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@SchutzenDunkelZiel1217: Apologies, I was unaware of that. May I quickly ask why the mulitpliers were denied?
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Regarding Base Goku's speed during Namek saga...
- Thread starter SchutzenDunkelZiel1217
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@Aimenaltair: Uhhh no I was explaining what was wrong with bleach as as whole. Well it's crappy enough as it is.
Listen I never said that the SSJ multiplier didn't increase speed just that it was an unknown. If you guys seriously want it then it will be put under consideration then (since this is a community discussion the whole community is gonna make the decisions not just the admins). But I want to be able to look through some feats first. An upgrade is already due as I've already said but even if we have to make the upgrade I'd rather if it were from specific feats but again first we'll look through FanofRPGs calcs and if that doesn't work then we'll see what we can do with the SSJ multipliers.
@Sheoth: There's no need to apologize. Why it wasn't accepted. It was because other franchises would have to be upgraded the same way then which would make for infinite upgrades without any feats whatsoever. If the multipliers were used that way then other franchises could be FTL without have any feats which suggest any level even near that. This was the reason.
Listen I never said that the SSJ multiplier didn't increase speed just that it was an unknown. If you guys seriously want it then it will be put under consideration then (since this is a community discussion the whole community is gonna make the decisions not just the admins). But I want to be able to look through some feats first. An upgrade is already due as I've already said but even if we have to make the upgrade I'd rather if it were from specific feats but again first we'll look through FanofRPGs calcs and if that doesn't work then we'll see what we can do with the SSJ multipliers.
@Sheoth: There's no need to apologize. Why it wasn't accepted. It was because other franchises would have to be upgraded the same way then which would make for infinite upgrades without any feats whatsoever. If the multipliers were used that way then other franchises could be FTL without have any feats which suggest any level even near that. This was the reason.
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There is one thing we should also remember. Before he arrived on namek, Goku did his training at 100 G. When he arrived he was a LOT faster than Burter and Jeice (while burter was able to blitz Vegeta after he had two zenkais (healed after his battle against goku and then healed after his battle against Zabon).
In saiyan saga, Goku had to use his kaioken 3 against Vegeta to be at his level (vegeta was 3 time faster than him then). This vegeta is faster and stronger than the one Goku fought on earth, but he isn't that much stronger and faster. To be honnest, I think he is 5 time faster than saiyan saga goku. However, even like this Burter is easily twice faster than Vegeta (because he couldn't follow Burter with his eyes when Vegeta threw the dragon ball away). So burter is 10 times faster than Saiyan saga goku. However, after his training, Goku managed to surpass Burter's speed using only 2/3 of his base form's full power (Ginue immediately understood he hasn't use his base form's full power against his men).
Goku (2/3 base form) is 1,5 time faster than Burter (15 times faster than his saiyan saga counterpart).
Goku (base full power) is twice faster than Burter (20 times faster than his saiyan saga counterpart).
Then captain ginue was slightly better than base goku.
So if we consider saiyan saga vegeta is realistic (min 10% of light speed). I think it's safe to consider Goku (base full power on namek but before the fight against frieza) who's 7 time stronger than vegeta is at light speed in his base form and ftl when using his kaioken.
What do you think of that?
In saiyan saga, Goku had to use his kaioken 3 against Vegeta to be at his level (vegeta was 3 time faster than him then). This vegeta is faster and stronger than the one Goku fought on earth, but he isn't that much stronger and faster. To be honnest, I think he is 5 time faster than saiyan saga goku. However, even like this Burter is easily twice faster than Vegeta (because he couldn't follow Burter with his eyes when Vegeta threw the dragon ball away). So burter is 10 times faster than Saiyan saga goku. However, after his training, Goku managed to surpass Burter's speed using only 2/3 of his base form's full power (Ginue immediately understood he hasn't use his base form's full power against his men).
Goku (2/3 base form) is 1,5 time faster than Burter (15 times faster than his saiyan saga counterpart).
Goku (base full power) is twice faster than Burter (20 times faster than his saiyan saga counterpart).
Then captain ginue was slightly better than base goku.
So if we consider saiyan saga vegeta is realistic (min 10% of light speed). I think it's safe to consider Goku (base full power on namek but before the fight against frieza) who's 7 time stronger than vegeta is at light speed in his base form and ftl when using his kaioken.
What do you think of that?
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i am with you in that point, if we use multipliers in one franchise we should use them on the others, but wait does any multiplier have been stated in manga or guidebooks in bleach?SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 said:
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@Jeune fou: We can't exactly use what you're suggesting as Goku was said to be 10 times faster and stronger after arriving on Namek. So we have a 10X increase there.
@Aimenaltair: Yep Bankai increases a person's power by 5 to 10 times at the very least. Literally none of the characters on the franchise use this multiplier however. Well let's not discuss about Bleach. And keep things with DBZ kay'. I'd rather not deal with a Bleach storm from hell (just a replacement for the saying Sh*tstorm) right now...
