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Regarding Bleach characters actual scalling and planet level top tiers

Hasch

Hasch

366
91
Simple, this is wrong.

Chapter 4: Can’t Fear Your Own World​



​

4.1 Hikone​

Hikone is an artificial soul crafted as an amalgamation of all the important races within Bleach. They were created by Tokinada in order to replace the position of Soul King with someone Tokinada could easily manipulate. Throughout the events of Can’t Fear Your Own World (CFYOW), Hikone grows immensely in strength from someone who could barely fend off the three remaining Espada and surviving Sternritter (Grimmjow, Neliel, Halibel, Liltotto, Giselle, and Zombie Bambietta) to someone so powerful they were a match for the strongest of the verse. This section will detail a large variety of scaling Hikone has that puts them as one of the strongest characters in the entire series.

The first argument is that a weaker base Hikone scales to Ikomikidomoe. Ikomikidomoe is the same Hollow that in the past was able to defeat Yamamoto (prior to Yamamoto getting his Zanpakuto). This is quite impressive considering that base Yamamoto is capable of taking the full force of his amplified Shikai flames without falling unconscious, and as mentioned in prior sections, Yamamoto scales above the likes of SAFWY Kenpachi Zaraki. There is a caveat to mention, Ikomikidomoe had his name sealed by Ichibe and is implied to have been weakened by that. However, later Hikone would fuse their and Ikomikidomoe’s power and reach heights greater than the sum of their individual powers prior, and Hikone is even stronger in base by the end of the story than when they claim to be relative to Ikomikidomoe. All this means that they should be in that same realm of power regardless.

The second argument is much more obvious and blatant than the first. The second Hikone activates their Resurreccion, everyone participating at the climactic battle (which include people who have bore witness to the Soul King in one form or another) instinctively knew Hikone possessed all the qualities to become the Soul King. This is a very peculiar statement, being that the same statement was given to Ichigo Kurosaki. As is common knowledge at this point, all the Soul King is is a lynchpin who prevents the collapse of the realms through raw spiritual energy, and both Ichigo and Hikone are brute force fighters. All they have is a large amount of power at their disposal and a reiatsu mix of all the races, and as Tokinada states, someone with the power of the races and the qualities of the Soul King can destroy the world as they please. Hikone’s full power reaching Reio levels of output is not far fetched considering what the narrator and certain characters claim about their power level.

When the narrator is listing off characters who can defeat and/or fight Hikone at their peak power, they make mention that Muken Aizen could only defeat Hikone if he were serious. To put that into a scaling chain would net the following: casual Muken Aizen < Full Power Hikone < serious Muken Aizen ~ Soul King Yhwach ~ True Bankai Ichigo > True Shikai Hollow Ichigo’s strongest attack > True Shikai Hollow Ichigo > True Shikai Ichigo > Final Getsuga Tenshou Ichigo > post-Dangai training Ichigo > God Aizen > fourth Hogyoku fusion Aizen = Reio’s husk ~ planetary. The difference between True Shikai Ichigo and True Bankai Ichigo in terms of attack potency is a hundred times, and as proposed in section 2.1, the difference between Final Getsuga Tenshou Ichigo and God Aizen is a thousand times. This would put the Reio’s corpse’s spiritual power a hundred thousand times beneath a serious Muken Aizen, meanwhile Hikone’s full power is so great it would require Aizen to be serious to win. Muken Aizen needing to get serious to defeat Hikone at their peak would indicate that Hikone is somewhat relative to Muken Aizen, and it is important to understand that you can be relative to someone and still lose to them.

Furthermore, Liltotto makes a statement that adds further consistency to Hikone being above the likes of casual god tiers in the verse. When Hikone is charging up a cero, Liltotto claimed it was an extraordinary amount of reiatsu unlike any she felt before. Liltotto having fought and lost to a casual Soul King Yhwach, should have a decent awareness of Yhwach’s casual power output. This is actually significant, as Yhwach as the new Soul King is passively keeping the planets from entirely annihilating themselves. So again, this can produce two scaling chains, both placing Hikone above Reio’s husk: planetary ~ Reio’s husk ~< casual Soul King Yhwach < base Hikone’s amped Cero < Soul King Yhwach ~ True Bankai Ichigo > True Shikai Hollow Ichigo’s strongest attack > True Shikai Hollow Ichigo > True Shikai Ichigo > Final Getsuga Tenshou Ichigo > post-Dangai training Ichigo > God Aizen > fourth Hogyoku fusion Aizen = Reio’s husk ~ planetary. As said in the previous paragraph, the difference between the god tiers and Reio’s enshrined body is a hundred thousand times. Meanwhile, Hikone is able to surpass said god tiers at their casual power.

At this point, it should be abundantly obvious that Hikone is a “Soul King” level fighter. Not only are they outright stated to possess the qualities of the Soul King, but they also are so powerful that the god tiers would have to take them seriously in a fight to be capable of winning. This shouldn’t come as a surprise, as later in section 4.5 you’ll learn how the entire point of Hikone’s character was to get this strong.

4.2 Kenpachi Zaraki​

Kenpachi doesn’t have much new scaling outside of fighting and matching Resurreccion Hikone in his base without his eyepatch. Which is quite impressive in and of itself after what was brought to light above. Additionally, Zaraki finally becomes a Kenpachi fitting of his title, as he is finally the strongest Shinigami as confirmed by the author. However, the most interesting feat comes from when Zaraki fights Ikomikidomoe.

