Regarding Cell being a Solar System buster...

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yes, but Kid Buu is not like a character such as say...Broly. He doesn't need to sleep, he doesn't need to eat, he doesn't need to stop moving. He eats, sleeps, and breathes destruction. Every second of his life was spent blowing things up. You could easily demolish (though not COMPLETELY destroy) a galaxy like that while still only being, as I said, High 4-B/Low 4-A.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

actually, the kais intervened relatively quickly, so that doesnt give kid buu much time in order to actually destroy a galaxy, using that reasoning, he shud be a proper 4-A

 

[Antvasima]

As far as I understand, he completely destroyed one within a limited timeframe, much like the animation clip from the original anime show. Even a relatively small galaxy such as ours contains 200 to 400 billion stars. Destroying all of them would not remotely be achievable with anything less than 4-A.

 

[Antvasima]

That said, it might be good if somebody could find the updated clip of this?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

He didn't fully destroy the galaxy, though. The flashback shows Kid Buu going from planet to planet and blowing them up, then we see a visual representation of the galaxy disappearing. This does not mean he literally destroyed everything in the entire galaxy, as the manga mentions how he annihilated celestial bodies. This is the same as the Broly thing where he supposedly made the galaxy "vanish", then they later fight in said galaxy.

Destroying something doesn't mean you have to scour every last piece of it out of existence, and blowing up most of a galaxy's planets and stars would still count as destroying it, even if some parts of it still existed.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, just because he alternated between destroying smaller parts of it, and larger sectors at once, does not invalidate that the disappearance video is intended as a representation of the results, and that destroying a galaxy completely would at least require being able to destroy millions of solar systems at a time.

The Broly situation is a separate matter, and we cannot generalise between them, but the stars still being visible can easily be explained by the light taking thousands to millions of years to travel.

 

[Antvasima]

@TLT1 Good point.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Again, my problem with this is that we're just going to accept Kid Buu being millions of times stronger than Cell because a visual representation from Kai that was originally a filler scene from the anime that was meant to show Buu tearing a galaxy apart. I would feel more comfortable with this had the original dialogue been something like "Buu scoured the galaxy clean" or "He wiped the galaxy out" even, as opposed to talking about his systematic destruction of the stars and planets.

I'm simply using it as an example, because they're pretty similar. I'm also not talking about the stars, but the planets you clearly see (such as the one they fought on) that make me doubt he destroyed the ENTIRE galaxy as opposed to just laying waste to it.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

furthermore, it looked like bu wasnt constanly destroying the galaxy, but rather in blasts (we see that visible tiny chunks of the galaxy dissappear at once), this is a further display of kid buu being above high ss lvl and above low multi ss level

the scene geniunly showed that he is multi ss level that is normal 4-A

about the other buus: i think that the strongest buu- buuhan wud then be high 4-A, with super vegito being 4-A or low 3-C at the very best

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Again, my problem with this is that we're just going to accept Kid Buu being millions of times stronger than Cell because a visual representation from Kai that was originally a filler scene from the anime that was meant to show Buu tearing a galaxy apart. I would feel more comfortable with this had the original dialogue been something like "Buu scoured the galaxy clean" or "He wiped the galaxy out" even, as opposed to talking about his systematic destruction of the stars and planets.
I'm simply using it as an example, because they're pretty similar. I'm also not talking about the stars, but the planets you clearly see (such as the one they fought on) that make me doubt he destroyed the ENTIRE galaxy as opposed to just laying waste to it.

the millions of times thing isnt really a problem

after all, its the same franchise that went from island+ to moon level in one saga

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I agree that it doesn't make sense, but this is Dragon Ball that we are talking about. Have you seen the map of its universe? It does not follow conventional rational logic. It is pure fantasy.

It doesn't make sense with an even higher power scale jump from 4-A in DBZ Kai to 3-A in DB Super either (for example, SS2 Vegeta was supposedly equal to 10% Beerus), but we have to go along with it due to that the feats are explicit.

Akira Toriyama mostly cares about that there is an entertaining story, not that the power differences are rational. Marvel is even worse in this regard.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

the millions of times thing isnt really a problem

after all, its the same franchise that went from island+ to moon level in one saga

Not a problem for Buu as a standalone character maybe, but certainly for scaling.

Does this mean SSJ3 is millions of times stronger than SSJ2?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Ant

I'm relatively fine with the 3-B SSJ2 Vegeta simply because while extremely stupid, at least it was explicit.

This is a cinematic in a flashback.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

the millions of times thing isnt really a problem

after all, its the same franchise that went from island+ to moon level in one saga

Not a problem for Buu as a standalone character maybe, but certainly for scaling.
Does this mean SSJ3 is millions of times stronger than SSJ2?

welp, no

it simply means that buu saga character's base bp is faaar higher than cell saga characters base bp

keep in mind, the only near cell saga character to fight even a buu saga mid tier was gohan who fought fat buu

and he can CURB STOMPED with no effort

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

also, regarding 10 percent vegeta: didnt beerus say near the end of the fight that he had used 10 percent power after a logn time, so that cus mean he used 10 percent power to easily defeat/ end the fight with enraged vegeta (iirc he flicked him away with that power), so vegeta wud be nowehere near 3-B at that point

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Look at Buu saga SSJ2 Gohan in his fight with Dabura.

