are most of the higher Pride Troopers.
Also, I'm planning to revise some Frieza to Cell scaling DBZ.
No Training
There's actually evidence that Android 18 is significantly stronger than her Android Saga self: during the Tournament of Power, 18 blitzed Shin faster than he could react and terrified him.
Android 18 wants to Kill Supreme Kai
If you don't understand why this would make her way more powerful, then I'll break it down; according to Daizenshuu 7, the Cell Juniors are equal in power to Vegeta and Trunks at the time, which Cell seems to confirm.
- Children which perfect-form Cell births through his tail. In the story, he gives birth to seven. Their appearance is like perfect-form Cell, only small and cute. However, their power was equal to Vegeta and Trunks at the time, and their personalities were cruelty itself.
Piccolo was shown to be the only one standing alonside Trunks and Vegeta, and he's way more powerful than before he went into the Time Chamber, even while using his weights. Piccolo, as you know, was comparable to 17 and superior to 18. Buu Saga Piccolo (seemingly having trained in the 7 year gap) is at least comparable to his Post-Hyperbolic Time Chamber self during the Cell Saga, and Shin is way more powerful.
Basically, Android 18 (Android Saga) < Android 17 = Piccolo (Kami) <<< Imperfect Cell (Humans Absorbed) << Semi-Perfect Cell < Piccolo (Post-Time Chamber/Buu Saga) < Cell Jr < Shin < Android 18 (Tournament).
Plot Introduced Stupidity/Outlier
PIS
Krillin And 18 VS Shosa
Logically, it actually makes more sense for this fight to be Plot Introduced Stupidity; Krillin and 18 are husband and wife, so the creator of this episode wanted a sort of touching moment between the two of them (god, this is awful to write), such as fighting together against a common enemy. It also gives Krillin a window of opportunity to be eliminated. The same goes for the fight with Majora, which happens in the same episode.
There's also the fight between 18 and Ribrianne. You'll notice that 17 is also fighting Rozie here and struggling, so it's most likely bad powerscaling, especially since this turns into another husband and wife moment for Krillin and 18 right after.
Outlier
There's a limit to how far this excuse will go. Generally her feats of grossly overpowering Large Star level and Universe level characters grossly outweigh any scaling to Krillin. Here's a small list
- Tanked Tupper and Zoiray's combination attack with little damage, and then defeats the former with ease using a single arm. The latter contributed to the beam struggle between the Pride Troppers and Kale/Caulifa, so he's probably mid-level.
- Android 18 and 17 do roughtly the same damage of Briarra's notably tough body.
- 18 withstands in the pretty black hole, with Post-UIO Goku and 17 expressing similar trouble.
She has just as much evidence for Universe level as Large Star level, so what about Large Star level, possibly Universe level? Cocotte is exactly the same as well, as are most of the higher Pride Troopers.
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I'm more neutral but leaning towards still siding with AKM Sama and Matt. And while Outlier does get thrown around too much I agree, there is still quite a bit of inconsistencies. Yes, 18 training with Krillin suddenly making her jump so much makes no sense, but it's even more arbitrary if it was only her and not both of them that became that strong.
And actually, massive jumps based on lazy writing has admittedly been a thing even during the original Dragon Ball saga. Example, Goku training for three years made him jump from 8-B to At least 8-B (Would have been 8-A had it not been for Tien's downgrade). And he needed the Ultra Divine Water to jump from 8-B to 7-B+. Where as Krillin, Tien, and Yamcha were able to jump from being weaker than "At least 8-B Goku" to being 7-A (At leasy 7-B in Chiaotzu's case). Goku also trained with Kami for three years to jump from 7-B+ to 6-B, when training in one year made the underdogs jump from 7-A to 5-B on levels greater than Raditz; who was superior to the combined might of Goku and Piccolo at the time. So stupid tier jumps based on seemingly basic levels of training aren't new to Dragon Ball and isn't just something Saiyans get away with.
18 is definitely a lot stronger than Supreme Kai, and that's already pretty much proven by Tien destroying Kachi Katchin. And thus far stronger than she was in Android Saga. So 18 is pretty much the hardest character in Universe 7 to tier. She's far more powerful than Krillin, but at the same time, she's way weaker than 17. It's obvious she's pretty much holding back whenever she's next to Krillin and fighting fodder enemies. But at the same time, 17 is obviously holding back when he's fighting 18 level enemies for the same reason.
I at the very least thing she should be upgraded to 4-B via showing she has fought on par with enemies superior to Napapa who is in turn comparable to Basil, but I'm still uncertain about 3-A given that Kaulifa and Kale also have their share of PIS moments.
And actually, massive jumps based on lazy writing has admittedly been a thing even during the original Dragon Ball saga. Example, Goku training for three years made him jump from 8-B to At least 8-B (Would have been 8-A had it not been for Tien's downgrade). And he needed the Ultra Divine Water to jump from 8-B to 7-B+. Where as Krillin, Tien, and Yamcha were able to jump from being weaker than "At least 8-B Goku" to being 7-A (At leasy 7-B in Chiaotzu's case). Goku also trained with Kami for three years to jump from 7-B+ to 6-B, when training in one year made the underdogs jump from 7-A to 5-B on levels greater than Raditz; who was superior to the combined might of Goku and Piccolo at the time. So stupid tier jumps based on seemingly basic levels of training aren't new to Dragon Ball and isn't just something Saiyans get away with.