After Hikone’s defeat, Ikomikidomoe can finally burst forth and he consumes fragments of the Reio to break Ichibe’s seal by gaining a vast amount of power. However, this is all for naught as Kenpachi releases Nozarashi and obliterates Ikomikidomoe. This is sneakily impressive thanks to a fight that occurs between Ichibe and Yhwach in the manga. Yhwach steals Yamamoto’s Bankai within his medallion before killing Yamamoto in the first invasion. Then during the second invasion, Ichibe is able to seal Yamamoto’s Bankai and prevent Yhwach from making use of it. Because Ikomikidomoe was able to break free from Ichibe’s seal with raw power, but Yamamoto’s Bankai could be sealed by Ichibe just fine, that would prove that Ikomikidomoe in that instant surpassed Yamamoto’s Bankai. Then Kenpachi one shot that Ikomikidomoe. Zaraki surpassing an opponent who surpassed Zanka no Tachi is quite the impressive feat.

4.3 Ginjo​

Ginjo is a very interesting and underrated character within the events of CFYOW. Particularly a statement that has drawn quite the controversy is of interest here, and we shall explain why it’s actually rather consistent. Ginjo’s Getsuga Tenshou rivaled Ichigo’s strongest Getsuga as stated by the narrator. Now let’s break this down.

First thing to draw attention to is Ginjo’s state in this scene. Ginjo when he fires this attack is in his Bankai and it is outright stated that this attack was amplified by the intense emotions he was feeling at the time. Ginjo’s Bankai is a tad bit different from your average Bankai, if you pay close attention to its appearance you’ll notice it is very Hollow-like. This isn’t surprising because Ginjo stole Ichigo’s powers (containing reiatsu from all races), as indicated by the characteristic black eyes and tattoo markings even Ichigo would later adorn in the final arc with his Hollow powers. Ginjo can even fire a Cero (or Cero-like) attack in Bankai. The point here being that Ginjo is receiving Bankai and Hollow amps in this state. Furthermore, we know your emotions and state of mind can enhance your power as stated by Yoruichi, and with how Ichigo’s emotions vastly affect his power level. Ginjo was even stated to be able to possibly combat Hikone had he not been preoccupied. So, we have an emotion amped, Bankai-Hollow form that’s fused with the reiatsu of all races, Soul King candidate who can put up a fight against Resurreccion Hikone, Ginjo’s strongest Getsuga rivaling Ichigo’s strongest Getsuga (as seen in the story this would refer to this attack). Emotion amped Bankai Ginjo being able to reach a fatigued True Bankai Ichigo’s power is not only outright stated, but also backed up by other statements within CFYOW.

4.4 Scaling​

There are a few scaling chains introduced within CFYOW, some of which you’ve been introduced to above. We’ll run down a simplified list of the chains. Hikone’s first scaling chain: casual Muken Aizen < Full Power Hikone < serious Muken Aizen ~ Soul King Yhwach ~ True Bankai Ichigo > True Shikai Hollow Ichigo’s strongest attack > True Shikai Hollow Ichigo > True Shikai Ichigo > Final Getsuga Tenshou Ichigo > post-Dangai training Ichigo > God Aizen > fourth Hogyoku fusion Aizen = Reio’s husk. Hikone’s second scaling chain: Reio’s husk ~< casual Soul King Yhwach < base Hikone’s amped Cero < Soul King Yhwach ~ True Bankai Ichigo > True Shikai Hollow Ichigo’s strongest attack > True Shikai Hollow Ichigo > True Shikai Ichigo > Final Getsuga Tenshou Ichigo > post-Dangai training Ichigo > God Aizen > fourth Hogyoku fusion Aizen = Reio’s husk. Kenpachi’s first scaling chain: Full Power Hikone ~ base eyepatchless Zaraki < Shikai Kenpachi < Bankai Kenpachi. Kenpachi’s second scaling chain: Bankai Yamamoto < Reio fragments consumed Ikomikidomoe < Shikai Kenpachi < Bankai Kenpachi. Ginjo’s scaling chain: Full Power Hikone likely ~ Bankai Ginjo < emotion amped Bankai Ginjo ~ fatigued True Bankai Ichigo.

Kenpachi Zaraki and Bankai Ginjo both scale relative to Hikone who far outscales the Reio’s husk. As you are well aware at this point, Reio’s husk scales to planetary levels of power. Additionally, Hikone should downscale only slightly from a serious Muken Aizen, scaling Zaraki, Ginjo, and Hikone into large planetary. Kenpachi adding further support by scaling above Zanka no Tachi.

4.5 Narrative Consistency​

The upper echelon of the CFYOW cast posing threats to the entire world is rather consistent. As noted in section 4.1, Hikone’s sole purpose was to usurp the current Soul King (Yhwach’s remaining spiritual energy that was enshrined), where very early in the novels they are stated to possess the potential to become a Yhwach level threat. Hikone’s Zanpakuto being hailed as a world destroying force and a world ending threat all before they even reach the pinnacle of their power. The reason Hikone was sent on several battles throughout the entire story of the novels was to steadily increase their power level until they could become a suitable replacement for the Soul King. With this coming to fruition as Hikone by the third novel had obtained all the qualities of the Soul King, just as Ichigo had before him. Hikone at his maximum power was so strong that it would require the likes of Muken Aizen to fight seriously to win. Hikone’s character arc even revolves around them learning to think for themselves and realize the wrong in Tokinada’s manipulating them into becoming the next Soul King.

Ginjo being able to reach this “Soul King” tier with his strongest form and attacks while amped by emotions is believable as well. He can scrap with the likes of Hikone at their strongest, and even believes that he can contest with the power of Zangetsu. Furthermore, like Hikone and Ichigo, Ginjo is a mixing pot of all the races (Shinigami, Hollow, Quincy, and Fullbringer). Such hybrid characters are consistently far stronger than their peers, as they are genetically similar to the Reio, they are candidates for becoming the Soul King. To top it off, Ginjo is repetitively placed on a pedestal in comparison to his peers in combat. Ginjo possesses no anti-feats throughout the novel and is stated multiple times to be on the same plane of power as the god tiers of the verse.

