Real Life Big Animals CRT

[H3110l12345I20]

Real animals don’t have ‘weak points’. Those points are the same as the rest of their body, flesh and meat. Their skin is 10-B (I would actually argue 10-C since bugs can destroy flesh, it’s like how a tanks overall destruction is much higher than the actual durablity of the metal), their organs are 10-B, and the meat is also 10-B it just takes higher energy to destroy a lot of it.

Only animals that actually have armored skin, like elephants and armadillos, have flesh with higher durability than normal. If you punched a lion or bear you would brush it, you would hurt it, you could even kill it if it didn’t fight back.

Our sites standard of durability doesn’t match reality at all. All creatures can be slain by 10-B amounts of damage, real life just often has many reasons why that 10-B damage fails (angles, amount of material destroyed at once, physics with slashing and bludgeoning attacks making it deal less damage than it could). Like most predators have flesh that doesn’t drag with slashes (like prey animals do), thus slashes cause less damage because the flesh doesn’t get dragged and shredded with the attack. The 9-C attack still cuts through practically all animals like wet paper, it just doesn’t cause massive damage. Currently with how we rate animals blue whales should be invincible, yet many animals can tear apart their flesh (including 10-Cs) and orcas straight up kill and eat them (with the only thing stopping them being the whale’s ap, not durability).

Edit: mixed up 10 and 11-C, I meant below average human (10-C)

? I don't get you when you say that IRL animals have no "weak points." Evolution is about sacrifices to get more successful in reproducing to spread your genes. Millions of years of evolution have made it so stuff like crocs effectively sacrificing armor for sight for their eyes than 100% body armor. Or what about the fact that a Komodo Dragon's armor doesn't extend to literally every inch of it's body so it could use it's senses & mouth to eat? & how do you explain that humans, scientifically considered as animals, have soft spots as pressure points? It's nigh impossible for an animal to have no weak points by your logic since animals need complex organs to survive. Like you don't think the neck is a weak point for bears?

We judge tiers in IRL by physical blows, realism & physical strength. That's where the durability comes from. Special cases like the Honey Badger have 10-A durability for their skin.

Durability's official page has an official section that states surface area (including cuts) are a problem for scaling durability, stuff like knives & spears can hurt 9-B animals as result of pressure from surface area. Even if we did agree I don't think the staff would accept your reasoning since it would have site-wide implications & would be against the site's natural "use IRL as a ruler, not as a rule". As an example, watch this clip.

Like a bear getting beaten up by multiple people or one while getting tied up is a result of eventual death from continuous prolonged blunt force trauma by it's flesh, not from a good feat of sheer strength. Like wrestling a bear to the ground is a much better feat than killing the bear by kicking it over a couple of hours.

 

[R4ndomPlayer315]

Real animals don’t have ‘weak points’. Those points are the same as the rest of their body, flesh and meat.

I mean that these animals have vital parts of the body that would be susceptible to death such as their neck. Because if that spear pierces the mammoth’s neck, then yeah, it’ll die of blood loss

If you punched a lion or bear you would brush it, you would hurt it, you could even kill it if it didn’t fight back.

I disagree, a human punch would just piss off a lion or bear, would barely feel the punch.

 

[Keeweed]

For 1) The fact that a human can even beat it to death at all is the problem. If a real creature truly had this site’s definition of 9-B durability it would be invincible to humans and they would break their hands trying to kill it (since even 9-C steel is invincible to 80% of all humans). Yet that doesn’t happen with practically any animals (except for extremely bulky, armored, ones).

A crocodile’s flesh isn’t higher than any other creature’s. That’s what I’m referring to with weak points, it’s all the same material and all equally durable. It’s armor is completely unrelated, is higher, and does have weak points. But the flesh and meat that make up 99% of its body is the same flesh and meat that make up all animals. And that flesh and meat can be destroyed by 10-C damage, with it usually only being 10-B for the same reason demolishing a tank is 8-C despite it’s armor being breakable by 9-C damage.

It won’t take you hours to kill the large majority of creatures, at worse it would take a couple of minutes and that has to do with bulk not the durability of their skin and flesh. The material that makes up animals have real values for destruction and those values can be reached by 10-Cs.

Pressure points are not a weak point of durability, they are general weakness of the nervous systems of creatures. Not what I’m referring to here. I’m referring to creatures’ overall bodied being made out of materials that are never even 9-C or above (with only bones and armor getting higher) and instead get their survivability from hundreds of other different facts (like range, bulk, the flexibility of their skin, the angles they get hit, and a crap ton of other variables (like a human got hit dead on by a train once, hundreds of different things aligned to have that train do practically no damage, but that person was a regular guy that could easily be punched to death by other people).

Destroying the neck also misses the point in 2 ways. First, you are specifically damaging the creature to destroy their neck. It’s the same material as the rest of their body, if you can destroy the neck you could break any non bone part of their body, 2) their neck is a weaknesses due to them needing it to breath not because it’s particularly weak or anything.

