Regarding Base Goku's speed during Namek saga...

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

Piccolo's beams are relativistic+ to light speed based on what exactly.

"then he crassed half of namek in less than 1sec"

Where did ya get the timeframe from...

 

[CaptainFalcon64]

@CaptainFalcon64: Where's the proof that it increases a person's speed by 50X. It has to have feats to prove this other wise it wouldn't be applicable since this wasn't a multiplier which was specifically stated to increase speed.
If this was applicable then a lot of other multipliers from other franchises would be applicable as well abut we don't consider them as such so we don't consider this as being applicable either.

Now I'm getting tired of this subject. The multiplier doesn't effect speed. It and all other multipliers unless they are specifically stated to are not accepted as being able to increase speed as much as they increase power and that's not changing any time soon.

So besides that if you think that goku should be at a a different speed level because of feats or calcs which we may have overlooked then please stated them.

Never said it increases times 50x, I said it affects speed, it would make no sense for Goku not to blitz Frieza if it weren't the case, different multipliers affect in different ways (unless they are specific), Dark can boost his magical power (along wth his stats) when he turns into his Majin Dark Schneider form , Ichigo can boost his speed with Bankai, SSJ Trunks can boost his power when he ascends to USSJ.

Those one's are specific, if it didn't inscrease speed then why was Goku able to keep up with Beerus despite loosing the SSG transformation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOLKt3UHJ0o , we can clearly see Goku's attack being dodge like nothing by Beerus yet suddendly he get's a massive speed boost.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xoQGPZa6W8. and starts landing hit's on Beerus

Frieza moved faster than Goku can percieved despite Goku being able to keep up before yet still got hit. Like you stated Kaio-Ken multiplied all stats, then Goku's speed should also be 20 times greater than before when he uses Kaio-ken 20x then why did he resort to this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d22e7SgJeM instead of fighting Freiza head on?. We can also see here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIBOI8uOw-E that as a SSJ Goku was smacking Final Form Frieza around dispite Goku getting Blitz before he was a SSJ.

Just because it's implied that his power goes up doesn't mean that his speed doesn't increase look at this scan

Cui stated than he and Vegeta used to be evenly match yet, http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/13/139933/3516379-cui+6.jpg Vegeta outpaces him, Zenkai boost implies that a Saiyan increases their POWER not their speed, yet a few Zenkai boost makes Vegeta faster than Cui by a large marging, if a mere Zenkai can do that then why can't SSJ transfromation do it?.

 

[Aimenaltair]

Piccolo's beams are relativistic+ to light speed based on what exactly.
"then he crassed half of namek in less than 1sec"

Where did ya get the timeframe from...

yes they did a timeframe n narutp forums and came with mach 1500 beam, but they calculated the distance with pixel scale and totally overlooked the interview of toriyma, where he said it's the same distance as in the real world, so using the timeframe 8 seconds i believe we'll get mach 138483 beam which nappa reacted to, and goku was casualy dodging nappa's punches, in the saiyan saga.

 

[Oblivion00]

Funny how this is causing more debate than Cell being a Solar System buster at the moment.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

the naruto forum thing was based on 17 second time, while in kai we clearly see it only takes 4 seconds or less for the beam to get to the moon AND for the light to come back to us, hence using this info, the speed of piccolo's beam is relativistic+/ relativistic

 

[Aimenaltair]

the naruto forum thing was based on 17 second time, while in kai we clearly see it only takes 4 seconds or less for the beam to get to the moon AND for the light to come back to us, hence using this info, the speed of piccolo's beam is relativistic+/ relativistic

no someone later gave him a proper timeframe in the comments which was 8seconds iirc.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

how was it 8 seconds, it was around 4 seconds in the video, look at the vid

skip to 7:35

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

@CaptainFalcon64: Bro Ichigo boosts his speed 5-10 times while in bankai. Well that isn't accepted here. Just saying this should be enough for you to know where I'm coming from.

