Red (Manga) vs Ash

[The_Calaca]

He isn't the same so...

Red vs Ash Ketchum

6-C versions or Red would stomp (as it should be).

Ash's team: Pikachu, Charizard, Greninja, Sceptile, Heracross and Infernape.

Red's team: Saur, Poli, Pika, Aero, Gyara and Snor.

Typical Pokemon battle. 1v1.

 

[Huesito88]

That's only because of my boi Mewtwo.

 

[The_Calaca]

Red has also a High 6-C version so it's not only because your boi.

 

[Huesito88]

Baseline High 6-C lol so?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Isn't Ash listed as 'At least' 6-C? While I lack experience with the rules on the wiki I would assume that means Ash could be argued to be 6-B or higher as a result of that key. Meaning that it can, in-fact, be argued that the only key that outright would curbstomp Ash is with Mewtwo.

Anyways, I'm not really knowledgeable about Adventures but I think Ash would win due to his pokemon generally (seemingly) being faster, all of them having incredibly high AP, all of them having good feats (that place them as being capable of fighting or handling legendaries) and that Red's team seems to be uh...limited? I mean he has three pokemon weak against electric-types (which happens to be Ash's strongest pokemon or one of his strongest), a venusaur (which would presumably struggle against Charizard and Infernape, both are extremely powerful fire types) which leaves a Pikachu and Snorlax.

So, unless Red's pokemon have some ridiculous feats that I am unaware of...I would have to vote for Ash with the logic that Ash's team generally seems to have a large type advantage and that he could, arguably, be stronger overall with his team.

I'm interested in whether or not there are some Red feats that could debunk my vote. I would change it if I can be convinced.

 

[The_Calaca]

The at least doesn't mean anything. It's the bare minimum for a character.

Take for example Acnologia in Human Form. He's at least High 6-C with a 200+GT AP but he's still 5x weaker than the baseline 6-B. Not to mention between 6-C and 6-B there's High 6-C.

Just mentioning Saur has fought with Green's Charizard before. I can't remember how powerful was but it's definitely something. Poli has fought against a powerful Electabuzz the same moment he evolved.

I need to reread the manga again but IIRC Red has faced legendaries aswell. I think he scales above Blue who fought with the Bird Trio.

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

Black and Blake only solo Red and Ash with Reshiram and Genesect lol

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

Red Mid-High Diff

If Ash launches a Charizard, he can do the same thing he did with Blue

The only Pokemon capable of impaling Ash with Venusaur is Greninja (because of megas and etc.), also Snor is a Pokémon that has been able to be more of a tanker and may well be one, the strategies of Red in general will be superior than that of Ash (which tends to continue with the error of using the Pokémon that has a disadvantage against the opponent), also in general, Red has at least won a league and is not a character with inconsistent intelligence and strategies as Pikachu vs Gengar of Agatha

And also, one more note, that would be a stomp if Red had his Espeon (Well, he wouldn't be able to defeat Greninja due to Type Dark)

 

[The_Calaca]

Ash: 1 (CryoTheMayo)

Red: 1 (Enryu)

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

First of all, I'm sorry for my hatred of Ash

 

[Soste_To_Perivalon]

My vote is going to have to go for Red. I'm not sure if the scaling is the same but he actually defeated the elite four and champions, and has constantly trained his mons while ash keeps replacing them. So going with the guy that beat a 2 magmars with a sandslash he just caught.

 

[The_Calaca]

2 for Red then.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

My vote is going to have to go for Red. I'm not sure if the scaling is the same but he actually defeated the elite four and champions, and has constantly trained his mons while ash keeps replacing them. So going with the guy that beat a 2 magmars with a sandslash he just caught.

Ash defeated frontier brains, quantity>>quality and red also released his fair share of pokemon, so stopping acting like red never did it. Not impressive, one dig attack or ground-based move can beat any magmar.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

Also, ash already beat red in this thread right here . Which perfectly explains why ash would beat Mr.Overrated.

 

[SomebodyData]

Wrong Red

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

It doesn't matter which red, they both get beaten by ash. His team has to much fire-power and versatile move-set for Red to handle.

 

[The_Calaca]

Based on what?