@Aimenaltair: Yep Bankai increases a person's power by 5 to 10 times at the very least. Literally none of the characters on the franchise use this multiplier however. Well let's not discuss about Bleach. And keep things with DBZ kay'. I'd rather not deal with a Bleach storm from hell (just a replacement for the saying Sh*tstorm) right now...
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Okay, I am still confused. From what you just told me, the Bleach characters had legitimate speed feats via blitz that would warrant an upgrade.
So does this mean that they weren't upgraded because the blitzing simply wasn't quantified as being fast enought to warrant an upgrade? Or was it that because we don't want to deal with upgrading numerous other franchises due to the same reason?
Because from what I see, Ichigo having achieved Bankai, his speed increased by a good margin. So we are basically denying legitimate displays because we don't want to increase the work load, or am I mistaken...
So does this mean that they weren't upgraded because the blitzing simply wasn't quantified as being fast enought to warrant an upgrade? Or was it that because we don't want to deal with upgrading numerous other franchises due to the same reason?
Because from what I see, Ichigo having achieved Bankai, his speed increased by a good margin. So we are basically denying legitimate displays because we don't want to increase the work load, or am I mistaken...
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I think this is how the speed should progress, this is if the Kaio Ken multipliers are discluded during the Freeza Saga and beyond
Saiya-Jin Saga: Sub-relativistic+, with relativistic top tiers
Namek Saga: Sub relativistic and low relativistic, Goku and Ginyu are Relativistic+, and Goku is temporarily low FTL using the Kaio-Ken x2
Freeza Saga: low FTL, mid FTL for Goku and Freeza initially, and high FTL for 100% and SSJ Goku
Cell Saga: mid FTL for the low tiers, high FTL for the SSJs, low FTL+ for everything up to initial Perfect Cell, mid FTL+ for everything above that
Boo Saga: mid-high FTL+ to low MFTL
Saiya-Jin Saga: Sub-relativistic+, with relativistic top tiers
Namek Saga: Sub relativistic and low relativistic, Goku and Ginyu are Relativistic+, and Goku is temporarily low FTL using the Kaio-Ken x2
Freeza Saga: low FTL, mid FTL for Goku and Freeza initially, and high FTL for 100% and SSJ Goku
Cell Saga: mid FTL for the low tiers, high FTL for the SSJs, low FTL+ for everything up to initial Perfect Cell, mid FTL+ for everything above that
Boo Saga: mid-high FTL+ to low MFTL
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True ... this is also confirmed by his power level (8 000 in base form in saiyan saga and 90 000 on namek after training).SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 said:
Alright, so ... let's consider he is 10 time faster. that makes him like 3.5 faster than saiyan saga vegeta. He would then become most likely relativistic + (base form full power on namek before Frieza) and light speed or ftl using kaioken 2?
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@Sheoth: Let's let this be the final post regarding bleach. Byakuya's Bankai was calculated to be mach 29 and Bankai Ichigo casually was out pacing Byakuya's Bankai. Meaning that he was above above 29 from the start. After that various blitzes happen which made indexing a pain in the ass. So it was considered that blitzes simply weren't quantifiable so everyone was rated at Mach 29+ even though a lot of them should be much higher than mach 29.
What I tried to do was use the bankai multiplier which used a 5 to 10 increase to say that Bankai Ichigo would be 5X Shikai Ichigo in speed as the specific ability of his bankai was to increase speed which would make him around 2.5 X mach 29 and later on use this upgrade for his post timeskip bankai. And that's how it came down to the whole thing. Since there were literally no direct feats or calcs which supported just having the multiplier would seem more like the multiplier was just inconsistent and a few others.
I've already accepted that what I proposed was with the speed multiplier on the bleach thing was wrong so I'd rather not deal with this...
@Jeune fou: He's already more or less considered to be relativistic+ in base in saiyan saga.
What I tried to do was use the bankai multiplier which used a 5 to 10 increase to say that Bankai Ichigo would be 5X Shikai Ichigo in speed as the specific ability of his bankai was to increase speed which would make him around 2.5 X mach 29 and later on use this upgrade for his post timeskip bankai. And that's how it came down to the whole thing. Since there were literally no direct feats or calcs which supported just having the multiplier would seem more like the multiplier was just inconsistent and a few others.
I've already accepted that what I proposed was with the speed multiplier on the bleach thing was wrong so I'd rather not deal with this...
@Jeune fou: He's already more or less considered to be relativistic+ in base in saiyan saga.
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I'll make a blog post regarding this thread with a calc filled with everything I've gathered until now...
Well be happy you've got a FTL DBZ but it's unknown if it'll be accepted though...
Well be happy you've got a FTL DBZ but it's unknown if it'll be accepted though...
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Luck huh well I'm gonna need all the luck I can get and I'm supposed to be the impartial judge here and yet I'm gonna make blog post supporting FTL DBZ. Heh such an interesting turn of events. Well the blog post will be up tomorrow take a look at it when it's up kay'...