Finally, it should be no shock to anyone that Kenpachi Zaraki reached this level of power. Not only has he far surpassed the power of the Sokyoku even before the war with the Quincies, he even reached a level of transcendence during the war. Kenpachi is a monster and has always been portrayed as a beast. The fact he is placed on the same stand as Ichigo and Aizen in characters who can defeat Hikone speaks volumes. Similar to the likes of Ginjo and Hikone, whenever he is on the battlefield he is touted as one of if not the strongest there. The battle hungry Zaraki having surpassed all pure Shinigami of and not of his era is truly worthy of his title of Kenpachi.

Stepping back and looking at all the “Soul King” power characters you’ll understand how reasonable it actually is. Kenpachi Zaraki at the height of his power as we’ve seen him in the story and the only character to reach levels of transcendence without being special in some way (no mixed race, no Hogyoku, no son of Reio, etc). Ginjo Kugo, Hikone Ubuginu, and Ichigo Kurosaki all containing the reiatsu of Shinigami, Hollow, Quincy, and Fullbringer, all Soul King candidates. Sosuke Aizen having stepped far beyond the realm of god after fusing with the Hogyoku and evolving over and over again. Yhwach, the son of Reio or power stripped directly from Reio, the current Soul King of the Bleach universe. All these characters are connected to the Reio directly or through their genetic makeup, and/or have reached levels of transcendence, these characters represent the absolute heights of combat power in Bleach.
Click to expand...



Why is that wrong?

4.1 Hikone​

-Hikone merely showed the power level and type (hybrid) to make people realize he can potentially become the linchpin, by feats he is nowhere near as he could be challenged by Ginjo and oneshoted by Shikai Zaraki.

-He is not trascendental, everyone can feel his and Zaraki's reiatsu, unlike Aizen.


4.2 Kenpachi Zaraki​

-Zaraki being Kenpachi doesn't mean he is actually the strongest, case in point Unohana was also a Kenpachi but was always weaker than Yamamoto, Zaraki too is rivaled by many characters.


4.3 Ginjo​

-Ginjo is stronger than in FB arc, but not to the point we can say he is literal tiers above the FB Bankai Ichigo that spanked his ass, double proved by him not oneshoting Tokinada who is Byakuya and Yoruichi level in reiatsu, and near equal to Shunsui in stats.


4.4 Scaling​

-Hikone is never compared to muken Aizen.

-The reio can't use his power himself, cutting him proves nothing. Case in point Ywach taking no damage from stronger attacks when using that same power.

-Dangai Ichigo is probably near equal to true Bankai Ichigo.


4.5 Narrative Consistency​

-Hikone is only ever a potential Ywach level threat.

- Ginjo is said to maybe be able to challenge Hikone, but so can Urahara and Mayuri as long as they don't get into a brute force type of fight.

-Zaraki shikai was trascendental for unseated officers, Aizen was trascendental to Isshin.
 
Last edited:
I’ll get around to this after my finals.

Edit: until then I have some pre-typed arguments for CFYOW god tiers being planetary that’ll I’ll drop later today.
 
Last edited:
As I promised, here's the original document that got those characters upgraded. However, I will highlight the relevant portions below:

Chapter 4: Can’t Fear Your Own World​

4.1 Hikone​

Hikone is an artificial soul crafted as an amalgamation of all the important races within Bleach. They were created by Tokinada in order to replace the position of Soul King with someone Tokinada could easily manipulate. Throughout the events of Can’t Fear Your Own World (CFYOW), Hikone grows immensely in strength from someone who could barely fend off the three remaining Espada and surviving Sternritter (Grimmjow, Neliel, Halibel, Liltotto, Giselle, and Zombie Bambietta) to someone so powerful they were a match for the strongest of the verse. This section will detail a large variety of scaling Hikone has that puts them as one of the strongest characters in the entire series.

The first argument is that a weaker base Hikone scales to Ikomikidomoe. Ikomikidomoe is the same Hollow that in the past was able to defeat Yamamoto (prior to Yamamoto getting his Zanpakuto). This is quite impressive considering that base Yamamoto is capable of taking the full force of his amplified Shikai flames without falling unconscious, and as mentioned in prior sections, Yamamoto scales above the likes of SAFWY Kenpachi Zaraki. There is a caveat to mention, Ikomikidomoe had his name sealed by Ichibe and is implied to have been weakened by that. However, later Hikone would fuse their and Ikomikidomoe’s power and reach heights greater than the sum of their individual powers prior, and Hikone is even stronger in base by the end of the story than when they claim to be relative to Ikomikidomoe. All this means that they should be in that same realm of power regardless.

The second argument is much more obvious and blatant than the first. The second Hikone activates their Resurreccion, everyone participating at the climactic battle (which include people who have bore witness to the Soul King in one form or another) instinctively knew Hikone possessed all the qualities to become the Soul King. This is a very peculiar statement, being that the same statement was given to Ichigo Kurosaki. As is common knowledge at this point, all the Soul King is is a lynchpin who prevents the collapse of the realms through raw spiritual energy, and both Ichigo and Hikone are brute force fighters. All they have is a large amount of power at their disposal and a reiatsu mix of all the races, and as Tokinada states, someone with the power of the races and the qualities of the Soul King can destroy the world as they please. Hikone’s full power reaching Reio levels of output is not far fetched considering what the narrator and certain characters claim about their power level.