 

[R4ndomPlayer315]

A crocodile’s flesh isn’t higher than any other creature’s. That’s what I’m referring to with weak points, it’s all the same material and all equally durable. It’s armor is completely unrelated, is higher, and does have weak points. But the flesh and meat that make up 99% of its body is the same flesh and meat that make up all animals. And that flesh and meat can be destroyed by 10-C damage, with it usually only being 10-B for the same reason demolishing a tank is 8-C despite it’s armor being breakable by 9-C damage.

There are certain muscles in an animal that are weaker than others like how the stapedius is weaker than the biceps.

Pressure points are not a weak point of durability, they are general weakness of the nervous systems of creatures. Not what I’m referring to here. I’m referring to creatures’ overall bodied being made out of materials that are never even 9-C or above (with only bones and armor getting higher) and instead get their survivability from hundreds of other different facts (like range, bulk, the flexibility of their skin, the angles they get hit, and a crap ton of other variables (like a human got hit dead on by a train once, hundreds of different things aligned to have that train do practically no damage, but that person was a regular guy that could easily be punched to death by other people).

Again, there are certain vital parts of an animal that are susceptible to fatal blood loss, like a spear than can cut off a vital artery in a mammoth's neck which would cause it to bleed to death. Also how are pressure points not weak points? And again, like I just said above, a lion would just be pissed off by a punch, barely feeling it at all.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

For 1) The fact that a human can even beat it to death at all is the problem. If a real creature truly had this site’s definition of 9-B durability it would be invincible to humans and they would break their hands trying to kill it (since even 9-C steel is invincible to 80% of all humans). Yet that doesn’t happen with practically any animals (except for extremely bulky, armored, ones).

A crocodile’s flesh isn’t higher than any other creature’s. That’s what I’m referring to with weak points, it’s all the same material and all equally durable. It’s armor is completely unrelated, is higher, and does have weak points. But the flesh and meat that make up 99% of its body is the same flesh and meat that make up all animals. And that flesh and meat can be destroyed by 10-C damage, with it usually only being 10-B for the same reason demolishing a tank is 8-C despite it’s armor being breakable by 9-C damage.

It won’t take you hours to kill the large majority of creatures, at worse it would take a couple of minutes and that has to do with bulk not the durability of their skin and flesh. The material that makes up animals have real values for destruction and those values can be reached by 10-Cs.

Pressure points are not a weak point of durability, they are general weakness of the nervous systems of creatures. Not what I’m referring to here. I’m referring to creatures’ overall bodied being made out of materials that are never even 9-C or above (with only bones and armor getting higher) and instead get their survivability from hundreds of other different facts (like range, bulk, the flexibility of their skin, the angles they get hit, and a crap ton of other variables (like a human got hit dead on by a train once, hundreds of different things aligned to have that train do practically no damage, but that person was a regular guy that could easily be punched to death by other people).

Destroying the neck also misses the point in 2 ways. First, you are specifically damaging the creature to destroy their neck. It’s the same material as the rest of their body, if you can destroy the neck you could break any non bone part of their body, 2) their neck is a weaknesses due to them needing it to breath not because it’s particularly weak or anything.

So let me get this straight, you're tellin me that all "9-B" animals are 10-B since they can get beaten up in minutes if they stand still & that flesh is weaker than the rest of their body?

I think by that reasoning, you could argue that Mike Tyson in his prime is 10-B if he didn't fight back & use his more athletic muscles. I think we're forgetting that withstanding physical strength also factors in durability.

Animals far stronger than humans can withstand blows that can one-shot humans.

Sure if you restrain IRL animals with class 5 LS, you could kill them by attacking their flesh. But the animals have evolved to do things way stronger than normal people. There's a chance that you may not be able to do a pull up on your first try. Name a normal person that can drag an animal weighing over a tonne, & this is real life, we can scale from lifting strength.

If we focus on the flesh of the animal, the animals you suggest should be 10-B have stronger bones than normal people. The animals adapted to withstand the amount of strength needed to sustain a being able to run literally faster than Usain Bolt & normal people. Even then if we ignore the bones, an animal's flesh can be stronger pound-by-pound. Leopards can do this at their weight for example.

 

[Keeweed]

Mike Tyson easily can be killed by any other person, absolutely (except someone who 10-C for like medical reasons, but let a child wail on him and he would eventually die and he absolutely would get injured which is the main point). I’ve heard plenty of stories of extremely strong boxers and wrestler dying because some random Joe attacked them. A fighter specifically know for being tanky once died from being punched in the gut once by a random smuck (his gut is made him have a reputation for being tanky).

I’m not referring to ap, I’m referring to durability. You would fail against a fighter because they would beat the crap out of you, but if they just stood still you could easily beat them to death like any other man.

When you guys mention blood loss and other stuff you are missing the point. Why are they bleeding in the first place; because something hurt them. A 10-C can make you bleed, a 10-C can even kill you and have killed physically humans thousands of times before.

Edit: Their bones don’t matter, for the same reason human’s aren’t rated 9-C for their bones.

 

[R4ndomPlayer315]

I’m not referring to ap, I’m referring to durability.

AP and durability go and hand in hand going by Newton’s Third Law which states that “any contact force done by one entity on another will be met with a force on the latter entity on the former that is equal in magnitude, but opposite in direction.” and according to this, a tiger can generate 10000 lbf and a lion can go toe to toe with it. This is is consistent because a lion can survive high-caliber rifles.