Then look at his later fight with Super Buu as Ultimate Gohan.

Can you honestly say the Mystic boost multiplied his power by more than 100 million?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, flashbacks count as well. There will be no end to the constant outrage and disbelief that we will have to handle for years to come if we do not handle this in a fair and unbiased manner. We have an explocit feat of galaxy-destruction, and are required to count it. In addition, it seems more reasonable/smoothens the enormous tier jump somewhat if the strongest DBZ character is possibly Low 3-C.

 

[Addarash]

I'm ok with this. Cell should be far above Solar System level or atleast Solar System+ level Power scaling wise. Frieza resisted a large spirit bomb that had energy from other parts of the universe including Namek's sun at 50%. Then we have Trunks finishing him in a few moves. By comparing their power levels Cell should be well within the Solar System level.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Look at Buu saga SSJ2 Gohan in his fight with Dabura.
Then look at his later fight with Super Buu as Ultimate Gohan.

Can you honestly say the Mystic boost multiplied his power by more than 100 million?

1- both dabura and ssj2 gohan are nothing compared to fat buu, who is himself weaker than 3 other buus by a large margin

2- ultimate gohan got an UBER powerup, thats why he was able to fight a 4-A superbuu/ above mid-4-A superbuu

3- yes, cuz the author never mentioned any numbers, and is known to make characters VERY strong in a single gap, iirc goku didnt even train much after db, and in beggining of dbz, he was at level or just below moon busters

 

[Antvasima]

Again, it doesn't make sense that Beerus and Whis would be untold trillions of times stronger than Buu either, but we still have to go along with it. We have to realise that this is fiction, and that it is recurrently not the least bit rational concerning comparative power levels. Just because battleboards care about this does not mean that most authors do.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Well, flashbacks count as well. There will be no end to the constant outrage and disbelief that we will have to handle for years to come if we do not handle this in a fair and unbiased manner. We have an explocit feat of galaxy-destruction, and are required to count it. In addition, it seems more reasonable/smoothens the enormous tier jump somewhat if the strongest DBZ character is possibly Low 3-C.

It does smoothen the jump, but it raises issues within DBZ itself and essentially throws powerscaling out the window because of a questionable cinematic feat. Wasn't one of the big things we always talked about on DBZ pages how characters within the same tier can be vastly superior to others within the same tier? I feel we're just ignoring that, now.

Keep in mind, I'm in no way trying to downplay Buu, nor do I hate him (he's still my favorite DBU antagonist), but I want to make sure we're not blowing his power out of proportion due to what was originally simple filler.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Well, flashbacks count as well. There will be no end to the constant outrage and disbelief that we will have to handle for years to come if we do not handle this in a fair and unbiased manner. We have an explocit feat of galaxy-destruction, and are required to count it. In addition, it seems more reasonable/smoothens the enormous tier jump somewhat if the strongest DBZ character is possibly Low 3-C.

It does smoothen the jump, but it raises issues within DBZ itself and essentially throws powerscaling out the window because of a questionable cinematic feat. Wasn't one of the big things we always talked about on DBZ pages how characters within the same tier can be vastly superior to others within the same tier? I feel we're just ignoring that, now.
Keep in mind, I'm in no way trying to downplay Buu, nor do I hate him (he's still my favorite DBU antagonist), but I want to make sure we're not blowing his power out of proportion due to what was originally simple filler.

the point is: there was a huge power gap between buu saga (as in the buus, the ssj3 goku, and so on) and cell saga

so far no one knew how much, and people pretty much low balled it to the bare minimum, but with the feat, we can see that it was massive (as expected, since dbz inter saag power gaps have been known to be massive or at least huge)

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Again, it doesn't make sense that Beerus and Whis would be untold trillions of times stronger than Buu either, but we still have to go along with it.

I disagree with this, because unlike Buu, Beerus and Whis were presented as gods untouchable by the main cast, not just another group of antagonists.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I understand your concern and agree that the sudden tier jump from solar system to multi-solar system level is not rational, but that is the author's fault not ours, and this type of complete power level mismatch occurence is extremely common within fiction according to my experience.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Again, it doesn't make sense that Beerus and Whis would be untold trillions of times stronger than Buu either, but we still have to go along with it.

I disagree with this, because unlike Buu, Beerus and Whis were presented as gods untouchable by the main cast, not just another group of antagonists.

buu wasnt just another antagonist either, he was literally the first legit threat to the universe (considering that the highest ranked beings tried to stop him, and didnt really care about cell or any previos villain)

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Well, I understand your concern and agree that this is not rational, but that is the author's fault not ours, and this type of complete power level mismatch occurence is extremely common within fiction according to my experience.

