Regarding inconsistent showings for DBS Saiyans.

[ByAsura]

Comparing an on-guard Android 18 to a suppressed Shin who was chilling in the stands and making jokes (his eyes weren't even open) isn't the best comparison. And unlike 17 and the others, she did not train a bit, and has no reason to become stronger out of the blue.

Shin had no reason to hold back and there's sore losers in the tournament who attack others after losing, plus he was still petrified of Android 18. You could say he wasn't in combat, but he wasn't in combat when Piccolo called his strength far greater.

It's never stated she didn't train, we even see her sparring with Krillin as Medeus mentioned. Also, 18 would still be Large Star level, so she is way stronger than her current ratings suggest even if you don't want to upgrade her.

As for Tupper, we already decided not to scale characters from base Goku due to how notorious he is for holding back. Not to mention Tupper was glowing and sinking in the stage against Goku, not against 18. So he was using more weight against Goku. Zoiray is already deemed not equal to Kale and Caulifla.

The point was to show how far she was above your average Large Star level or Krillin level character, it wasn't proof that she was Universe level.

Throughout the tournament, 18 is consistently portrayed as being much weaker than 17. So if she is doing some combo attack with 17, it either means 17 is holding back to her level or just PIS. Same goes for her in the pretty black hole with 17.

The argument wasn't that she's equal to Android 17, it's that she could damage Biarra, whose defences were the strongest in Universe 3. The part about her blasts being equal to 17 is to show that he wasn't doing all the damage. I mentioned he was suppressed here, and Goku was right next to her.

Vegeta also went ssj against a weak version of Rebrianne, when Goku was fine in base against a stronger rebrianne. This alone means the saiyans are a bad scale to measure with and Vegeta went ssj just for the lulz. And then 18 defeated a much stronger version on her own. That's why we have no idea how strong that form of Rebrianne was, and even then, it would be an outlier for 18 due to all the other reasons and lack of solid feats.

My point is that she consistently outclasses Ribrianne, not that the latter is Universe level.

 

[PridedWaif]

Replying to the OP:

Trunks struggling with Dabura 2 years prior is irrelevant to being comparable to Base Goku and Vegeta when you're literally being used as a punching bag/bait to increase a much stronger opposition. Trunks is a saiyan his Zenkai increases can be small to exponentially vast. Black was beating trunks to increase and manifest his own abilities. For example: 2 arcs before we saw tagoma a 2nd rate Frieza force soldier be used as a sparring partner who got beaten literally to near death while Frieza didn't receive any threat from him. The results, Frieza was able to tap and manifest some of his untapped potential, while Tagoma went from Z namek saga lvls of power to Buu saga levels of power. Just from getting beaten to a pulp and healing from those effects, which hardened and honed his battle sense. Trunks being a hybrid saiyan at that, being used as to increase and manifest a god tier being, who is above a suppressed Beerus, abilities. You get drastic increases.

Goku Black fighting SSJ2 Goku on equal levels and then harming blue Vegeta, is quite simple. Black was holding back against SSj2 Goku (which was stated and obvious), adapted, embedded that fighting style and zenkai'd from the experience while honing it, waiting for them. Blue Vegeta wasn't going all out from the start and underestimated black from the previous encounter that Goku had with black. That's pretty much shown and explained well.

I don't get what you're trying to insinuate with Zamasu > Suppressed Beerus. It's in the statement. That's just a heavily suppressed Beerus. Goku at his lowest in initial God form was > than Beerus suppressed state against the Z fighters. Nothing inconsistent.

Gohan shouldn't be 3-A until ToP arc. That's very much clear. That's not the show, it's whoever put him at 3-A prior to that arc mess up. After Gohan train and gain that battle power back, he then trained more and further evolved to god tier levels right before the tourney. We are shown this, Piccolo isn't even stronger than a Base Goku & Gohan.

-Pride troopers got high friendship teamwork coordination, the sum of them fighting together are greater than individually(Plot for anyone in any fictional series if occurred). That's why they were giving them a rough time and goku wasn't fighting seriously. He was holding back intently to have some thrill from fighting them. He could've easily blitzed and taken them out (just like manga).

-18 could be 3-A, though I can see why people are skeptical on it. Took out the pride troopers, saved 17, took out Goddess mode Ribrianne who is > Super Rib > Base Rib. She at least should rival a SSJ Goku/Vegeta by being relative to a heavily suppressed 17 who was on par with a ssj Goku. Nothing really concrete for 3-A besides her possibly being > than Baseku and taking out Goddess Rib. At the very least for lowball in the 3-B tier.

-Frieza in Base could be above SSJ 1-G or weaker. It doesn't really matter since his Golden form is where his power is flexible and extensive since we know Golden is a bigger multiplier than blue anyhow. Though, he is from what's shown should be >=SSJ.

Some of this is self explanatory and shown. Though I get what you mean since they rushed to get everyone power boosts. They just half assed it lol.

 

[LordTracer]

Bump

 

[AKM sama]

Just a nitpick, Shin was ready for battle against Piccolo while he was just sitting and joking in this case. He has a different mindset in both cases.

And what exactly do you wish to change about 18 if your point was not to prove she is universal?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think he meant that he wasn't fully trying to get 18 to 3-A, but just saying "18 never trained at all" or "She's never shown to be that much stronger than Krillin" was what he considered wrong. However, 18 being 4-B via being superior to various weaker pride troopers like Tupper, Kettol, Zoiray, Casserale, and Cocotte who in turn were considered superior to Napapa based on how casual Caulifla fought them; as well as maybe people like Shosa seems reasonable to me.

 

[LordTracer]

Pretty sure he was referring to Ribrianne here, not 18.

"My point is that she consistently outclasses Ribrianne, not that the latter is Universe level."

