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Re-examining Super Mario cast Tiers

The_Impress said:
...please don't use comic files as an example for anything considering they have a multitude of special standards (some which aren't listed on the pages but people still use them in thread), especially DC ones, when DC is a VERY POORLY maintained verse.

Anyways the things have to be canonically variable in tier, if it's just wildly inconsistent, I think the general consensus is listing them as Unknown (tho unsure if doing that to an entire verse is a good practice)
Click to expand...
I See, Thanks for the explanation

truly I was considering using certain Red Ruby who also has a variable tier for reasons unknown to me but I think that verse would only spark more flames
 
You know, I was going to mention in reference to the WarioWare and DKC stuff how the DK pages have keys that separate DKC from Mario with different stats, but then I noticed that Wario has it too with Wario Land Series (Land, World and Master of Disguise)

Expect that, the Black Jewel feat from Wario World is listed on the Mario Series Key
 
I'm going to need to point out a detail, not many people are going to trust an OP that is 100+ paragraphs long with each paragraph basically being 1-2 lines or sentences individually.
 
The_Impress said:
Anyways the things have to be canonically variable in tier, if it's just wildly inconsistent, I think the general consensus is listing them as Unknown (tho unsure if doing that to an entire verse is a good practice)
Click to expand...
Yeah, I wouldn't like to slap Unknown on Mario profiles, they are far to popular and ther is way too much material to simply do so.

At the same time, power levels are objectively inconsistent, sometimes even on the same game.
 
TMaakkonen said:
  • Super Mario World has Mario lifting castles, no clear indication on universe+ levels
  • Yoshi’s Island has Rafael the Raven’s star creation
  • 64 has the pocket world creations, but also feature Mario being unable to harm Bowser directly without Bowser’s own bombs
Click to expand...
Several characters low 2-C characters have lower LS but that was causal.

What is the anti feat

Mario and Bowser still scale above power star users and bombs have harmed low 2-C's without destroying existence
TMaakkonen said:
  • Mario & Luigi Superstar Saga (a fall from not even space knocks Bowser unconscious)
  • WarioWare Touched! (Visibly shown, relates to story majorly)
  • WarioWare Gold (Visibly shown, relates to story majorly)
  • Mario Power Tennis (Visibly shown characters being hurt by significantly weaker attack)
  • New Super Mario Bros (Visibly shown, relates to story majorly)
  • Mario & Luigi Partners in Time (a fall knocks Bowser unconscious)
  • Mario vs. Donkey Kong (Visibly shown, relates to story majorly)
  • Super Mario Galaxy (Kamek’s blasts is not at Low 2-C levels at start of the game)
  • Super Mario Galaxy 2 (Bowser is hurt by not even 3-A feat)
  • Donkey Kong Country Returns (Visibly shown, small detail)
  • Super Mario 3D Land (Cutscenes imply bridge destruction and debris can hurt Bowser significantly)
  • New Super Mario Bros U (Cutscenes imply KCK can hurt Bowser significantly)
  • Super Mario 3D World (Cutscenes imply POW Block can hurt Bowser significantly)
  • Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze (DK & Gang are affected by Wind not strong enough to even destroy a planet)
  • Mario Party 10 (cannonballs hurt Bowser to turn into undead Dry Bowser)
  • Super Mario Odyssey
  • PM Origami King (Contradicted by game itself with Mario struggling to move a stone, heavily contradicts prior statements)
Click to expand...

Wasn't he beaten by fawful before that.

The only relevant character is wario and tell us what happened.

Same as the last one.

For example?

What happened if it is bowser dying in lava not only is that heavily inconsistent but a heat feat.

Wasn't he just beat up.

What happened?

It clearly harmed Mario and given kamek doesn't normally shoot Mario into space with his spell blast it could be a special non AP spell.

What the black hole he fell in after being beaten by Mario?

What happened because for some reason we gave that a different key.

I guess but I always thought that was only for humor or PIS and it just made a falling bowser spin and fall faster.

