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Regarding inconsistent showings for DBS Saiyans.

I agree about her overpowering Krillin and other High 4-C characters, but it's clearly not as much as to put her at 3-A.

Idk why Majikayo is rated universal for restraining Goku. For an elastic type character, restraining someone is pretty normal and it doesn't translate to their striking strength. I remember Bollarator actually managing to put up with Gohan and Katopesla with SSJ Vegeta. But was Biarra really called the strongest of them all?
 
He also restrained Dyspo, though I'm not sure if it entirely scales to durability and Dyspo is somewhat inconsistent. Biarra wasn't the strongest, his durability was just higher than the rest.
 
Android 18 has really a weird scaling in ToP just like Rebrianne.

1. She has no reason, training or explanation for suddenly jumping to universe level.

2. Her fight against Shosa.

3. And her fight against Majora

both of whom scale to Krilling really dents the whole argument about her being universal.

Meanwhile,

1. Her fight against Biarra was a tag team battle where most of the credit should go to 17. It's also like those inconsistent tag team fights such as SSG Goku, SSJ Vegeta, etc fighting against Anilaza.

Then there is her thing with Rebrianne who is also inconsistent. I can agree with 4-B as a middle ground if she somehow scales to Basil and Napapa. But the evidence for 3-A is really not sufficient and can be easily questioned.
 
Everyone and their mothers scale above BoG SSG Goku in Super, why would 18 be any different? U6-arc Piccolo went from 4-C to 3-A without that much of a training, not taking in account his ToP feats obviously. It's not like 8/10 of 3-As in DBS aren't asspulls like when Gohan recovered his Mystic power and skyrocketed to 3-A.

18's High end feats far outweigh the lower ones. 18 is far above Krillin and these fights were made just for emotional purposes tbh.

I am with Asura here.

EDIT: As for the Maji Kayo part he has only two notable fights/feats which is restraining SSJ Goku and almost beating Dyspo so his 3-A rating is reasonable.
 
Also with Shosa and Majora, neither did any actual damage to 18 without catching her off-guard or hitting her when she didn't expect it. Plus there's the fact that Frost was wary of fighting her, choosing to run instead.

And if you really wanted to use her supposedly not training as a reason, then she wouldn't even have a DBS key.
 
AKM sama said:
Android 18 has really a weird scaling in ToP just like Rebrianne.

1. She has no reason, training or explanation for suddenly jumping to universe level.

2. Her fight against Shosa.

3. And her fight against Majora

both of whom scale to Krilling really dents the whole argument about her being universal.

Meanwhile,

1. Her fight against Biarra was a tag team battle where most of the credit should go to 17. It's also like those inconsistent tag team fights such as SSG Goku, SSJ Vegeta, etc fighting against Anilaza.

Then there is her thing with Rebrianne who is also inconsistent. I can agree with 4-B as a middle ground if she somehow scales to Basil and Napapa. But the evidence for 3-A is really not sufficient and can be easily questioned.
Click to expand...
She doesn't have no reason, they just never tell you how she got stronger. 17 became literal orders of magnitude stronger than her by simply doing extremely light training for 6 years with human-level opponents. Why can't 18 become stronger as well. Also, as I said before, she's already way stronger than she was in any phase of Dragon Ball.

Once again, 18 more consistently scales above Krillin, even while fighting Solar System/Large Star level characters. The first we see of her before she enters the Tournament is easily deflecting an attack too powerful for Krillin with a kick.

No, they were doing equal damage and fighting on par with the same guy. 18 wasn't even attacking Anilaza, and

It's far less questionable than scaling to Krillin.
 
That is the thing. Even if other characters have silly reasons for getting strong, like Piccolo and 17 always training, it is STILL a reason. 18 has none. She literally doesn't even like to fight and only does it because of the money, and has been living a domestic life for a long time.

I already agree about her being above Krillin, that is why she is all over the place, taking Krillin's help to eliminate a fodder from tag teaming with 17. I'd even say that Biarra was stated to have "one of the highest defences", not the highest defence. The guys fighting Ultimate Gohan should have the highest defences.

Again, a single shared feat of tag teaming with 17 isn't enough satisfactory evidence to upgrade her to 3-A when there are several other factors clearly contradicting it.
 
We've never heard that she doesn't train. That's just an assumption.

Not having the highest defences is innaccurate, though. You've essentially said that to avoid giving her this rating.