When the narrator is listing off characters who can defeat and/or fight Hikone at their peak power, they make mention that Muken Aizen could only defeat Hikone if he were serious. To put that into a scaling chain would net the following: casual Muken Aizen < Full Power Hikone < serious Muken Aizen ~ Soul King Yhwach ~ True Bankai Ichigo > True Shikai Hollow Ichigo’s strongest attack > True Shikai Hollow Ichigo > True Shikai Ichigo > Final Getsuga Tenshou Ichigo > post-Dangai training Ichigo > God Aizen > fourth Hogyoku fusion Aizen = Reio’s husk ~ planetary. The difference between True Shikai Ichigo and True Bankai Ichigo in terms of attack potency is a hundred times, and as proposed in section 2.1, the difference between Final Getsuga Tenshou Ichigo and God Aizen is a thousand times. This would put the Reio’s corpse’s spiritual power a hundred thousand times beneath a serious Muken Aizen, meanwhile Hikone’s full power is so great it would require Aizen to be serious to win. Muken Aizen needing to get serious to defeat Hikone at their peak would indicate that Hikone is somewhat relative to Muken Aizen, and it is important to understand that you can be relative to someone and still lose to them.

Furthermore, Liltotto makes a statement that adds further consistency to Hikone being above the likes of casual god tiers in the verse. When Hikone is charging up a cero, Liltotto claimed it was an extraordinary amount of reiatsu unlike any she felt before. Liltotto having fought and lost to a casual Soul King Yhwach, should have a decent awareness of Yhwach’s casual power output. This is actually significant, as Yhwach as the new Soul King is passively keeping the planets from entirely annihilating themselves. So again, this can produce two scaling chains, both placing Hikone above Reio’s husk: planetary ~ Reio’s husk ~< casual Soul King Yhwach < base Hikone’s amped Cero < Soul King Yhwach ~ True Bankai Ichigo > True Shikai Hollow Ichigo’s strongest attack > True Shikai Hollow Ichigo > True Shikai Ichigo > Final Getsuga Tenshou Ichigo > post-Dangai training Ichigo > God Aizen > fourth Hogyoku fusion Aizen = Reio’s husk ~ planetary. As said in the previous paragraph, the difference between the god tiers and Reio’s enshrined body is a hundred thousand times. Meanwhile, Hikone is able to surpass said god tiers at their casual power.

At this point, it should be abundantly obvious that Hikone is a “Soul King” level fighter. Not only are they outright stated to possess the qualities of the Soul King, but they also are so powerful that the god tiers would have to take them seriously in a fight to be capable of winning. This shouldn’t come as a surprise, as later in section 4.5 you’ll learn how the entire point of Hikone’s character was to get this strong.

4.2 Kenpachi Zaraki​

Kenpachi doesn’t have much new scaling outside of fighting and matching Resurreccion Hikone in his base without his eyepatch. Which is quite impressive in and of itself after what was brought to light above. Additionally, Zaraki finally becomes a Kenpachi fitting of his title, as he is finally the strongest Shinigami as confirmed by the author. However, the most interesting feat comes from when Zaraki fights Ikomikidomoe.

After Hikone’s defeat, Ikomikidomoe can finally burst forth and he consumes fragments of the Reio to break Ichibe’s seal by gaining a vast amount of power. However, this is all for naught as Kenpachi releases Nozarashi and obliterates Ikomikidomoe. This is sneakily impressive thanks to a fight that occurs between Ichibe and Yhwach in the manga. Yhwach steals Yamamoto’s Bankai within his medallion before killing Yamamoto in the first invasion. Then during the second invasion, Ichibe is able to seal Yamamoto’s Bankai and prevent Yhwach from making use of it. Because Ikomikidomoe was able to break free from Ichibe’s seal with raw power, but Yamamoto’s Bankai could be sealed by Ichibe just fine, that would prove that Ikomikidomoe in that instant surpassed Yamamoto’s Bankai. Then Kenpachi one shot that Ikomikidomoe. Zaraki surpassing an opponent who surpassed Zanka no Tachi is quite the impressive feat.

4.3 Ginjo​

Ginjo is a very interesting and underrated character within the events of CFYOW. Particularly a statement that has drawn quite the controversy is of interest here, and we shall explain why it’s actually rather consistent. Ginjo’s Getsuga Tenshou rivaled Ichigo’s strongest Getsuga as stated by the narrator. Now let’s break this down.

First thing to draw attention to is Ginjo’s state in this scene. Ginjo when he fires this attack is in his Bankai and it is outright stated that this attack was amplified by the intense emotions he was feeling at the time. Ginjo’s Bankai is a tad bit different from your average Bankai, if you pay close attention to its appearance you’ll notice it is very Hollow-like. This isn’t surprising because Ginjo stole Ichigo’s powers (containing reiatsu from all races), as indicated by the characteristic black eyes and tattoo markings even Ichigo would later adorn in the final arc with his Hollow powers. Ginjo can even fire a Cero (or Cero-like) attack in Bankai. The point here being that Ginjo is receiving Bankai and Hollow amps in this state. Furthermore, we know your emotions and state of mind can enhance your power as stated by Yoruichi, and with how Ichigo’s emotions vastly affect his power level. Ginjo was even stated to be able to possibly combat Hikone had he not been preoccupied. So, we have an emotion amped, Bankai-Hollow form that’s fused with the reiatsu of all races, Soul King candidate who can put up a fight against Resurreccion Hikone, Ginjo’s strongest Getsuga rivaling Ichigo’s strongest Getsuga (as seen in the story this would refer to this attack). Emotion amped Bankai Ginjo being able to reach a fatigued True Bankai Ichigo’s power is not only outright stated, but also backed up by other statements within CFYOW.