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

And Ribrianne is typically fodder compared to Vegeta, with Goku and 17 severly holding back. But 18 does appear to be above Ribrianne who also appears she should be 4-B via the scaling as well.

 

[LordTracer]

Sure, I guess? He was saying Ribrianne wasn't 3-A anyways.

 

[ByAsura]

Just a nitpick, Shin was ready for battle against Piccolo while he was just sitting and joking in this case. He has a different mindset in both cases.
And what exactly do you wish to change about 18 if your point was not to prove she is universal?

Kind of, it seems he was more interested in conversing with him and stopping Buu.

I'm just saying she could be Large Star/Solar System level possibly Universe level. That's all. Cocotte has similar feats.

 

[Antvasima]

So what should we do here?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

There still seems to be some ongoing debates; however, most of the staff/Admins have rejected 18 being upgrade to 3-A as with several other underdogs. But as I said multiple times, I think several of the listed characters above should get an upgrade to 4-B scaling from Napapa and Basil.

ByAsure proposes possibly 3-A, but it doesn't appear AKM or Matt accept that either.

 

[LordTracer]

I still think Asura's compromise of 'High 4-C, possibly 3-A' or '4-B, possibly 3-A' is the best course of action.

 

[Antvasima]

@Medeus

Okay. Thanks. Should we apply that solution then?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'd prefer to wait for AKM Sama to come back, but if you need to unsubscribe for time constraints, we got it handled from here.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks. I will do so then.

 

[AKM sama]

About Basil, didn't Buu kinda stomp him once he got serious, before Basil ate that fruit/drug?

 

[ByAsura]

He did stomp him, but this same Buu would've incinerated Perfect Cell and punched Cell Saga Gohan's head clean off his body.

@Medeus When Caulifa easily defeated Napapa she was a Super Saiyan.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Basil was originally kicking Buu around, much like Majin Vegeta, plus Buu is already far above baseline 4-B. Majin Vegeta was also stomped by Fat Buu, and I believe Good Buu should be considered stronger than he was in Buu saga; though not saying he's any higher than 4-B, but still.

And Caulifa still effortlessly stomped Napapa.

 

[ByAsura]

Yeah, but as a Super Saiya and she did have some trouble. It wasn't effortless.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Seems more to be that he was heavy, but she still stomped him AP wise.

 

[ByAsura]

She would've been holding back a lot less against the Pride Troopers, I suppose.

 

[AKM sama]

I have no problems with 4-B ratings for those who scale to Basil and Napapa then.

 

[LordTracer]

@AKM Do you still have a problem with Asura's compromise for 18's rating?

 

[AKM sama]

Yes, I don't think 18 should have a universal rating, even possibly.

 

[LordTracer]

May I ask why?

 

[AKM sama]

I already gave my reasons several times. 18 being universal just doesn't make sense and has no explanation behind it. She has a lot of feats that suggest otherwise and her "universal" scaling can be explained by some stronger person holding back or just one of the many inconsistent moments present there for the cool-factor.

 

[LordTracer]

Didn't Asura go over all of her ToP feats and show there were equal amounts of High 4-C ones and 3-A ones? And there's several things in this show that "don't make sense," that isn't really good reasoning.

 

[AKM sama]

I already addressed that above.

 

[LordTracer]

And then Asura replied to you addressing his initial post. You didn't really reply to his reply.

 

[AKM sama]

And in his reply, he said that the points in his post were not really for universal 18. What am I supposed to reply to?

 

[LordTracer]

Yeah, not for her being fully 3-A, but 'High 4-C, possibly 3-A.'

I'm just saying she could be Large Star/Solar System level possibly Universe level. That's all. Cocotte has similar feats.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

AKM basically explained that most of the 3-A encounters appear to be the 3-A characters holding back severely, and "Possibly 3-A" in addition to an At least Tier 4, is really something we haven't given for Dragon Ball characters before.

Although, AKM said he's fine with her and several others scaling to 4-B.

 

[LordTracer]

I mean, I don't see any reasonwhy we shouldn't do that for Dragon Ball characters.

 

[ByAsura]

Giving a few characters a possibly Universe level rating would help more than it would hurt. It'd likely only scale to 18 and maybe the mid-tier (weaker than Dyspo and Kunshi, but stronger than Vewon and Tupper) Pride Troopers.

Also, 18 still has that Biarra feat.

 

[LordTracer]

Also like PridedWaif said earlier, 18 scaling to a suppressed 17 could still be used for a 'possibly 3-A' as a suppressed 17 was on par with SSJ Goku.

 

[AKM sama]

My point is that she is either universal or she is not. We either accept those feats as legitimate or we don't. That's why Rebrianne's rating was changed from At least High 4-C, possibly 3-A.

Biarra isn't 3-A either.

 

[ByAsura]

Why though? Ribrianne has a genuine reason not to be 3-A.

The Universe 3 Robots are listed as 3-A, Biarra has the strongest defences. His profile is just based off being equal to 18.

 

[AKM sama]

I also think some of the U3 guys need to be downgraded. There was a big revision thread where it was decided not to scale random small fries to the heroes' full power for the smallest reasons and I think those profiles were made after that revision thread.

Even if we consider her harming Biarra and Biarra being 3-A, that's still inconsistent like most of the tag team battles in the ToP. She has more reasons and convincing ones at that to not be 3-A. While her reasons for being 3-A are pretty shaky.

 

[ByAsura]

I'll talk about the robots soon. They do have some reason to scale to the full power of at least Gohan.

The tag team battles are more shaky than the 3-A feats, as the Krillin one is completely plot-based and Ribrianne is super inconsistent. She more consistently overpowers Pride Troopers and Krillin level characters as well.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm still with AKM Sama here.