Feats are still needed bro. If the Kaioken multiplier is the only thing that holds it in place then it'll be discarded in favor in it being simply inconsistent with it's showings.

Feats are required to upgrade a character's speed besides that there isn't anything else I'm gonna say. Multipliers aren't accepted as being able to increase speed. And that ain't changing. I already tried to boost the Bleach characters speed using Ichigo's bankai multiplier and it didn't get accepted. Not Ichigo's being rated at the same speed from SS arc to regaining his powers.

@The Living Tribunal1: Abuse of cinematic time. That's all I'll say here. Also timeframe gained from a calc >> cinematic time.

@Aimenaltair: His timeframe is based on another calc. If it was truly only 8 seconds then he would've changed his calc...

 

[Aimenaltair]

how was it 8 seconds, it was around 4 seconds in the video, look at the vid
skip to 7:35

yeah but they were using the manga not the kai version, so mach 260,000 nappa indeed.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

so are you suggesting that the beam really only went at mhs speeds?

that wud take at LEAST 126 seconds for all of it to happen

so thinking that piccolo is standing there idly that long while gohan is tearing up everythign FOR 2 MINUTES is more reasonable than the 'abuse' of cinematic timing???

in the manga, it only takes one panel, and panel in fight/ action scenes as such dont happen between absurdly long times like 2 minutes

 

[Aimenaltair]

so are you suggesting that the beam really only went at mhs speeds?
that wud take at LEAST 126 seconds for all of it to happen

so thinking that piccolo is standing there idly that long while gohan is tearing up everythign FOR 2 MINUTES is more reasonable than the 'abuse' of cinematic timing???

in the manga, it only takes one panel, and panel in fight/ action scenes as such dont happen between absurdly long times like 2 minutes

no i mean mach 260000

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

how was it 8 seconds, it was around 4 seconds in the video, look at the vidskip to 7:35

yeah but they were using the manga not the kai version, so mach 260,000 nappa indeed.

where does it state in the manga that it was 8 seconds?

ok even if it was indeed 8 seconds, thats still relativistic

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

Distance from the moon to earth = 384,400 km.

Timeframe = 17.84 seconds. I'll say it again here. That (Both the 4 seconds and 8 seconds) is what most calculators call abuse of cinematic time. That's all I'll say here. Also timeframe gained from a calc >> cinematic time.

So speed = Distance/Time = 21547.085 km/s or around 7% speed of light or mach 63373.78.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

so are you suggesting that the beam really only went at mhs speeds?
that wud take at LEAST 126 seconds for all of it to happen

so thinking that piccolo is standing there idly that long while gohan is tearing up everythign FOR 2 MINUTES is more reasonable than the 'abuse' of cinematic timing???

in the manga, it only takes one panel, and panel in fight/ action scenes as such dont happen between absurdly long times like 2 minutes

no i mean mach 260000

mach 260K is still in the relativistic range, so thats close as a whole

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Distance from the moon to earth = 384,400 km.
Timeframe = 17.84 seconds. I'll say it again here. That (Both the 4 seconds and 8 seconds) is what most calculators call abuse of cinematic time. That's all I'll say here. Also timeframe gained from a calc >> cinematic time.

So speed = Distance/Time = 21547.085 km/s or around 7% speed of light or mach 63373.78.

how is the time frame 17 seconds? where are you getting that from?

 

[FanofRPGs]

Okay here is one of the most famous Dragon Ball feats

http://comic.dragonballcn.com/list/.../0.jp_Kanzenban/DRAGONBALLvol21/112-Q0W9z.jpg

Here is why

The Death Beams are light speed

evidence 1

-The Z Fighters could not even concieve the death Beams

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/14/149746/3899665-1979781074-37440.jpg

-They use chi sensory to see

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/14/146951/3928987-3812907158-pdrag.jpg

And their chi sensory can sense ships that go at FTL speeds

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-...-I/AAAAAAAAYrI/ljFd5Sg9TpY/w847-h709-no/1.jpg