 

[Keeweed]

If you shot a gun it would be destroyed, but a gun doesn’t destroy itself while it shots. You can also really easily break a sledgehammer with another sledgehammer.

The energy of your attack dispersed across your entire arm or body, it doesn’t properly hit you. If it did you would hurt your own hand every time you punched.

 

[R4ndomPlayer315]

If you shot a gun it would be destroyed, but a gun doesn’t destroy itself while it shots. You can also really easily break a sledgehammer with another sledgehammer.

The energy of your attack dispersed across your entire arm or body, it doesn’t properly hit you. If it did you would hurt your own hand every time you punched.

I mean the bullets itself, not the gun

 

[R4ndomPlayer315]

What I mean is, an animal that would exert this amount of force would have to shrugg off the impact against a surface otherwise it would shatter its durability.

 

[Keeweed]

But the bullet is shot out of the gun. The force that expelled the bullet happened within the chamber, yet the gun doesn’t break, but the projectile can still demolish a gun. And more importantly, since bullets are piercing damage so the example is wrapped in something hard to explain, there is examples with just plain out blunt forces. Again bats and hammers can destroy other bats and hammers.

Attacking wouldn’t shatter a creature because the energy from Newton’s third law disperses. If you had to take the full yield of the back lashing force you would absolutely hurt yourself. Why do you think people break their hands when they punch something hard, they obviously don’t tank the energy of their own attacks.

You would have to he cartoonishly inferior to your own ap to die from it alone (like so far below it doesn’t even make sense to bring it up).

Edit: When I say “from it alone” I mean just punching out into open space. If you wailed away on something hard enough to have the force go back into your hand it would absolutely do massive damage to you.

 

[Keeweed]

You brought up a tiger and lion fighting, not only do tigers absolutely destroy lions, but lions never tank their hits. Tigers absolutely can tear, destroy, and rip apart a lion’s flesh. None of the parts that get hit actually survive getting hit. It just doesn’t die because the attack doesn’t have the power to effect their entire body. If the tiger hits a fatal spot the lion would die immediately.

The fatal spot isn’t a weakness, I mean the tiger hits a spot that actually is important for the lions survival and that spot would be obliterated like any other part of the body the tiger actually hits.

Like when bears and bulls fought, the cow easily pierced through and beat up the bear, it just takes hitting an actual important spot for the bear or cow to die.

 

[R4ndomPlayer315]

But the bullet is shot out of the gun. The force that expelled the bullet happened within the chamber, yet the gun doesn’t break, but the projectile can still demolish a gun. And more importantly, since bullets are piercing damage so the example is wrapped in something hard to explain, there is examples with just plain out blunt forces. Again bats and hammers can destroy other bats and hammers.

Again I meant the bullet, not the gun, that has to resist the impact against a surface when shot out of the air at supersonic speeds. Also since when would a bat be able to shatter a hammer, a hammer is superior to a bat.

Attacking wouldn’t shatter a creature because the energy from Newton’s third law disperses. If you had to take the full yield of the back lashing force you would absolutely hurt yourself. Why do you think people break their hands when they punch something hard, they obviously don’t tank the energy of their own attacks.

Again, as I said above, a lion can go toe to toe with a tiger which can exert 10000 lbf meaning it would be able to survive a similar amount of force.

 

[Keeweed]

You misunderstood my point with the hammer. I was saying a hammer can break another hammer, not that a hammer is better than a bat (though depending on the bat and hammer that could be the case).

More importantly completely shattering the entire hammer isn’t the point. I mean is that a hammer can damage another hammer of the same make and model. But the hammer doesn’t destroy or damage itself when you use it.

Again, punch open air then punch a brick wall. You will absolutely wreck your hand if you punched the wall.

Execpt the Lion doesn’t survive that force. Any part of the lion’s body that is actually hit gets destroyed or torn apart. If the tiger hits something needed for the lions survival, it dies, nothing took anything. The tiger just doesn’t have the power required to obliterate the lions entire body.

It’s the same as how 9-C damage can damage steel, but you can’t destroy a building sized chunk of steel in its entirety, immediately, with 9-C damage. You can still damage the chunk with 9-C damage though and that’s the important part.

 

[Keeweed]

A good example of what I’m talking about: what is the durability of a skyscraper? It takes 8-C to 8-A energy to demolish them in their totality, but that’s obviously not their durability. Their actual durability is 9-C to 9-B. The walls and materials that make up the building cap out at that strong and that’s all the damage you need to do to eventually destroy the building, which only survives previous attacks from bulk not durability.

Same with animals. Animals are made out of 10-C to 10-B material, with only specific creatures having specific parts of their bodies be higher (like armadillo armor). Their overall bulk for larger animals would require higher energy to damage significant parts of their bodies. But the parts of the body you do hit only require 10-B energy to actually damage. If the part you damage is needed for the animals survival, it dies. This is why so many larger, and supposedly tanky, animals can consistently die from 10-C sources of damage in real life all the time.