4.4 Scaling​

There are a few scaling chains introduced within CFYOW, some of which you’ve been introduced to above. We’ll run down a simplified list of the chains. Hikone’s first scaling chain: casual Muken Aizen < Full Power Hikone < serious Muken Aizen ~ Soul King Yhwach ~ True Bankai Ichigo > True Shikai Hollow Ichigo’s strongest attack > True Shikai Hollow Ichigo > True Shikai Ichigo > Final Getsuga Tenshou Ichigo > post-Dangai training Ichigo > God Aizen > fourth Hogyoku fusion Aizen = Reio’s husk. Hikone’s second scaling chain: Reio’s husk ~< casual Soul King Yhwach < base Hikone’s amped Cero < Soul King Yhwach ~ True Bankai Ichigo > True Shikai Hollow Ichigo’s strongest attack > True Shikai Hollow Ichigo > True Shikai Ichigo > Final Getsuga Tenshou Ichigo > post-Dangai training Ichigo > God Aizen > fourth Hogyoku fusion Aizen = Reio’s husk. Kenpachi’s first scaling chain: Full Power Hikone ~ base eyepatchless Zaraki < Shikai Kenpachi < Bankai Kenpachi. Kenpachi’s second scaling chain: Bankai Yamamoto < Reio fragments consumed Ikomikidomoe < Shikai Kenpachi < Bankai Kenpachi. Ginjo’s scaling chain: Full Power Hikone likely ~ Bankai Ginjo < emotion amped Bankai Ginjo ~ fatigued True Bankai Ichigo.

Kenpachi Zaraki and Bankai Ginjo both scale relative to Hikone who far outscales the Reio’s husk. As you are well aware at this point, Reio’s husk scales to planetary levels of power. Additionally, Hikone should downscale only slightly from a serious Muken Aizen, scaling Zaraki, Ginjo, and Hikone into large planetary. Kenpachi adding further support by scaling above Zanka no Tachi.

4.5 Narrative Consistency​

The upper echelon of the CFYOW cast posing threats to the entire world is rather consistent. As noted in section 4.1, Hikone’s sole purpose was to usurp the current Soul King (Yhwach’s remaining spiritual energy that was enshrined), where very early in the novels they are stated to possess the potential to become a Yhwach level threat. Hikone’s Zanpakuto being hailed as a world destroying force and a world ending threat all before they even reach the pinnacle of their power. The reason Hikone was sent on several battles throughout the entire story of the novels was to steadily increase their power level until they could become a suitable replacement for the Soul King. With this coming to fruition as Hikone by the third novel had obtained all the qualities of the Soul King, just as Ichigo had before him. Hikone at his maximum power was so strong that it would require the likes of Muken Aizen to fight seriously to win. Hikone’s character arc even revolves around them learning to think for themselves and realize the wrong in Tokinada’s manipulating them into becoming the next Soul King.

Ginjo being able to reach this “Soul King” tier with his strongest form and attacks while amped by emotions is believable as well. He can scrap with the likes of Hikone at their strongest, and even believes that he can contest with the power of Zangetsu. Furthermore, like Hikone and Ichigo, Ginjo is a mixing pot of all the races (Shinigami, Hollow, Quincy, and Fullbringer). Such hybrid characters are consistently far stronger than their peers, as they are genetically similar to the Reio, they are candidates for becoming the Soul King. To top it off, Ginjo is repetitively placed on a pedestal in comparison to his peers in combat. Ginjo possesses no anti-feats throughout the novel and is stated multiple times to be on the same plane of power as the god tiers of the verse.

Finally, it should be no shock to anyone that Kenpachi Zaraki reached this level of power. Not only has he far surpassed the power of the Sokyoku even before the war with the Quincies, he even reached a level of transcendence during the war. Kenpachi is a monster and has always been portrayed as a beast. The fact he is placed on the same stand as Ichigo and Aizen in characters who can defeat Hikone speaks volumes. Similar to the likes of Ginjo and Hikone, whenever he is on the battlefield he is touted as one of if not the strongest there. The battle hungry Zaraki having surpassed all pure Shinigami of and not of his era is truly worthy of his title of Kenpachi.

Stepping back and looking at all the “Soul King” power characters you’ll understand how reasonable it actually is. Kenpachi Zaraki at the height of his power as we’ve seen him in the story and the only character to reach levels of transcendence without being special in some way (no mixed race, no Hogyoku, no son of Reio, etc). Ginjo Kugo, Hikone Ubuginu, and Ichigo Kurosaki all containing the reiatsu of Shinigami, Hollow, Quincy, and Fullbringer, all Soul King candidates. Sosuke Aizen having stepped far beyond the realm of god after fusing with the Hogyoku and evolving over and over again. Yhwach, the son of Reio or power stripped directly from Reio, the current Soul King of the Bleach universe. All these characters are connected to the Reio directly or through their genetic makeup, and/or have reached levels of transcendence, these characters represent the absolute heights of combat power in Bleach.
 
Hasch said:
So does anyone has any counter argument or can we just proceed with the changes?

@Antvasima
Click to expand...
Arc7Kuroi said:
As I promised, here's the original document that got those characters upgraded. However, I will highlight the relevant portions below:

Chapter 4: Can’t Fear Your Own World​

4.1 Hikone​

Hikone is an artificial soul crafted as an amalgamation of all the important races within Bleach. They were created by Tokinada in order to replace the position of Soul King with someone Tokinada could easily manipulate. Throughout the events of Can’t Fear Your Own World (CFYOW), Hikone grows immensely in strength from someone who could barely fend off the three remaining Espada and surviving Sternritter (Grimmjow, Neliel, Halibel, Liltotto, Giselle, and Zombie Bambietta) to someone so powerful they were a match for the strongest of the verse. This section will detail a large variety of scaling Hikone has that puts them as one of the strongest characters in the entire series.