These several feats are, in of themselves, contradictory. Also, I'm not saying she should straight up be 3-A, just possibly 3-A.
 
A much more likely assumption based on her character and lifestyle. Also, the burden of proof is always on the positive side. We need evidence explaining that magical growth, not the other way around.

Not really. Toei's website did outright said "highest", but the anime only said "one of the highest". "Highest" would really mean that Android 18 is on par with Ultimate Gohan who also failed to harm other robots, which would be another contradiction.

I prefer to dwell on the safer side. Just like we have dismissed so many other inconsistent feats as outliers, Android 18 should be treated the same way. Not just me, several others have disagreed with rating 18 as anything 3-A, so you'll need a much bigger approval from several staff members.
 
There is evidence that she's way stronger than before; like I've said many times before, she's already leagues about her Android/Cell Saga self no matter what anyone says. She already has this magical growth, which basically everyone in the series has.

The anime didn't, it says he boasts the highest defences. The entire point of his character and this fight was that he's especially durable amongst the warriors of his universe as well, so he shouldn't be much less durable than the 4 robots who fought Gohan and co.
 
4-B via scaling is much safer for Android 18. But 3-A is a massive jump and would require some extraordinary irrefutable evidence which doesn't exist. Therefore, I'm against it.

And a little nitpick, the scan says "boasts one of the highest defences", not the highest outright.
 
You can say the same about basically anyone except Goku, Vegeta and Frieza in DBS. Putting these kinds of limits is just arbitrary. Also, I'm just suggesting 4-B, possibly 3-A.

You're right, it does say one of (I didn't notice this) but that doesn't change much, especially since he'd still be more durable than some of the guys who fought Gohan and fused into Koichiarator.
 
The difference is that 17 has been training and is outright described and shown to be one of the strongest, especially the time he had an advatage against Base Toppo. And Piccolo was the one who trained Gohan to his limits to the point where even SSB Goku considered him strong and even used SSB Kaioken against him.
 
I maybe should've excluded TOP Gohan and probably Piccolo from that list, but 17 and co. are just as bad. Originally, a god ritual level was needed to get to this level, or training like Vegeta had, but they all just surpass it with normal training.
 
17's growth was mysterious, but that doesn't change the fact that his feats have consistently been shown to be SSB level. Both before and during the Tournament of Power.
 
We're probably going to make no progress on the 18 thing right now. I think we should discuss the other ratings and come back to it later.
 
They'd only get the 4-B since Vegeta definitely wasn't going all out against them. Only 18 and those that scale to her would get the '4-B, possibly 3-A' if I'm understanding correctly.
 
Btw, why is Jimeze 4-B for fighting a held back Gohan for a few moments? He should not be stronger than Rebrianne who is among the top dogs of U2.
 
I agree. I completely forgot about the selection I was going to go over.
 
I won't include Universe 3, 7, 9 or 11 since we've been over the former two, 9 has been discussed and the latter just seems like a completely different can of worms that I'll talk about later with in put. I'll also try to keep the list limited to people who could be important for scaling.

Universe 2

Universe 4

Universe 10

Misc.

  • Catopesra: High 4-C to 4-B; Without transforming, he could match Hop, but I doubt she was at full power. His whirlwind mode also blitzed 18, but I doubt she was using her true power either. He should be way weaker than even Cabba, as the strongest modwarrior in Universe 3 was effortlessly taken out by him. Even a weaker member of his universe could withstand Master Roshi's thundershock, which is effective against stronger opponents, and Tien's Tribeam.
Conclusion
I'd say Ribrianne, the other magical girls, and the pseudo magical girls are 4-B, while Jimeze and such are High 4-C and possibly 4-B with some mental gymnastics.

What does this mean for everyone else? Most of them stay the same.
 
Btw I think these 4-Bs should not be stronger than Super Buu. They all scale somewhere along Fat Buu level.

I'm just confirming this because many of them have portal creation via vice shout listed in their profiles.
 
Actually, Fat Buu is stronger in Super than he was in Buu Saga, just to an unknown extent. It's possible he's stronger than Kid Buu at least. And Basil should be roughly Majin Vegeta tier at least.
 
We can't really confirm that, though. I think Goku said he can become ridiculously strong by getting angry, but this is also Good Buu, who lost most of his power after Innocent Buu split.
 
Good Buu only trained after the exhibition, from what I remember. However, he put up a better fight against Buu than Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta, so Basil is unquestionably Solar System level.
 
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