18 is definitely a lot stronger than Supreme Kai, and that's already pretty much proven by Tien destroying Kachi Katchin. And thus far stronger than she was in Android Saga. So 18 is pretty much the hardest character in Universe 7 to tier. She's far more powerful than Krillin, but at the same time, she's way weaker than 17. It's obvious she's pretty much holding back whenever she's next to Krillin and fighting fodder enemies. But at the same time, 17 is obviously holding back when he's fighting 18 level enemies for the same reason.
I at the very least thing she should be upgraded to 4-B via showing she has fought on par with enemies superior to Napapa who is in turn comparable to Basil, but I'm still uncertain about 3-A given that Kaulifa and Kale also have their share of PIS moments.
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It's never stated she trained with Krillin, though. It's repeatedly proven that she didn't, such as Krillin's personal training in that strange forest. Also, it's implied that 18 became stronger in the Golden Frieza saga as well.
18 is definitely way weaker than 17 and Super Saiyan Blue-level characters.
18 is definitely way weaker than 17 and Super Saiyan Blue-level characters.
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There have been times where you can see some sparring matches she had with Krillin, or at least one instance.
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- Thread starter
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Piccolo got from High 4-C to 3-A from the RoF to U6 arcs by merely training some days with Gohan, That's is equally as bad as 18 getting to 3-A by sparring with Krillin for even more time yet it's allowed.
I don't think a lack of training should be used as justification, Gohan recovered his Mystic form and skyrocketed to SSB tier out of nowhere, lol.
I don't think a lack of training should be used as justification, Gohan recovered his Mystic form and skyrocketed to SSB tier out of nowhere, lol.
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The difference is that Gohan and Piccolo both went all out and thus had enough seriousness for training, it's still bad writing much like Frieza jumping from Low 4-C to 3-A. But it at least makes more sense given both of them were serious about their training. 18 was just casual against Krillin.
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I think 'High 4-C, possibly 3-A' or '4-B, possibly 3-A' would be a good compromise for 18 if we can't just get plain 3-A.
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Could this be applied at this point? Asura's suggestion of 'High 4-C, possibly 3-A' seems like the perfect compromise, and there hasn't really been any disagreements with it.
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Variable tiers and Dragon Ball with the "At least, Possibly" sounds like something very new to me. But I know if anyone gets it, it's 18.
Once again, I agree that plenty of characters should at the very least get an upgrade to 4-B via being superior to the likes of Basil and Napapa. So if there's going to be a variable, I think "At least 4-B, possibly 3-A would be better. Considering that even the fodder Pride Troopers were considered "Harder to beat" than Napapa, High 4-C probably should be axed for them.
Although, I prefer to wait for AKM Sama, because we've always been so hesitant to give the 3-A upgrades for reasons mentioned countless times by Matt and AKM on other threads.
Once again, I agree that plenty of characters should at the very least get an upgrade to 4-B via being superior to the likes of Basil and Napapa. So if there's going to be a variable, I think "At least 4-B, possibly 3-A would be better. Considering that even the fodder Pride Troopers were considered "Harder to beat" than Napapa, High 4-C probably should be axed for them.
Although, I prefer to wait for AKM Sama, because we've always been so hesitant to give the 3-A upgrades for reasons mentioned countless times by Matt and AKM on other threads.
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Comparing an on-guard Android 18 to a suppressed Shin who was chilling in the stands and making jokes (his eyes weren't even open) isn't the best comparison. And unlike 17 and the others, she did not train a bit, and has no reason to become stronger out of the blue.
As for Tupper, we already decided not to scale characters from base Goku due to how notorious he is for holding back. Not to mention Tupper was glowing and sinking in the stage against Goku, not against 18. So he was using more weight against Goku. Zoiray is already deemed not equal to Kale and Caulifla.
Throughout the tournament, 18 is consistently portrayed as being much weaker than 17. So if she is doing some combo attack with 17, it either means 17 is holding back to her level or just PIS. Same goes for her in the pretty black hole with 17.
Vegeta also went ssj against a weak version of Rebrianne, when Goku was fine in base against a stronger rebrianne. This alone means the saiyans are a bad scale to measure with and Vegeta went ssj just for the lulz. And then 18 defeated a much stronger version on her own. That's why we have no idea how strong that form of Rebrianne was, and even then, it would be an outlier for 18 due to all the other reasons and lack of solid feats.
As for Tupper, we already decided not to scale characters from base Goku due to how notorious he is for holding back. Not to mention Tupper was glowing and sinking in the stage against Goku, not against 18. So he was using more weight against Goku. Zoiray is already deemed not equal to Kale and Caulifla.
Throughout the tournament, 18 is consistently portrayed as being much weaker than 17. So if she is doing some combo attack with 17, it either means 17 is holding back to her level or just PIS. Same goes for her in the pretty black hole with 17.
Vegeta also went ssj against a weak version of Rebrianne, when Goku was fine in base against a stronger rebrianne. This alone means the saiyans are a bad scale to measure with and Vegeta went ssj just for the lulz. And then 18 defeated a much stronger version on her own. That's why we have no idea how strong that form of Rebrianne was, and even then, it would be an outlier for 18 due to all the other reasons and lack of solid feats.
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I agree with AKM Sama. However, I do still think 4-B upgrades via consistent showings of characters being stronger than Napapa are reasonable and surprised not many people are talking about those details.
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I feel like we should wait to see if ByAsura has a response to AKM before deciding any conclusions.
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Basically, anybody who have casual Universe 6 saiyans trouble; emphases on casual. That would be people like Tupper, Cocotte, Android 18, Shosa, Kettal, and maybe some others I may be missing.
@Antvasima, yeah, I think it's just going to be 4-B at best, but we can wait for ByAsura.
@Antvasima, yeah, I think it's just going to be 4-B at best, but we can wait for ByAsura.
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