Yet like as shown they could barely sense the death beams

evidence 2

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/14/149746/3899665-1979781074-37440.jpg

Piccolo calls the blast a flash of light

evidence 3

The legend of Manga guide calls it a beam of light emitted from Freeza's finger

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-...AAOh8/cthVaKz7mfU/w960-h638-no/2015-06-19.jpg

Usually these beams are not called "light"

evidence 4*

Author's intent: Akira Toriyama is simple, I doubt he knows what "sub-relativistic" or "relativistic" speeds are. He just knows the speed of light exists. When he wrote the story it was very obvious they were meant to be ludicrously fast compared to the already massively hypersonic+ to sub-relativistic characters. He was trying to make Goku look so fast and strong swatting them away.

• This one uses authors intent and it might not be used

The speed of light is 670,616,629 miles per hour.

Freeza was probably 15 feet from Goku. So that means it took 15.25 nanoseconds for the beams to get their.

Goku reacted to ~3 feet of space.

3 feet/15.25 nanoseconds = 134,128,167 miles per hour (relativistic)

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

@The Living Tribunal1: Like I said before Timeframe from a calc >> Cinematic Time and it's from this

 

[Aimenaltair]

Distance from the moon to earth = 384,400 km.
Timeframe = 17.84 seconds. I'll say it again here. That (Both the 4 seconds and 8 seconds) is what most calculators call abuse of cinematic time. That's all I'll say here. Also timeframe gained from a calc >> cinematic time.

So speed = Distance/Time = 21547.085 km/s or around 7% speed of light or mach 63373.78.

this timeframe is wrong and someone on the comments gave the 8 seconds, then again the later is wrong because dbz kai is the best one to rely on when it comes to time events, which is 4secs, so in a whole the beam was mach 260k.

 

[Oblivion00]

Distance from the moon to earth = 384,400 km.

Timeframe = 17.84 seconds. I'll say it again here. That (Both the 4 seconds and 8 seconds) is what most calculators call abuse of cinematic time. That's all I'll say here. Also timeframe gained from a calc >> cinematic time.

So speed = Distance/Time = 21547.085 km/s or around 7% speed of light or mach 63373.78.

So Piccolo's beam using that timeframe would be Sub Relativistic+

 

[Aimenaltair]

@The Living Tribunal1: Like I said before Timeframe from a calc >> Cinematic Time and it's from this

like i said kai proves you wrong.

 

[FanofRPGs]

Distance from the moon to earth = 384,400 km.

Timeframe = 17.84 seconds. I'll say it again here. That (Both the 4 seconds and 8 seconds) is what most calculators call abuse of cinematic time. That's all I'll say here. Also timeframe gained from a calc >> cinematic time.

So speed = Distance/Time = 21547.085 km/s or around 7% speed of light or mach 63373.78.

So Piccolo's beam using that timeframe would be Sub Relativistic+

Goku got 10x faster after training under 100x gravity

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/812k6eQW29L.jpg

So he would be at least mach 633,737.8 (relativistic+)

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

@Aimenaltair: No it doesn't Timeframe gained from a calc >> cinematic time (which is the timeframe from DBZ Kai). If the 8 seconds was actually accurate then the person who made the calc would've changed it already.

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

@Aimenaltair: No one ever uses cinematic time if there's a calc which you can get the timeframe from. There's something which most calculators and us call abuse of cinematic time which can always happen which is why timeframes from calcs are more acceptable and is used more.

@FanofRPGs: I'll look into that as well as your calculations...

 

[CaptainFalcon64]

@CaptainFalcon64: Bro Ichigo boosts his speed 5-10 times while in bankai. Well that isn't accepted here. Just saying this should be enough for you to know where I'm coming from.
Feats are still needed bro. If the Kaioken multiplier is the only thing that holds it in place then it'll be discarded in favor in it being simply inconsistent with it's showings.