 

[R4ndomPlayer315]

You brought up a tiger and lion fighting, not only do tigers absolutely destroy lions, but lions never tank their hits. Tigers absolutely can tear, destroy, and rip apart a lion’s flesh. None of the parts that get hit actually survive getting hit. It just doesn’t die because the attack doesn’t have the power to effect their entire body. If the tiger hits a fatal spot the lion would die immediately.

As shown here, tigers don’t just destroy a lion with ease.

You misunderstood my point with the hammer. I was saying a hammer can break another hammer, not that a hammer is better than a bat (though depending on the bat and hammer that could be the case).

A hammer can survive its own impact against a surface as shown here and both can survive upon impacting each other.

Again, punch open air then punch a break wall. You will absolutely wreck your hand if you punched the wall.

I’ve already tested myself against a wall before and my hand is fine after exerting myself.

Execpt the Lion doesn’t survive that force. Any part of the lion’s body that is actually hit gets destroyed or torn apart. If the tiger hits something needed for the lions survival, it dies, nothing took anything. The tiger just doesn’t have the power required to obliterate the lions entire body.

Again, as I had shown in this page, they can go toe to toe with each other which contradicts your point here.

 

[Keeweed]

I highly doubt you hit an especially tough wall because I know for a fact that if punch my dresser now my hand is going to be massively hurt while I don’t hurt my own hand when I punch air. Also I know for a fact you’ve stubbed your toe before and the same principle applies there. Basic human movement can hurt as human if the force it exerts actually truly hits it.

Humans passively hold back when they know they are going to hit something hard, for obvious reasons. Your brain doesn’t want you to kill yourself like an idiot.

The lions didn’t instantly die for the same reason any other animal doesn’t instantly die from an attack. The energy of the attack isn’t high enough to destroy enough of the body to kill the creature, but the part that is hit is damaged. If it wasn’t damaged the lions and tigers won’t die to begin with. Plus I’m pretty sure those fight rings horribly managed their animals’ health. Every animal expert I’ve met says a tiger would murder a lion horribly.

Edit: I believe you are missing my point further and further somehow. To make it clear, what happens when the lion is hit by the tiger. It’s hurt, the flesh is torn up, the lion is battered. The attack does its job, and if it hits something the lion needs to live it dies. The lion doesn’t live from tanking the attack, it lives because an important part of its body wasn’t hit from the attack yet.

 

[Keeweed]

I just want to say, I need to do some school work today. I’ll be free later, then be busy again for the rest of the day. So I’ll be back here later.

 

[R4ndomPlayer315]

The lions didn’t instantly die for the same reason any other animal doesn’t instantly die from an attack. The energy of the attack isn’t high enough to destroy enough of the body to kill the creature, but the part that is hit is damaged. If it wasn’t damaged the lions and tigers won’t die to begin with. Plus I’m pretty sure those fight rings horribly managed their animals’ health. Every animal expert I’ve met says a tiger would murder a lion horribly.

Edit: I see you are missing my point further and further somehow. To make it clear, what happens when the lion is hit by the tiger. It’s hurt, the flesh is torn up, the lion is battered. The attack does its job, and if it hits something the lion needs to live it dies. The lion doesn’t live from tanking the attack, it lives because an important part of its body wasn’t hit from the attack yet.

There have been records of lions and tigers being able to trade blows with each other and from one case from 1949, at the South Perth Zoo, there has been a lion that fought against a tiger in 3 minutes and the lion killed the tiger. You're describing the lion as if it was too much of a weakling to even fight against a tiger even though records show that has not been the case.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

I’m not referring to ap, I’m referring to durability. You would fail against a fighter because they would beat the crap out of you, but if they just stood still you could easily beat them to death like any other man.

When you guys mention blood loss and other stuff you are missing the point. Why are they bleeding in the first place; because something hurt them. A 10-C can make you bleed, a 10-C can even kill you and have killed physically humans thousands of times before.

Edit: Their bones don’t matter, for the same reason human’s aren’t rated 9-C for their bones.

I know that you're refering to durability, a fighter can take way more force than a normal person since they've conditioned their body to, you're forgetting physiology matters. I think this is a case of letting your little brother win against you, when the animals you're suggesting are 10-B don't fight, they hold back. Beating up a stronger animal/person that can literally snap a person's neck isn't impressive if they hold back even if the holding back opponent can take a full charge from an animal of comparable size. I know energy disperses on impact but the size difference means that hurting the bear is only going to make it mad.

? you just said that flesh is 10-B & now you're say that something hurt them? Doesn't common sense tell us that people die of insects due to the sheer number/diseases from them? The reason why we have 10-B's borders is because of my blog.

I don't think we can have tiering system that takes in account to everything completely. Armorchompy said that it was oversimplifed IRL physics at 10-C to 9-C. That's the reason why humans & certain animals aren't rated 9-C. We use strength & bulk to determine durability.

If you shot a gun it would be destroyed, but a gun doesn’t destroy itself while it shots. You can also really easily break a sledgehammer with another sledgehammer.

The energy of your attack dispersed across your entire arm or body, it doesn’t properly hit you. If it did you would hurt your own hand every time you punched.