I mean it's should scale and that was the junior clown kart which should also scale.

Maybe but it didn't make him lose his power up and given basically every other pow block feat is one-shoting everything in the area I don't see a big problem.

Still different key and that is LS

If I recall the cannonball were used to blow up bowser's tank which lunched him into lava which caused his transformation into dry bowser the correct "anti feat" is them harming dry bowser but harming bowser and weaponry bowser choose to use is those cannonballs only feats.

What happened? Bowser using his hat which only two feats is hurting Mario and hurting bowser? If it's Mario going unconscious landing in cap kingdom that was after being beaten by bowser. If it is the lost kingdom drop he just fought bowser, ran from cannonballs that other feat was seemingly harming the odyssey more than the ruin dragon which Mario was in. Or moon kingdom where Mario and bowser fell unconscious Mario being knocked out is debatable given peach was perfectly fine and bowser was already knocked out by mario.

PIS
 
Alright so my last comment might seem like I am against this but honestly Mario shouldn't be low 2-C Mario is put in weird situations which leads to inconsistent traits and Mario and friends are considered a group of actors that seem to be capable of playing games with references to other games honestly Mario should be unknown.
 
Lou_change said:
Alright so my last comment might seem like I am against this but honestly Mario shouldn't be low 2-C Mario is put in weird situations which leads to inconsistent traits and Mario and friends are considered a group of actors that seem to be capable of playing games with references to other games honestly Mario should be unknown.
Click to expand...
That should only be for games where that is clear like SM3 & Mario Party 2, but technically if we use the "all Mario games are canon" statement from interviews, then shouldn't other interview information also be used?

Ofc this is very harsh, but technically this does mean picking specific parts from interviews, rather than everything which kind of doesn't seem entirely fair.
 
Yes, Mario as a whole needs some changes but everyone seems to focused on changing his AP I myself have minimal faith in my ability to find tier thru means other than clear scaling.
 
Wait hold up.

Paper Mario's profile lists link to Polygon which as well links to GameInformer's interview.

SM: If you're familiar with things like Popeye and some of the old comic characters, you would oftentimes see this cast of characters that takes on different roles depending on the comic or cartoon. They might be businessman in one [cartoon] or a pirate in another. Depending on the story that was being told, they would change roles. So, to a certain degree, I look at our characters in a similar way and feel that they can take on different roles in different games. It's more like they're one big family, or maybe a troupe of actors.

Miyamoto himself mentions this, which should heavily affect the lore of Mario as a whole.

Now I think this should be removed as a source, as otherwise we might have actual reasoning to make entire Mario cast as Unknown if all the games are just being "acted".
 
Yeah I mean I doubt everything is special effects but that makes it clear that they don't always act at their full power if ever.
 
TMaakkonen said:
Now I think this should be removed as a source, as otherwise we might have actual reasoning to make entire Mario cast as Unknown if all the games are just being "acted".
Click to expand...
Reality Equalization means it can be used IIRC, like we have with other fictional characters within fiction.
 
I always felt like Miyamoto’s quote isn’t really “every game is the same Mario” but “Mario is an actor that plays roles in many different continuities”

His Cartoon character comparison makes sense in this case, Betty Boop for example has different Roles in every cartoon, one day she’s a working mother with a kid, the other time she’s a bratty teenager who gets haunted by spirits and the other she’s running for president, however Betty is established in other cartoons to be a sort of animated actor that takes part in multiple stories that aren’t connected to each other (I remember watching one where she talks to her own creator and is told to “act” through several suggested scenarios)

how exactly that would effect canon I’m not sure honestly, on one hand, reality equalization would mean that all the feats are still valid, but on the other, that would still mean the Mario in Mario Galaxy wouldn’t be the same on in Super Mario Party
 
I don't think it makes other games uncanon to each other it's more like the same series of looney toons episodes technically canon to each other but that is really it.
 