Feats are required to upgrade a character's speed besides that there isn't anything else I'm gonna say. Multipliers aren't accepted as being able to increase speed. And that ain't changing. I already tried to boost the Bleach characters speed using Ichigo's bankai multiplier and it didn't get accepted. Not Ichigo's being rated at the same speed from SS arc to regaining his powers.

@The Living Tribunal1: Abuse of cinematic time. That's all I'll say here. Also timeframe gained from a calc >> cinematic time.

@Aimenaltair: His timeframe is based on another calc. If it was truly only 8 seconds then he would've changed his calc...

Well that's understandable then, seems like I don't have anything that would count as proof.

 

[Antvasima]

I don't really have an opinion regarding this, but just wanted to mention that since I have been told that DBZ Kai is referenced in DB Super, this seems to be the new official continuity, so we should probably prioritise feats shown within this series.

 

[Aimenaltair]

I don't really have an opinion regarding this, but just wanted to mention that since I have been told that DBZ Kai is referenced in DB Super, this seems to be the new official continuity, so we should probably prioritise feats shown within this series.

^this

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

@Antvasima: So far what we have is. Saiyan Saga Characters being Sub-Relativistic+ due to reacting to Piccolo's laser.

Apparently the person who made this calc used 9,318.7 kilometers as the distance from the earth to the moon but it was later confirmed by Akira Toriyama that the distance between earth and moon in DBU is the same as the distance between our earth and moon.

I did a small calc here for that.

Distance from the moon to earth = 384,400 km.
Timeframe = 17.84 seconds. I'll say it again here. That (Both the 4 seconds and 8 seconds) is what most calculators call abuse of cinematic time. That's all I'll say here. Also timeframe gained from a calc >> cinematic time.

So speed = Distance/Time = 21547.085 km/s or around 7% speed of light or mach 63373.78.

The timeframe is from this. Since timeframes from calcs are more accepted than timeframes based on cinematic time I used the timeframe from the calc instead of the cinematic time. No calculator would use Cinematic time if they already had a timeframe from another calc since there's always a high possibility of abuse of cinematic time happening all the time.

And then there's the statement that Goku apparently got 10 times faster and stronger after training in 100X gravity. Which FanofRPGs is talking about.

That's all the progress for now...

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

Well no need to thank me. I'll handle everything on this end. For the cell thing I'll join in in a while.

 

[Jeune_fou]

Anyway it's obvious SSJ = all stats X 50.

SSJ 2 = all stats X 100

and SSJ 3 = all stats X 400.

Because if there was no speed gain, they would always be blitzed by more powerful opponents.

Also, about the piccolo beam, in dbkai it took indeed around 4 or 5 second for it to reach the moon. Making piccolo's beam at relativistic speed (moon - earth = 385 000 km/5 = 77 000 km/s).

But as some persons said it earlier, Nappa managed to dodge Piccolo's beam. Nappa is at least at relativistic speed as well. But saiyan Saga Goku and Vegeta are far faster than Nappa (easily realtivistic +). Then with Burter, we clearly have a ftl warrior (since he can blitz Vegeta who was already more powerful at that moment than on earth). And we know Ginue is even faster than Burter because he was able to touch Goku (unlike Burter who never managed to actually hit Goku) etc ...

During the fight against Frieza, Vegeta, Piccolo, Goku and Frieza himself are all ftl +. Especially if you consider 3rd form Frieza managed to blitz Piccolo (without weights) who was slightly stronger than his 2nd form. And in his final form (and he used a small % of his full power, Piccolo said his 3rd form was "innofensive" compared to his final form).

However considering the SSJ (speed multiplied by 50) and Frieza 100%. It is clear to me Frieza and Goku were mftl (that make sense because remember what I said: Burter being ftl and ginue being faster than him. But Frieza is like 1000 time stronger and fatser than Ginue in his final form at 100%).