We do have feats of guys trading blows with each other, but you explain this thing later lol.

Again bats and hammers can destroy other bats and hammers.

Attacking wouldn’t shatter a creature because the energy from Newton’s third law disperses. If you had to take the full yield of the back lashing force you would absolutely hurt yourself. Why do you think people break their hands when they punch something hard, they obviously don’t tank the energy of their own attacks.

? In that case it would take an even more longer time to beat a restrained bear up. We have IRL profiles here as a reference point, we try to make it as accurate as we can but acknowledge our system's limits.

Execpt the Lion doesn’t survive that force. Any part of the lion’s body that is actually hit gets destroyed or torn apart. If the tiger hits something needed for the lions survival, it dies, nothing took anything. The tiger just doesn’t have the power required to obliterate the lions entire body.

It’s the same as how 9-C damage can damage steel, but you can’t destroy a building sized chunk of steel in its entirety, immediately, with 9-C damage. You can still damage the chunk with 9-C damage though and that’s the important part.

? How is surviving an attack from something that can break your neck an antifeat? If the Lion is as fragile as you think it is, the accounts wouldn't have "savage" battles recorded between them (they would instead use the instant death as a headline in more cases). The Lion getting torn apart is a result of anatomy weaknesses in much of the cases. Tigers are included here.
Edit: Quick question, did you say that the lions were weaker since they withstood something that had its energy turn into heat? Isn't withstanding attacks a part of durabilty assuming we can calc the energy that's not dispersed (i.e. heat/entropy)?

As for the second paragraph...

If a real creature truly had this site’s definition of 9-B durability it would be invincible to humans and they would break their hands trying to kill it (since even 9-C steel is invincible to 80% of all humans). Yet that doesn’t happen with practically any animals (except for extremely bulky, armored, ones).

We have grizzly bears on site & there's only 2 people recorded to kill one with their bare hands. Just because an animal is way stronger than you (or up to 9-B levels of strength), doesn't mean it's completely invincible. They're capable of feats no other person can do on their own & yet you say their durability should be lower than the strength they regularly withstand. You just stated the fact that energy disperses on impact too. Grizzlies can rip a steel door off if it's hinges. If you tried to fight a Grizzly, you'd get severely mauled, if durability of the things when they hold back was the important thing, Grizzlies wouldn't be able to do the things they do since much of their feats are superhuman & need the physiology to do the feats. Superhuman strength is useless if you don't have the durability to take the strength since the strength would easily injure your body otherwise.

Humans passively hold back when they know they are going to hit something hard, for obvious reasons. Your brain doesn’t want you to kill yourself like an idiot.

Obviously.

 

[Keeweed]

You can’t hold back durability in real life. An unconscious elephant would be just as hard to kill as an awake elephant that refuses to protect itself. With the protection being ap, nothing to do with durability.

So people have killed bears with their bare hands and that’s when the bear does try to protect itself. That just proves my point, a 10-B can harm and kill the bear.

You all keep missing the point, the 10-B damage does anything to begin with. The 10-B attack does damage, damage that can even be fatal. Why would animals have 9-B durability if you are even acknowledging how 10-B damage hurts and can even kill them?

The actual target of the attack is the squishy weak flesh and skin all animals share because almost all skin and flesh are made out of the same materials (except for things specifically designed to be armor like tough thick hides, armored plating, and scales).

You again miss the point, the lion doesn’t survive. The lion is damaged by the attack, the attack did its job. The part of the body the tiger actually hits is destroyed, the lion is injuried, the lion will straight up die from these injuries. It doesn’t die because the tiger doesn’t hit a part needed for survival, if a tiger hits a lion in the spine or bone part of its neck it will break and the lion will die. If the tiger slashes its stomach open, it will tear apart and the lion will die. If it hits it in the face the face is torn apart, only the skeleton protects the lions brains from being obliterated and we don’t count skeletons (as shown by humans not having 9-C durability for it).

Edit: I brought up the holding back part when it comes to punching cause the other guy said he punched a wall. I was saying I doubt he punched the wall all that hard if it didn’t hurt his hand.

 

[R4ndomPlayer315]

So people have killed bears with their bare hands and that’s when the bear does try to protect itself. That just proves my point, a 10-B can harm and kill the bear.

The first record states that a bear died only by being strangled to death and in the second record, that bear died because its jugular was being bitten by that dude's teeth, which are way more superior than a punch, and he shoved his own hand against the bear's throat, choking it to death.

You all keep missing the point, the 10-B damage does anything to begin with. The 10-B attack does damage, damage that can even be fatal. Why would animals have 9-B durability if you are even acknowledging how 10-B damage hurts and can even kill them?

Of course humans can't hurt 9-B animals, a hippo can tank bullets with no problem which is consistent by the fact that they can also wreck cars by charging at it and they can survive the impact.

The actual target of the attack is the squishy weak flesh and skin all animals share because almost all skin and flesh are made out of the same materials (except for things specifically designed to be armor like tough thick hides, armored plating, and scales).

Even though they're made of the same material, as I had shown above, that hippo's durability is vastly stronger than a human's durability, meaning that not all animal durability are the same to a human's despite being made of the same material.