DragonLord said:
I always felt like Miyamoto’s quote isn’t really “every game is the same Mario” but “Mario is an actor that plays roles in many different continuities”

His Cartoon character comparison makes sense in this case, Betty Boop for example has different Roles in every cartoon, one day she’s a working mother with a kid, the other time she’s a bratty teenager who gets haunted by spirits and the other she’s running for president, however Betty is established in other cartoons to be a sort of animated actor that takes part in multiple stories that aren’t connected to each other (I remember watching one where she talks to her own creator and is told to “act” through several suggested scenarios)

how exactly that would effect canon I’m not sure honestly, on one hand, reality equalization would mean that all the feats are still valid, but on the other, that would still mean the Mario in Mario Galaxy wouldn’t be the same on in Super Mario Party
Click to expand...
To add to this, the same interview that talks about Mario canon has Miyamoto say this

Mario has been a boxing referee, a doctor, an Olympian, and a carpenter. Are all these official careers in Mario lore? If he has a medical degree, why does he continue his plumbing business?

SM: There's really only one rule in terms of the things that Mario does. Generally, it's that he's more on the blue-collar side. He's hard-working, and certainly much more physical in nature. So, I think that a doctor is sort of an unexpected and perhaps unbelievable role for Mario. Perhaps the Dr. Mario you're thinking of was maybe, in some way, not necessarily legitimate.
Click to expand...
Miyamoto himself also seems to disagree on several things done to Mario over the years, calling Dr. Mario “not necessarily legitimate”, which would ether mean that Dr Mario is a fraud (which i think is contradicted In those games) or he doesn’t see it as “legitimate” aka Canon to Mario
 
DragonLord said:
To add to this, the same interview that talks about Mario canon has Miyamoto say this


Miyamoto himself also seems to disagree on several things done to Mario over the years, calling Dr. Mario “not necessarily legitimate”, which would ether mean that Dr Mario is a fraud (which i think is contradicted In those games) or he doesn’t see it as “legitimate” aka Canon to Mario
Click to expand...
I kind of agree with this idea.

Imo Mario should have had different keys or profiles based on the series (Plateformers, Mario &Luigi, Party and Paper Mario for example) rather than one mixed up thing.

Given how differents things are from one to another, it would have been the closest we have to an actual consistent tiering.
Although I don't think such a thing would pass on VSB nowadays.
 
If the energy is on a higher dimensionthen you need to prove why the energy absorbed is not 4th dimensional. By your logic absorbing 3D energy doesn't make you as strong as that energy thus 2D or less until further evidence is shown.
 
QuasiYuri said:
I kind of agree with this idea.

Imo Mario should have had different keys or profiles based on the series (Plateformers, Mario &Luigi, Party and Paper Mario for example) rather than one mixed up thing.

Given how differents things are from one to another, it would have been the closest we have to an actual consistent tiering.
Although I don't think such a thing would pass on VSB nowadays.
Click to expand...
If it was me I’d probably just split it up like

Main Mario (anything with the main Mario Design you see, Platformers, Karts, Parties)
Paper Mario (obvious)
Mario & Luigi (also obvious what I’m talking about)
Mario & Rabbids (The Newest Ubisoft thing kinda implies it’s there own thing as the guy at Ubisoft said the game was expanding there “our Universe” not “Nintendo’s Universe”
 
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DragonLord said:
If it was me I’d probably just split it up like

Main Mario (anything with the main Mario Design you see, Platformers, Karts, Parties)
Paper Mario (obvious)
Mario & Luigi (also obvious what I’m talking about)
Mario & Rabbids (The Newest Ubisoft thing kinda implies it’s there own thing as the guy at Ubisoft said the game was expanding there “our Universe” not Nintendo’s Universe”
Click to expand...
This looks like something I would agree with.
Although maybe I would divide all the sports game in their own category too.