Ah one last thing. There's no proof at all SSJ doesn't increase speed. In fact that's the contrary because Goku SSJ was a lot faster than Goku kaioken 20 (since he was slightly stronger and faster than 100% frieza while Goku kaioken 20 had the exact same level than 50% Frieza).

 

[Antvasima]

@SDZ All right.

 

[Oblivion00]

Funny how Saiyan Saga characters got upgraded from Massively Hypersonic+ to Sub Relativistic+ just because Toriyama confirmed that Dragon Ball's Earth to the moon distance is the same as our own.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Funny how Saiyan Saga characters got upgraded from Massively Hypersonic+ to Sub Relativistic+ just because Toriyama confirmed that Dragon Ball's Earth to the moon distance is the same as our own.

wait, they're getting upgraded to sub relativistic? awesome

 

[Aimenaltair]

Funny how Saiyan Saga characters got upgraded from Massively Hypersonic+ to Sub Relativistic+ just because Toriyama confirmed that Dragon Ball's Earth to the moon distance is the same as our own.

IKR.

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

@Jeune fou:

1) I never sated that the SSJ multipliers didn't increase speed. I said that they were unknowns as they were neight stated nor shown to be a 50X upgrade in speed. If there were shown to be as such then there would be feats at that level.

2) Feats are needed. If the Kaioken multiplier is the only thing that holds it in place then it'll be discarded in favor in it being simply inconsistent with it's showings.

Feats are required to upgrade a character's speed besides that there isn't anything else I'm gonna say. Multipliers aren't accepted as being able to increase speed. And that ain't changing.

3) I'm not gonna continue arguing regarding and I'd suggest you drop this subject as it won't go anywhere. For a massive upgrade such as a 50X upgreade in speed you need feats to support it and not some multiplier which is barely accepted. If ya want the speed stats to change then get the feats for it.

@Oblivion00: The change hasn't been applied yet so you shouldn't celebrate just yet. But yes.

 

[FanofRPGs]

I like this most since I was planning to do a SSJ Goku vs Super Sonic thread but I thought Goku would get blitzed, hopefully this will make SSJ Goku FTL/FTL+ and then it might be a match

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

SSJ Goku being FTL/FTL+ after this well that I doubt. But that depends on what you provide so I'll hear ya out.

Do tell what would put him at that level of speed and I don't wanna have to give another lecture about why multipliers are not accepted for speed upgrades so please don't say the SSJ multipliers...

 

[Oblivion00]

Oh I know the change hasn't been applied. Just surprised that they were that fast in the Saiyan saga due to recent confirmations on the distance from Piccolo's moon busting attack.

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

@Oblivion00: Heh alright I see. And this thread just might make some characters FTL so I'm quite surprised myself...

 

[Jeune_fou]

@Jeune fou:
1) I never sated that the SSJ multipliers didn't increase speed. I said that they were unknowns as they were neight stated nor shown to be a 50X upgrade in speed. If there were shown to be as such then there would be feats at that level.

2) Feats are needed. If the Kaioken multiplier is the only thing that holds it in place then it'll be discarded in favor in it being simply inconsistent with it's showings.

Feats are required to upgrade a character's speed besides that there isn't anything else I'm gonna say. Multipliers aren't accepted as being able to increase speed. And that ain't changing.

3) I'm not gonna continue arguing regarding and I'd suggest you drop this subject as it won't go anywhere. For a massive upgrade such as a 50X upgreade in speed you need feats to support it and not some multiplier which is barely accepted. If ya want the speed stats to change then get the feats for it.

@Oblivion00: The change hasn't been applied yet so you shouldn't celebrate just yet. But yes.

That's true, we need feats. Alright. So let's say it (SSJ) increase speed by even "only" 40 then (Goku kaiolen 20 had the same speed and power than 50% Frieza). Then even like that, it's more than enough to drastically increase Goku's speed don't you think? Especially since it has been confirmed earth-moon in our world = earth-moon in dbz (making Piccolo's beam at realtivistic speed and changing many things because the whole base of dragon ball z will most likely be upgraded).