 

[R4ndomPlayer315]

You again miss the point, the lion doesn’t survive. The lion is damaged by the attack, the attack did its job. The part of the body the tiger actually hits is destroyed, the lion is injuried, the lion will straight up die from these injuries. It doesn’t die because the tiger doesn’t hit a part needed for survival, if a tiger hits a lion in the spine or bone part of its neck it will break and the lion will die. If the tiger slashes its stomach open, it will tear apart and the lion will die. If it hits it in the face the face is torn apart, only the skeleton protects the lions brains from being obliterated and we don’t count skeletons (as shown by humans not having 9-C durability for it).

We've been saying this a couple times already, lions and tigers can trade blows in captivity and you keep acting like as if the bones of a lion are like wooden sticks to the tiger strike.

 

[Keeweed]

A hippo doesn’t tank the bullets they pierce it’s body and kill it if they hit something fatal. They probably can’t go all the way through, but that’s from bulk, not durability. Its like saying a block of steel would have higher durability than steel, it doesn’t, the attack just didn’t have the energy required to destroy all of it.

Humans not being able to kill Hippos is, again, due to their massive bulk (and they are one of the few animals that have a reason to be 9-C or higher durability wise, their hide is specifically evolved for durability, but I can’t think of an 9-B attack that won’t kill them if it actually managed to hit anything needed for the hippos survival). You hit practically nothing when you punch a hippo.

How does the hippo’s flesh being more durable make any sense when you just acknowledged it’s the same material. It’s made out of the same exact thing, it literally can’t be stronger for no reason.

The reason it is harder or kill larger animals is because the overall destruction needed to destroy significant amounts of them is higher, but the actual durability of what makes up their bodies is the same (unless it is something like hide, scales, or things specifically designed for durability, but those are the exceptions not the rule).

For 1) Any true good hit from a tiger could break a lions bones, especially the small thinner ones like it’s neck bones. 2) Doesn’t matter anyways, bones are irrelevant here, nothing gets durability from their bones (unless you are like wolverine from marvel and your bones are a massive big deal). The tiger probably couldn’t break every bone a lion has with ease, but I’m referring to their flesh, skin, and organs. The parts you actually need to hit in order to kill an animal.

 

[R4ndomPlayer315]

A hippo doesn’t tank the bullets they pierce it’s body and kill it if they hit something fatal. They probably can’t go all the way through, but that’s from bulk, not durability. Its like saying a block of steel would have higher durability than steel, it doesn’t, the attack just didn’t have the energy required to destroy all of it.

A google search would contradict this argument as shown here, hippos can tank bullets. Also their bulk is how we determine its durability as H3110l12345l20 said above.

 

[Keeweed]

Again, using its bulk for durability is the equivalent of saying a block of steel is more durable than steel.

Also, as shown by our tank pages, we don’t scale bulk and overall destruction to usable durability (plus the only reason the tank pages list overall destruction is for reference, so when characters demolish tanks we know what that means).

That article is 100% wrong because rhinos and elephants specifically aren’t bulletproof and both have better defenses than a hippo (do I even need to pull up articles, white rhinos literally went extinct because we shot them to death). Plus people shoot hippopotamus to death all the time, there’s a reason practically every animal in Africa is going extinct (we shoot them alot).

 

[R4ndomPlayer315]

That article is 100% wrong because rhinos and elephants specifically aren’t bulletproof and both have better defenses than a hippo (do I even need to pull up articles, white rhinos literally went extinct because we shot them to death). Plus people shoot hippopotamus to death all the time, there’s a reason practically every animal in Africa is going extinct (we shoot them alot).

Ever heard of an elephant gun? That’s a gun they’d use to hunt down and kill elephants, buffaloes, and other animals and can yield 9-B AP at most.

 

[Keeweed]

That gun does something called “killing the creature”. They don’t scale.

Plus regular guns can absolutely pierce an elephant, ancient spears drive mammoths into extinction and spears today can harm elephants.

Plus you keep failing to understand the underlying issue. Elephants are made out of the same materials humans are made out of. That material can be destroyed by 10-B and even 10-C damage. 10-C damage is shown to work on many of the supposed “9-B” creatures because bugs burrow into these creatures’ flesh all the time. (And yes, I would argue humans have 10-C durability and that our 10-B durability needs to be lower or real humans need to be treated vastly differently to fiction ones; our 10-B fist really easily hurt and kill other humans, I can’t think of a human that just walks off getting punched in the face through sheer durability and not pain tolerance).

It’s bulk that allows bigger creatures to survive stuff, the attacks require more energy to destroy more and more flesh. But the flesh isn’t anymore durable than before.

It’s like saying a building should have 8-C durability or a block of steel would have durability equal to its overall destruction. They don’t, they are as durable as the materials that make them up. If you can break the material you can harm and destroy the overall structure/creature in this case.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

That gun does something called “killing the creature”. They don’t scale.

Plus regular guns can absolutely pierce an elephant, ancient spears drive mammoths into extinction and spears today can harm elephants.