Now I want it accepted and applied
 
DragonLord said:
If it was me I’d probably just split it up like

Main Mario (anything with the main Mario Design you see, Platformers, Karts, Parties)
Paper Mario (obvious)
Mario & Luigi (also obvious what I’m talking about)
Mario & Rabbids (The Newest Ubisoft thing kinda implies it’s there own thing as the guy at Ubisoft said the game was expanding there “our Universe” not “Nintendo’s Universe”
Click to expand...
That doesn't inherently mean not Nintendo's verse. Connecting verses would indeed be expanding.

What is Mario & Luigi? Is that a spin off?
 
I would agree with a Mario key split, it's ambitious and likely very controversial but it seems like a good way to handle it for me.
 
QuasiYuri said:
This looks like something I would agree with.
Although maybe I would divide all the sports game in their own category too.

Now I want it accepted and applied
Click to expand...
While were at it maybe something for Doctor Mario, gotta be some feats and Abilties somewhere in those 10 games i think
 
Can someone call some supporters?

Anyway I am opposed to splitting anything outside of rabbids as I recall the developers out right saying it isn't canon.

I can also accept paper mario but it is heavily implied both paper Mario and Mario went thru the same adventures so many keep the other's abilities as possibly shared.

Mario and Luigi should stay because I honestly don't think there is really any evidence against that also that basically leaves us with the everyone scales to everyone from the party games and that can't end well.
 
DragonLord said:
If it was me I’d probably just split it up like

Main Mario (anything with the main Mario Design you see, Platformers, Karts, Parties)
Paper Mario (obvious)
Mario & Luigi (also obvious what I’m talking about)
Mario & Rabbids (The Newest Ubisoft thing kinda implies it’s there own thing as the guy at Ubisoft said the game was expanding there “our Universe” not “Nintendo’s Universe”
Click to expand...
How is Mario & Luigi obvious? Paper Mario and Mario & Rabbids I can kinda understand but M&L doesn't show anything to say that they aren't. Hell the first game actually implies that it is in the Main Mario universe with nothing saying otherwise after this game (and before you bring up the Paper boxes, Paper Jam retconned that and nothing else)
 
Actually, there's a few slight issues with splitting, for example, the platform games are blatantly canon to all of them at the very least (or at least a handful). Like 3D is obvious, we even see recordings from Fludd confirming games like bros 1 happen, same goes for the others too iirc.
Sport games are weird, they're mentioned to have occurred in Paper at least.

I don't disagree with some splits and keys, but, it's not as simple as just splitting it up by game lines, there does exist some overlap and shared games so like 🤔 If we do split, we need to figure out which games have an overlapping canon.
 
I personally agree with things like doctor mario.

but doubtful about mario & luigi or paper mario, there is evidence that within these games there are continuities with other mario games and in fact with paper mario i remember there was enough evidence to show that they are the same mario.

so doctor mario at least for me is fine to be something separate to the main saga, but very doubtful about others.
 
y3p_owo said:
How is Mario & Luigi obvious? Paper Mario and Mario & Rabbids I can kinda understand but M&L doesn't show anything to say that they aren't. Hell the first game actually implies that it is in the Main Mario universe with nothing saying otherwise after this game (and before you bring up the Paper boxes, Paper Jam retconned that and nothing else)
Click to expand...
I meant obvious as in what series I’m referring too

though I feel like the Box thing is really more of a Easter egg/neat reference, it’s like a game showing x character over the years and the first showing is a sprite, I don’t think there really saying they actually looked like that back then
 
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I disagree with the splitting to an extent. Paper Mario is like DBGT. Same events from Z as DBS but different sequels still. Rabbids & M&L was never objectively creating another continuity. Just our headcanon and skepticism saying they just shouldn't together.

Party & Racing is odd. They are just for play not story games to an extent thus we should prolly find some references from the real continuity that connects them. Or someone hit up a developer on Twitter. That usually seems to work.

Also is Sma5h being questioned as well? I don't recall seeing this series as it's own but instead just a few character found only there scaled like the hands that look like Glover or that big ball of light with the theme song at the beginning of the game.
 
Scratch the parties, apparently MP5 implies it’s there own “World”

image0.png
 
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