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Alright...
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so where are saiyan, name and cell saga as of now?
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This isn't accepted yet and is simply a rough outline.
Saiyan Saga Base Goku = Sub-Relativistic+ (7% SOL)
Saiyan Saga KaiokenX2 Goku = Relativistic (14% SOL)
Saiyan Saga KaiokenX3 Goku = Relativistic (21% SOL)
Namek Saga Base Goku = Relativistic+ (70% SOL)
Namek Saga KaiokenX10 Goku = FTL (7X FTL)
Namek Saga KaiokenX20 Goku = FTL+ (14X FTL)
I can't quite say the others just yet. I'll leave them as a surprise. For the Cell Saga and later ones there's gonna have to be another discussion for that. But we get FTL for Frieza Saga but don't get your hopes up just yet this hasn't been accepted just yet and still needs input...
Saiyan Saga Base Goku = Sub-Relativistic+ (7% SOL)
Saiyan Saga KaiokenX2 Goku = Relativistic (14% SOL)
Saiyan Saga KaiokenX3 Goku = Relativistic (21% SOL)
Namek Saga Base Goku = Relativistic+ (70% SOL)
Namek Saga KaiokenX10 Goku = FTL (7X FTL)
Namek Saga KaiokenX20 Goku = FTL+ (14X FTL)
I can't quite say the others just yet. I'll leave them as a surprise. For the Cell Saga and later ones there's gonna have to be another discussion for that. But we get FTL for Frieza Saga but don't get your hopes up just yet this hasn't been accepted just yet and still needs input...
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sounds reasonable
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WAIT!, I have 1 question.....with these upgrades will it mean that Yamcha can finally solo a verse?.
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he can already solo many verses.....CaptainFalcon64 said:
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I'm thinking that this is a joke well maybe we'll just have to wait and see (^_^)...CaptainFalcon64 said:
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lol we have to give Yamcha some credits don't you think?SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 said:
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Well once the blog post for this calc of sort is up a new thread will be made this time for input to see if everyone accepts the changes. So I'll be closing this thread after I make that blog post...
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I agree with this.SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 said:
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read the posts aboveThePerpetual said:
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Of course but he's... Yamcha...CaptainFalcon64 said:lol we have to give Yamcha some credits don't you think?
@ThePerpetual: This thread has already served it's purpose. And it will be closed soon once I've made that blog post for the new speed stats and a new thread will be started for that.
Although I must say this thread has nearly twice the amount of replies as the Cell Solar System Level thread. This is quite a shocker....
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Speed is important -_-SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 said:Of course but he's... Yamcha...CaptainFalcon64 said:lol we have to give Yamcha some credits don't you think?
@ThePerpetual: This thread has already served it's purpose. And it will be closed soon once I've made that blog post for the new speed stats and a new thread will be started for that.
Although I must say this thread has nearly twice the amount of replies as the Cell Solar System Level thread. This is quite a shocker....
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Ah yes it certainly is...
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tbh if the kaoiken multiplier is used, same shud be th case with the ssj multiplier be used
Stefano4444
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Just to ask, this is based about the Official Power Levels of Dragon Ball? Or that is based about mere powerscale?FanofRPGs said:
Because if what you said is based about Power Levels, then Frieza is suppost to be already MFTL (if he is already FTL in his Base Form).
Anyway, more or less this sound right for me.
Even if i think that Vegeta Saiyan Saga should be already FTL (or at least Relativistic+ to LS).
Stefano4444
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If we use the Manga's timeframe, then the beam reach the Moon in a single second at best.Aimenaltair said:
Also, another fact that it see that nobody talk about here.
Krillin and Gohan (at Namek) weren't able to be equal fast as their own KI blasts?
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/3/37144/4267707-gul1.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/3/37144/4267708-gul2.jpg
And via Power Levels, they are suppost to be weaker (so slower) than Vegeta Saiyan Saga.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_uGs4u3Hs_aY/SqaVV-SxTEI/AAAAAAAAAgk/GFVwLzj4Goo/s1600/V-Jumpdaizen7.jpg
So if is accept that the KI beam of Piccolo was Relativistic, this feat can actually prove that maybe Vegeta in the Saiyan Saga was already LS?
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As a perso well versed on DBZ and one that respects the need for feats and information, I'm asking you to be a bit reasonable and use some common sense. It's made pretty clear that transformations do increase speed BUT... I am with you on one thing. We don't know how much and we can't accept the multiplier for it unless shown otherwise.SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 said:
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I admittedly don't currently have any idea what Goku's base speed would have been during the Namek Saga, but I do feel as though I can help with the SSJ speed multiplier debate. You see as far as I understand the SSJ multipliers increase maximum ki outputs, and character stats are almost directly determined by one's ki output. Therefore the x50 SSJ multiplier should apply to all stats, unless the character has some other trait or active effect inhibiting them.
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