Plus you keep failing to understand the underlying issue. Elephants are made out of the same materials humans are made out of. That material can be destroyed by 10-B and even 10-C damage. 10-C damage is shown to work on many of the supposed “9-B” creatures because bugs burrow into these creatures’ flesh all the time. (And yes, I would argue humans have 10-C durability and that our 10-B durability needs to be lower or real humans need to be treated vastly differently to fiction ones; our 10-B fist really easily hurt and kill other humans, I can’t think of a human that just walks off getting punched in the face through sheer durability and not pain tolerance).

It’s bulk that allows bigger creatures to survive stuff, the attacks require more energy to destroy more and more flesh. But the flesh isn’t anymore durable than before.

It’s like saying a building should have 8-C durability or a block of steel would have durability equal to its overall destruction. They don’t, they are as durable as the materials that make them up. If you can break the material you can harm and destroy the overall structure/creature in this case.

You're a worthy opponent to debate, but even I agree that piercing damage is an issue in scaling durabilty.

I'll present my arguments later btw.

 

[R4ndomPlayer315]

That gun does something called “killing the creature”. They don’t scale.

Plus regular guns can absolutely pierce an elephant, ancient <_o-fip-hl>spears drive mammoths into extinction and <_o-fip-hl>spears today can harm elephants.

Plus you keep failing to understand the underlying issue. Elephants are made out of the same materials humans are made out of. That material can be destroyed by 10-B and even 10-C damage. 10-C damage is shown to work on many of the supposed “9-B” creatures because bugs burrow into these creatures’ flesh all the time. (And yes, I would argue humans have 10-C durability and that our 10-B durability needs to be lower or real humans need to be treated vastly differently to fiction ones).

It’s bulk that allows bigger creatures to survive stuff, the attacks require more energy to destroy more and more flesh. But the flesh isn’t anymore durable than before.

It’s like saying a building should have 8-C durability or a block of steel would have durability equal to its overall destruction. They don’t, they are as durable as the materials that make them up. If you can break the material you can harm and destroy the overall structure/creature in this case.

Elephants are able to wreck cars and can survive that amount of force, meaning humans can’t harm elephants. Also have there even been records of a person being able to harm an elephants with their own punches at all? Also about the Elephant Gun, yeah they’re those animals, that’s how they can get killed. And as H3110l12345I20, using piercing damage against 9-B creatures is an issue of scaling durability.

 

[Keeweed]

Again, the force that acts against you in Newton’s third law doesn’t just directly hit you. It’s disperses across your body. If an elephant curpstomped onto another elephant’s head they would die. Especially since we can’t take their skull into account here because our human profiles don’t.

For Elephants: they are 1 of the rare exceptions when it comes to outer durability, they have thick hides designed to take damage. Their skin is actually above 10-B, unlike the large majority of creatures which have skin similar to ours. However, I imagine you could pretty easily damage and destroy the insides of an elephant if you could grasp onto and attack their organs and small amounts of their flesh. Especially since bugs have no problem digging throughout their insides and flesh.

As you just said the elephant gun kills them, thus how is that a durability feat for them. They die, the bullet pierces their body and kills them.

I know it’s piercing damage, but piercing damage specifically doesn’t ignore durability in any way, it just allows more energy to hit a smaller spot. Which proves my point here, when you can properly hit a creature, without having your attack dispersed by their bulk, the attack destroys all the flesh and skin it has the energy to destroy. What stops the bullet is that it spends up its kinetic energy destroying the flesh and eventually enough flesh stops it. The flesh didn’t tank the shot, the shot didn’t have the power to continue.

 

[R4ndomPlayer315]

Again, the force that acts against you in Newton’s third law doesn’t just directly hit you. It’s disperses across your body. If an elephant curpstomped onto another elephant’s head they would die. Especially since we can’t take their skull into account here because our human profiles don’t.

Yes, energy would disperse but since that is going happen, this is still gonna be a durability feat if the animal survive slow because the energy is dispersing across the animal.

For Elephants: they are 1 of the rare exceptions when it comes to outer durability, they have thick hides designed to take damage. Their skin is actually above 10-B, unlike the large majority of creatures which have skin similar to ours. However, I imagine you could pretty easily damage and destroy the insides of an elephant if you could grasp onto and attack their organs and small amounts of their flesh. Especially since bugs have no problem digging throughout their insides and flesh.

Didn’t you say earlier that elephants should be 10-B because they’re made of the same material as a human?

As you just said the elephant gun kills them, thus how is that a durability feat for them. They die, the bullet pierces their body and kills them.

Of course it’s not a durability feat, I just explained why an elephant would die from a gunshot my reasoning is that they’re killed by the elephant gun which has enough energy release >50000 joules and elephants are capable of bringing down trees by just tackling them and are be able to survive that amount force when going toe to toe with other elephants.

I know it’s piercing damage, but piercing damage specifically doesn’t ignore durability in any way, it just allows more energy to hit a smaller spot. Which proves my point here, when you can properly hit a creature, without having your attack dispersed by their bulk, the attack destroys all the flesh and skin it has the energy to destroy.

Even so, I’d say it hit its jugular, causing blood loss or was stabbed many times by spears from many humans to the point of blood loss.