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

Not on my computer rn, will comment later.

 

[SomebodyData]

Ash's versatility is extremely countered by Red's intelligence.

And what do you mean superior firepower?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Could I have examples of Red's intelligence feats? I want to contrast them with Ash's best plays.

 

[Soste_To_Perivalon]

Ash defeated frontier brains, quantity>>quality and red also released his fair share of pokemon, so stopping acting like red never did it. Not impressive, one dig attack or ground-based move can beat any magmar.

When Ash went against the frontier brains the hardest frontier brain he went against was probably Brandon. And Brandon solo'd ash with one regi twice (Once he was possessed). And in the last battle Brandon only used one regi and Ash only won with a bunch of pis. Whereas in adventures, Emerald destroyed all the frontier brains and went against all three regis and still won. Red is implied to be the strongest dex holder (The fighter) with highest level pokemon.

As it goes, Ash has lost to every elite four/Champion he has gone against. Red hasn't.

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

Red is implied to be the strongest dex holder (The fighter) with highest level pokemon.

In fact Black and Blake are currently the strongest pokedex holders since Black controls a Reshiram and Blake has as one of his primary Pokémon's a Genesect

 

[Mickey1940]

Pikachu, Greninja, Charizard, and Sceptile are Mega/Pseudo-Legendary level

Voting Ash, though it might be tough for him

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

Pikachu, Greninja, Charizard, and Sceptile are Mega/Pseudo-Legendary level
Voting Ash, though it might be tough for him

Uhhhh, no, the Ash's Pokémon fights against Legendaries are outliers and PIS (Volt Tackle in Regice and defeat it is one of the biggest outliers involving Ash's Pikachu next to him is defeating a Lusamine 5-B with a Z-Move), does not change the fact that if Ash's Pokémon was really 6-B+, only his Pikachu would have defeated all Alain's Pokémon's that are High 6-C, but that's not what happened.

 

[SomebodyData]

Mega/Psuedo legendary level for Ash? Most of Red's pokemon have defeated legendaries already tho. @Mickey

@Enryu I think he means in term of the original 3 generations.

@Cryo Red has done stuff like create pseudo-thunderstorms by strategically swamping out Poliwrath and Pikachu, and actually tricking Blue's Charizard to use his fire moves to cause Poli's water to evaporate and combining that with Pikachu's electricity, then using Venasaur's vines as a sort of thunder rod to defeat Charizard mid-battle.

Basically he can make his Venasaur beat Charizard with thunder, and this was back in only the third volume of the manga.

When it comes to skill, Red clearly has Ash beat.

 

[Mickey1940]

oh ok. Sorry, I never read the manga

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Alright, certainly impressive. I'm going to list a few intelligence feats on Ash's part to show that he isn't completely outdone in this department.

Adapts to and exploits a split-second flaw in an attack

https://gfycat.com/SpanishShrillChanticleer

Tricks a trainer at the Ever Grande Conference into ruining her own advantage

https://gfycat.com/InfamousUnkemptImperialeagle

Turns an opponent's strength into its downfall

https://gfycat.com/FarflungSoftGonolek

Battles 1v2 with a blind Pikachu

https://gfycat.com/UnitedThriftyHermitcrab

Fries the battlefield with an underground Flare Blitz, removing toxic spikes

https://gfycat.com/FlawedWellmadeHeterodontosaurus

Probably one of his most well-known tricks is the Counter-Shield, which is used by discharging elemental energy (fire, electricity, etc) to create a shield.

https://gfycat.com/GregariousTenseJenny

While I don't believe any of these are as intricate as that strategy by Red, I do think that listing these feats of strategy and intelligence makes the match-up closer.

 

[Soste_To_Perivalon]

Here's a respect thread for anyone less familiar with Red:

https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthr...d_pokemon_adventures/?st=jp2jfzxc&sh=5db381b6

 

[ABoogieYesSir]

Oh

 

[The_Calaca]

Bullet dodged.

 

[Eminiteable]

Red stomps this, his pokemon are consistently shown fighting against the E4. His strategies are a lot more creative and deadly to ash, and lastly the legendaries his pokemon have fought against are high tiers.