The first argument is that a weaker base Hikone scales to Ikomikidomoe. Ikomikidomoe is the same Hollow that in the past was able to defeat Yamamoto (prior to Yamamoto getting his Zanpakuto). This is quite impressive considering that base Yamamoto is capable of taking the full force of his amplified Shikai flames without falling unconscious, and as mentioned in prior sections, Yamamoto scales above the likes of SAFWY Kenpachi Zaraki. There is a caveat to mention, Ikomikidomoe had his name sealed by Ichibe and is implied to have been weakened by that. However, later Hikone would fuse their and Ikomikidomoe’s power and reach heights greater than the sum of their individual powers prior, and Hikone is even stronger in base by the end of the story than when they claim to be relative to Ikomikidomoe. All this means that they should be in that same realm of power regardless.

The second argument is much more obvious and blatant than the first. The second Hikone activates their Resurreccion, everyone participating at the climactic battle (which include people who have bore witness to the Soul King in one form or another) instinctively knew Hikone possessed all the qualities to become the Soul King. This is a very peculiar statement, being that the same statement was given to Ichigo Kurosaki. As is common knowledge at this point, all the Soul King is is a lynchpin who prevents the collapse of the realms through raw spiritual energy, and both Ichigo and Hikone are brute force fighters. All they have is a large amount of power at their disposal and a reiatsu mix of all the races, and as Tokinada states, someone with the power of the races and the qualities of the Soul King can destroy the world as they please. Hikone’s full power reaching Reio levels of output is not far fetched considering what the narrator and certain characters claim about their power level.

When the narrator is listing off characters who can defeat and/or fight Hikone at their peak power, they make mention that Muken Aizen could only defeat Hikone if he were serious. To put that into a scaling chain would net the following: casual Muken Aizen < Full Power Hikone < serious Muken Aizen ~ Soul King Yhwach ~ True Bankai Ichigo > True Shikai Hollow Ichigo’s strongest attack > True Shikai Hollow Ichigo > True Shikai Ichigo > Final Getsuga Tenshou Ichigo > post-Dangai training Ichigo > God Aizen > fourth Hogyoku fusion Aizen = Reio’s husk ~ planetary. The difference between True Shikai Ichigo and True Bankai Ichigo in terms of attack potency is a hundred times, and as proposed in section 2.1, the difference between Final Getsuga Tenshou Ichigo and God Aizen is a thousand times. This would put the Reio’s corpse’s spiritual power a hundred thousand times beneath a serious Muken Aizen, meanwhile Hikone’s full power is so great it would require Aizen to be serious to win. Muken Aizen needing to get serious to defeat Hikone at their peak would indicate that Hikone is somewhat relative to Muken Aizen, and it is important to understand that you can be relative to someone and still lose to them.

Furthermore, Liltotto makes a statement that adds further consistency to Hikone being above the likes of casual god tiers in the verse. When Hikone is charging up a cero, Liltotto claimed it was an extraordinary amount of reiatsu unlike any she felt before. Liltotto having fought and lost to a casual Soul King Yhwach, should have a decent awareness of Yhwach’s casual power output. This is actually significant, as Yhwach as the new Soul King is passively keeping the planets from entirely annihilating themselves. So again, this can produce two scaling chains, both placing Hikone above Reio’s husk: planetary ~ Reio’s husk ~< casual Soul King Yhwach < base Hikone’s amped Cero < Soul King Yhwach ~ True Bankai Ichigo > True Shikai Hollow Ichigo’s strongest attack > True Shikai Hollow Ichigo > True Shikai Ichigo > Final Getsuga Tenshou Ichigo > post-Dangai training Ichigo > God Aizen > fourth Hogyoku fusion Aizen = Reio’s husk ~ planetary. As said in the previous paragraph, the difference between the god tiers and Reio’s enshrined body is a hundred thousand times. Meanwhile, Hikone is able to surpass said god tiers at their casual power.

At this point, it should be abundantly obvious that Hikone is a “Soul King” level fighter. Not only are they outright stated to possess the qualities of the Soul King, but they also are so powerful that the god tiers would have to take them seriously in a fight to be capable of winning. This shouldn’t come as a surprise, as later in section 4.5 you’ll learn how the entire point of Hikone’s character was to get this strong.

4.2 Kenpachi Zaraki​

Kenpachi doesn’t have much new scaling outside of fighting and matching Resurreccion Hikone in his base without his eyepatch. Which is quite impressive in and of itself after what was brought to light above. Additionally, Zaraki finally becomes a Kenpachi fitting of his title, as he is finally the strongest Shinigami as confirmed by the author. However, the most interesting feat comes from when Zaraki fights Ikomikidomoe.

After Hikone’s defeat, Ikomikidomoe can finally burst forth and he consumes fragments of the Reio to break Ichibe’s seal by gaining a vast amount of power. However, this is all for naught as Kenpachi releases Nozarashi and obliterates Ikomikidomoe. This is sneakily impressive thanks to a fight that occurs between Ichibe and Yhwach in the manga. Yhwach steals Yamamoto’s Bankai within his medallion before killing Yamamoto in the first invasion. Then during the second invasion, Ichibe is able to seal Yamamoto’s Bankai and prevent Yhwach from making use of it. Because Ikomikidomoe was able to break free from Ichibe’s seal with raw power, but Yamamoto’s Bankai could be sealed by Ichibe just fine, that would prove that Ikomikidomoe in that instant surpassed Yamamoto’s Bankai. Then Kenpachi one shot that Ikomikidomoe. Zaraki surpassing an opponent who surpassed Zanka no Tachi is quite the impressive feat.

4.3 Ginjo​

Ginjo is a very interesting and underrated character within the events of CFYOW. Particularly a statement that has drawn quite the controversy is of interest here, and we shall explain why it’s actually rather consistent. Ginjo’s Getsuga Tenshou rivaled Ichigo’s strongest Getsuga as stated by the narrator. Now let’s break this down.