What stops the bullet is that it spends up its kinetic energy destroying the flesh and eventually enough flesh stops it. The flesh didn’t tank the shot, the shot didn’t have the power to continue.

So you’re saying that it’s flesh stops the bullet because it didn’t have enough power to pierce through the flesh, then into vital organs? Shouldn’t that be a durability feat at all? Because that animal survives that gunshot due to its flesh stopping that bullet.

 

[Keeweed]

I said 10-B for convenience. I more generally think humans should be 10-C, same for the flesh of other animals, but that’s a discussion for a different time (I just wanted to put it out there that’s my opinion).

I’m trying to say the bullet is stopped through the sheer amount of material it has to travel through, not the materials durability. The bullet has enough power to destroy the material, it rips through the flesh, it just lacks the power to destroy all the flesh (from the sheer amount of it). That durability doesn’t line up with this site’s definition of durability. Durability on this site requires you to actually stop the damage, like how steel would stop a human fist from doing anything.

The bulk doesn’t disperse the energy in a way that’s usable for durability, I meant that your fist lacks the range and power to deal significant damage to the creature. But significant here doesn’t apply to durability, it applies to survivability. The flesh is still injuried, it isn’t somehow more durable than the material it is made out of. The attack just doesn’t destroy enough of it to fatally injury the creature. But the creature is still damaged and material that makes up its body doesn’t tank the blow.

How do you keep missing the point, the spears stab into the creature in the first place. It is bleeding because the 9-C weapon went through its flesh and killed it. It’s dying because of the damage it received, the damage that was easily caused by a weapon that can only deal minimal damage to actual 9-C materials like steel and other metals. The flesh didn’t survive nor block the blow, the attack did its job.

 

[Keeweed]

I just want to point out, it’s 1 am for me right now, and I have been working on school work all day. So I’m extra tired right now. I’ll be back later.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

I've been called back to this thread it seems.

That's the problem with durability I had with the very start, the way we rate it on our site is......not very good for applying to real world profiles, to say the least. I don't think I can dispute anything Keeweed says because it's factually correct, it's just about how we decide to define things on our real world profiles. Making the durability humans based on whether their skin can completely neglect an attack is not optimal for the purposes of versus battle debating and making humans 10-C is definitely not what we want to do when that tier is defined as below human.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Also it's true that the force hitting you disperses over your body but then we ignore that for our fictional profiles......

 

[Keeweed]

Well, I was more thinking 10-C for durability should end at a lower number, while 10-B durability should also start at that lower number. Since human ap is generally much higher than human durability. Though that kinda is a site wide thing; so just focusing on real world not working well with our site would probably be better.

 

[R4ndomPlayer315]

So apparently, from the research that I did to actually see if I was wrong or right about about my assumption being that muscle strength varies, I found that elastic modulus and ultimate stress of tendons, in general, increases as body size increases according to this study below.

Relationship between tendon stiffness and failure: a metaanalysis - PMC

Tendon is a highly specialized, hierarchical tissue designed to transfer forces from muscle to bone; complex viscoelastic and anisotropic behaviors have been extensively characterized for specific subsets of tendons. Reported mechanical data ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Thoughts?

Edit: Made errors in my post, meant that as body size increases, the elastic modulus and ultimate stress of tendons also increases.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Also it's true that the force hitting you disperses over your body but then we ignore that for our fictional profiles......

2 questions, should the non-dispersed energy be calced to determine the durability for IRL profiles? Should our current animals be rated 10-B in durability for being able to get beaten up by humans if they hold back their strength & should specific parts/materials of the body be rated with different durability ratings? There's still the physiology issue, animals shouldn't be judged solely on their weak flesh, their muscles & bones are adapted to withstanding things more than regular humans can usually handle (LS is a factor in strength too), making them different to them even though animals & humans are made up of the same types of materials. Withstanding a beating by a human for several minutes is much better than the feats of street fights ending in seconds or a minute at most.

So apparently, from the research that I did to actually see if I was wrong or right about about my assumption being that muscle strength varies, I found that elastic modulus and ultimate stress, in general, increases with size according to this study below.

Relationship between tendon stiffness and failure: a metaanalysis - PMC

Tendon is a highly specialized, hierarchical tissue designed to transfer forces from muscle to bone; complex viscoelastic and anisotropic behaviors have been extensively characterized for specific subsets of tendons. Reported mechanical data ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Thoughts?

IDK

 

[R4ndomPlayer315]

2 questions, should the non-dispersed energy be calced to determine the durability for IRL profiles? Should our current animals be rated 10-B in durability for being able to get beaten up by humans if they hold back their strength & should specific parts/materials of the body be rated with different durability ratings? There's still the physiology issue, animals shouldn't be judged solely on their weak flesh, their muscles & bones are adapted to withstanding things more than regular humans can usually handle (LS is a factor in strength too), making them different to them even though animals & humans are made up of the same types of materials. Withstanding a beating by a human for several minutes is much better than the feats of street fights ending in seconds or a minute at most.

By that study I had found above about the ultimate stress and elastic modulus of tendons correlating with size, yeah I’d agree.