Oh I know. Believe me, I'd actually be very glad for Buu to be well within 4-A, but I'm just worried that since the feat is, in my opinion, questionable, we'll be viewed as complete wankers for it.

 

[Antvasima]

The point is that Beerus did not yawn Buu out of existence. He had to physically strike him repeatedly. Nothing we saw from their confrontation indicated that kind of enormous power difference.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Well, I understand your concern and agree that this is not rational, but that is the author's fault not ours, and this type of complete power level mismatch occurence is extremely common within fiction according to my experience.

Oh I know. Believe me, I'd actually be very glad for Buu to be well within 4-A, but I'm just worried that since the feat is, in my opinion, questionable, we'll be viewed as complete wankers for it.

wankers? i have seen that feat be brought up time and again in the past, and accepted (even back in mvc last year roughly half of the people accepted kid buu to be multi solar system buster and had already accepted spc as ss buster), the only people calling us wankers wud be the ones who put frieza at planet level+ and spc at large planet+ and kid buu at small star level

 

[Antvasima]

I agree. It is hard to argue with a feat. To avoid future problems, you can write an explanation into the new footnote if you wish?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Ant

True, but it's not like he had to put effort into it. He was simply trying to enjoy himself, being the violence craving ****** that he is.

@TLT1

I really hope you're right.

 

[AllanSaiyan]

Well, I understand your concern and agree that this is not rational, but that is the author's fault not ours, and this type of complete power level mismatch occurence is extremely common within fiction according to my experience.

Oh I know. Believe me, I'd actually be very glad for Buu to be well within 4-A, but I'm just worried that since the feat is, in my opinion, questionable, we'll be viewed as complete wankers for it.

wankers? i have seen that feat be brought up time and again in the past, and accepted (even back in mvc last year roughly half of the people accepted kid buu to be multi solar system buster and had already accepted spc as ss buster), the only people calling us wankers wud be the ones who put frieza at planet level+ and spc at large planet+ and kid buu at small star level

^That rating didn't even make sense tbh

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I agree. It is hard to argue with a feat. To avoid future problems, you can write an explanation into the new footnote if you wish?

I could do that.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we might be in a bit of a tough situation I will admit, but the easier path still seems to be to accept the explicit galaxy-busting feat, make a footnote about that the profiles are based on DBZ Kai, and that we are aware of that the tier jump doesn't particularly make sense, but that this is the author's fault and not ours.

 

[Valar_Melkor_2]

The Z-Fighters could sense Ki and tell if he was bluffing and they all took him seriously, so I'd say yeah, Cell should be Solar System level. Also Buu should be at least Multi-Solar System level for his Galaxy busting feat.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

The Z-Fighters could sense Ki and tell if he was bluffing and they all took him seriously, so I'd say yeah, Cell should be Solar System level. Also Buu should be at least Multi-Solar System level for his Galaxy busting feat.

I also agree with what Valar said here. Like Cell had like a hugh a** boost after his suicide bomb move he pulled. And like Valar said here, The Z-Fighters could sense Ki and they could tell if he was bluffing or not going by how much energy was charging up for his Kamehameha.

As for the other points on what Buu being 4-A and Vegito being higher up somewhere there, that too i could for.

 

[FanofRPGs]

So are all of the admins in agreement?

 

[Viturino]

This is not hyperbole for a simple fact:

Akira toriyama writes everythink as simple as possible, he has never made a character bluff like that before, Cell had no reasons to bluff, also, IF someone bluffes Akira always leave that CLEAR so everyone can understand whats happening.

Akira always said :"I want the series to be easy for everyone to understand" we all know he does not do all this hyperuniverse layered dimensions thing, why would he do it complex with Cell? We also know its not a dub line, its in the american, in the japanese in the spanish in the portuguese, in the anime, in the manga, in the guidebooks, i think the ones who think he is NOT solar system should be tryin to back it up, not the opposite.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

wow. this actually came full circle. very awesome guys. So a DB renaissance is really happening(that's what my friends call it.)

 

[The_Everlasting]

Okay, it seems that we've come to agreement. I'll make the edits, but I want to make sure exactly what profiles to change and what to change them too. And which ones should have the notes about DBZ Kai and what the notes would say.

 

[FanofRPGs]

Okay, it seems that we've come to agreement. I'll make the edits, but I want to make sure exactly what profiles to change and what to change them too. And which ones should have the notes about DBZ Kai and what the notes would say.

Here is the list

-Goku

-Vegeta

-Gohan

-Future Trunks

-Future Gohan

-Goten

-Trunks

-Gohan

-Gotenks

-Veggeto

-Freeza

-Cooler

-Super #13

-Brolli

-Bojack

-Hatchiyack

-Android 19

-Android 20

-Android 17

-Android 18

-Android 16

-Cell

-Boo

-Dabura

Use the post I had for their stats above (Except sum it up and do not do every form, just one or two per saga)