First thing to draw attention to is Ginjo’s state in this scene. Ginjo when he fires this attack is in his Bankai and it is outright stated that this attack was amplified by the intense emotions he was feeling at the time. Ginjo’s Bankai is a tad bit different from your average Bankai, if you pay close attention to its appearance you’ll notice it is very Hollow-like. This isn’t surprising because Ginjo stole Ichigo’s powers (containing reiatsu from all races), as indicated by the characteristic black eyes and tattoo markings even Ichigo would later adorn in the final arc with his Hollow powers. Ginjo can even fire a Cero (or Cero-like) attack in Bankai. The point here being that Ginjo is receiving Bankai and Hollow amps in this state. Furthermore, we know your emotions and state of mind can enhance your power as stated by Yoruichi, and with how Ichigo’s emotions vastly affect his power level. Ginjo was even stated to be able to possibly combat Hikone had he not been preoccupied. So, we have an emotion amped, Bankai-Hollow form that’s fused with the reiatsu of all races, Soul King candidate who can put up a fight against Resurreccion Hikone, Ginjo’s strongest Getsuga rivaling Ichigo’s strongest Getsuga (as seen in the story this would refer to this attack). Emotion amped Bankai Ginjo being able to reach a fatigued True Bankai Ichigo’s power is not only outright stated, but also backed up by other statements within CFYOW.

4.4 Scaling​

There are a few scaling chains introduced within CFYOW, some of which you’ve been introduced to above. We’ll run down a simplified list of the chains. Hikone’s first scaling chain: casual Muken Aizen < Full Power Hikone < serious Muken Aizen ~ Soul King Yhwach ~ True Bankai Ichigo > True Shikai Hollow Ichigo’s strongest attack > True Shikai Hollow Ichigo > True Shikai Ichigo > Final Getsuga Tenshou Ichigo > post-Dangai training Ichigo > God Aizen > fourth Hogyoku fusion Aizen = Reio’s husk. Hikone’s second scaling chain: Reio’s husk ~< casual Soul King Yhwach < base Hikone’s amped Cero < Soul King Yhwach ~ True Bankai Ichigo > True Shikai Hollow Ichigo’s strongest attack > True Shikai Hollow Ichigo > True Shikai Ichigo > Final Getsuga Tenshou Ichigo > post-Dangai training Ichigo > God Aizen > fourth Hogyoku fusion Aizen = Reio’s husk. Kenpachi’s first scaling chain: Full Power Hikone ~ base eyepatchless Zaraki < Shikai Kenpachi < Bankai Kenpachi. Kenpachi’s second scaling chain: Bankai Yamamoto < Reio fragments consumed Ikomikidomoe < Shikai Kenpachi < Bankai Kenpachi. Ginjo’s scaling chain: Full Power Hikone likely ~ Bankai Ginjo < emotion amped Bankai Ginjo ~ fatigued True Bankai Ichigo.

Kenpachi Zaraki and Bankai Ginjo both scale relative to Hikone who far outscales the Reio’s husk. As you are well aware at this point, Reio’s husk scales to planetary levels of power. Additionally, Hikone should downscale only slightly from a serious Muken Aizen, scaling Zaraki, Ginjo, and Hikone into large planetary. Kenpachi adding further support by scaling above Zanka no Tachi.

4.5 Narrative Consistency​

The upper echelon of the CFYOW cast posing threats to the entire world is rather consistent. As noted in section 4.1, Hikone’s sole purpose was to usurp the current Soul King (Yhwach’s remaining spiritual energy that was enshrined), where very early in the novels they are stated to possess the potential to become a Yhwach level threat. Hikone’s Zanpakuto being hailed as a world destroying force and a world ending threat all before they even reach the pinnacle of their power. The reason Hikone was sent on several battles throughout the entire story of the novels was to steadily increase their power level until they could become a suitable replacement for the Soul King. With this coming to fruition as Hikone by the third novel had obtained all the qualities of the Soul King, just as Ichigo had before him. Hikone at his maximum power was so strong that it would require the likes of Muken Aizen to fight seriously to win. Hikone’s character arc even revolves around them learning to think for themselves and realize the wrong in Tokinada’s manipulating them into becoming the next Soul King.

Ginjo being able to reach this “Soul King” tier with his strongest form and attacks while amped by emotions is believable as well. He can scrap with the likes of Hikone at their strongest, and even believes that he can contest with the power of Zangetsu. Furthermore, like Hikone and Ichigo, Ginjo is a mixing pot of all the races (Shinigami, Hollow, Quincy, and Fullbringer). Such hybrid characters are consistently far stronger than their peers, as they are genetically similar to the Reio, they are candidates for becoming the Soul King. To top it off, Ginjo is repetitively placed on a pedestal in comparison to his peers in combat. Ginjo possesses no anti-feats throughout the novel and is stated multiple times to be on the same plane of power as the god tiers of the verse.

Finally, it should be no shock to anyone that Kenpachi Zaraki reached this level of power. Not only has he far surpassed the power of the Sokyoku even before the war with the Quincies, he even reached a level of transcendence during the war. Kenpachi is a monster and has always been portrayed as a beast. The fact he is placed on the same stand as Ichigo and Aizen in characters who can defeat Hikone speaks volumes. Similar to the likes of Ginjo and Hikone, whenever he is on the battlefield he is touted as one of if not the strongest there. The battle hungry Zaraki having surpassed all pure Shinigami of and not of his era is truly worthy of his title of Kenpachi.

Stepping back and looking at all the “Soul King” power characters you’ll understand how reasonable it actually is. Kenpachi Zaraki at the height of his power as we’ve seen him in the story and the only character to reach levels of transcendence without being special in some way (no mixed race, no Hogyoku, no son of Reio, etc). Ginjo Kugo, Hikone Ubuginu, and Ichigo Kurosaki all containing the reiatsu of Shinigami, Hollow, Quincy, and Fullbringer, all Soul King candidates. Sosuke Aizen having stepped far beyond the realm of god after fusing with the Hogyoku and evolving over and over again. Yhwach, the son of Reio or power stripped directly from Reio, the current Soul King of the Bleach universe. All these characters are connected to the Reio directly or through their genetic makeup, and/or have reached levels of transcendence, these characters represent the absolute heights of combat power in Bleach.
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🗿
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
I responded to your thread buddy, read my response.
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You just copied the thing I already had cited at the OP, that does nothing to counter anything I said.

Hikone just isn't even on the level of the first evolved Aizen.
 
Hasch said:
Dangai Ichigo is probably near equal to true Bankai Ichigo.
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A. saying stuff like "probably" is nothing more than pointless speculation and in no way debunks my argument.
B. provide scans to support your argument or it quite literally is nothing but your pure headcanon.
C. familiarize yourself with the accepted scaling on vsbw, as it stands on site rn we scale TB Ichigo far above Dangai Ichigo (so if you want to contradict accepted scaling you have to then make an argument for your scaling).

I hate to sound arrogant, but you typing a few lines saying stuff like "this might be like that" or "this is probably true" with no scans whatsoever, is in no way, shape, or form a more sound argument than what I provided.
 
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Arc7Kuroi said:
A. saying stuff like "probably" is nothing more than pointless speculation and in no way debunks my argument.
B. provide scans to support your argument or it quite literally is nothing but your pure headcanon.
C. familiarize yourself with the accepted scaling on vsbw, as it stands on site rn we scale TB Ichigo far above Dangai Ichigo (so if you want to contradict accepted scaling you have to then make an argument for your scaling).
Click to expand...

That's the least important aspect of my argument, but is simple, before Bankai EOS Ichigo is not trascendental, has bad feats, and there's no difference between his true zanpakuto and Dangai except using a real Asauchi which is never said to make a great difference.

You could say that Zangetsu has a line about never using his full power, but that's simply not true and he is ignoring the events in the Aizen fight.

Do you have any actual counterargument as to why Hikone is anywhere near Aizen which is the basic point of your argument?
 
Hasch said:
Ginjo is stronger than in FB arc, but not to the point we can say he is literal tiers above the FB Bankai Ichigo that spanked his ass, double proved by him not oneshoting Tokinada who is Byakuya and Yoruichi level in reiatsu, and near equal to Shunsui in stats.
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Ginjo is only 5-A with one attack that didn't touch Tokinada...
 
fat-guy-falling-off-chair-fast-chair-pissed-off-fast.gif
 
@Arc7Kuroi Still waiting for you to try and refute anything said in the OP.


Arcker123 said:
Ginjo is only 5-A with one attack that didn't touch Tokinada...
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Is absurd to believe someone that is not transcendental, that would only give a decent fight to Hikone who would be oneshoted by Zaraki Shikai, and who has never benefited from exponential power ups just from rage,something that has never happened to anybody in the manga, can hit harder than the Ichigo that oneshoted Ywach.

If he did, he 100% wouldn't have that attack even slightly deflected by Tokinada's random beam slash. Tokinada who is weaker than base Aizen from FKT, not any of the evolved versions.

The statement doesn't even mentions which version of Ichigo is using.

CFYOW_C23_Bankai_Getsuga_rivals_Ichigos.jpg
 
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The OP needs to have scans before this can even be considered.
Hasch said:
Well good luck with that, if nobody else has anything we should proceed to change the profiles.
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No, you need the thread to actually be approved before you can edit the profiles.
 
Hasch said:
Is absurd to believe someone that is not transcendental, that would only give a decent fight to Hikone who would be oneshoted by Zaraki Shikai, and who has never benefited from exponential power ups just from rage,something that has never happened to anybody in the manga, can hit harder than the Ichigo that oneshoted Ywach.
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Who are all 5-A…..

Incredulity is not an argument


Hasch said:
If he did, he 100% wouldn't have that attack even slightly deflected by Tokinada's random beam slash. Tokinada who is weaker than base Aizen from FKT, not any of the evolved versions.
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It wasn’t? The 5-A getsuga missed.
Hasch said:
The statement doesn't even mentions which version of Ichigo is using.
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The statement used in the og upgrade described it as “the strongest getsuga from ichigo” or sum like. That’s the strongest getsuga is 5-A
 
LordTracer said:
The OP needs to have scans before this can even be considered.
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All the needed scans are in the quoted text.


Arcker123 said:
It wasn’t? The 5-A getsuga missed.
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Yes it was, the scan is right there. The getsuga missed because Tokinada altered the direction with a Benihime slash.


Arcker123 said:
Who are all 5-A…..

Incredulity is not an argument
Click to expand...

Being weaker than shikai Zaraki disproves that.

Consistency and the canon story are, the very moment anyone can sense Hikone and Zaraki this entire thing makes zero sense, because this page exists
https://****************/wp-content/uploads/WP-manga/data/manga_6175ee9eba8bd/908ff6b66f0815aff668184f3866d271/054.jpg


Arcker123 said:
The statement used in the og upgrade described it as “the strongest getsuga from ichigo” or sum like. That’s the strongest getsuga is 5-A
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Doesn't state which Ichigo, the novel doesn't add details on versions so they must be defined by context, for example every Aizen mention is about base Aizen since that's the version whose feats Tokinada can't replicate.


Damage3245 said:
Damn, not even I'm this desperate to downgrade Bleach.

This thread just makes me shake my head.
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Do you have anything constructive to add?
 
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