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Rakudai Kishi no Cavalry Discussion Thread

^^

She is a criminal who is so strong they stopped trying to capture her so like i would guess she is the strongest. Also she saved ouma from tyrant who's arguably stronger than superman and white beard. I'm pretty sure she's the strongest.
 
I already know i'm going to regret this but this kinda needs to be resolved

So

What is the explaination for the feat with Ikki stomping 4 clones of himself with 48x his stats? The only explaination i've gotten is that "Ikki knew his weakness", which the clones would as well, and they were literally 48 times faster than him, meaning that they would've killed him before he was able to think, unless the Ittou form multipliers are wrong.
 
>Unless Ittou Multipliers are wrong

I mean you would literally need to have Ittou Shura be a downgrade by that logic.

But apparently since the thought processes weren't the same they lacked the same battle capabilities. But it was just cus the though processes weren't the same.

Cus the clones were materializations of a girl's imagination (via noble art) but apparently it's impossible to create the exact thoughts.
 
I don't think that miniscule differences in the thoughts of exact clones is enough justification for overcoming a 48x statistical difference and the fact that you are outnumbered 4:1, especially when the clones would have been able to basically read Ikki's thoughts
 
Hl3 or bust said:
I don't think that miniscule differences in the thoughts of exact clones is enough justification for overcoming a 48x statistical difference and the fact that you are outnumbered 4:1, especially when the clones would have been able to basically read Ikki's thoughts
Click to expand...
You say it miniscule but Ikki just before that beat Edelweiss's clone created by that same girl using the same method.

This was a weakness mentioned when fighting Edel but it could apply to both cases. But the thing is, due to the nature of Sara, she was seeking victory too much and as such her clones abused every opportunity. If they saw an oppening they would strike. Ikki used this when he understood that in a certain case, it would have been better for Edel not to strike, but she did. So he was capable of actually trying to create fake oppenings and use the thought advantage to win.

This was the whole idea how he beat everyone. And him beating his 48x clones was casual, him beating Edel was a far bigger deal.
 
Irrelevant to this conversation and a separate issue.

Isn't that literally how Ikki is anyways? The quote on his page would lead most to believe so. That still doesn't account for the fact that the clones would close in and kill him well before he could move enough to create a fake opening, much less utilize the advantage that said opening may or may not have given in the first place, because 48x times his speed is far faster than he should be able to react even with his bullshit senses.

You realize that this only exasperates the issue that this feat causes right
 
Oh i see your problem. It's the idea that "48x would be an omega blitz so that ikki would never have been able to react"?

That's wrong actually cus you don't apply "vsbw logic" in fiction. Every author has his own depiction of how much AP and Speed differences matter. In rakudai the author deems it possible to deal with 48x speed difference although with difficulty.

Same as how Stella could actually notice ikki moving during Ittou Rasetsu.
 
There's a difference between applying "VSBW logic" and common sense. If someone ran at you at 48x the speed you could move, not only would you barely be able to see them but you would have 0 chance to move out of the way or really do anything before they got you. This kind of thing has been used to downgrade stat amp multipliers before.

So no, I am not wrong because of the "logic" i am applying, i'm just saying that the equivalent of a high-end super car compared to you in speed running straight for you at max speed isn't exactly something you can dodge or even react to. You can pull "lel author doesn't care" all you want but that doesn't change the fact that the scene makes 0 sense and so do your explainations.

Except that there it's actually listed as higher perception speed. Here all i'm being told is "lol skill just accept it".
 
Could be argued that he had used Pseudo-Ittou Shura there. It wasn't mentioned but it's a possibility none the less. It amps his perception and thought speed.
 
Hardly, i mean it has a legit explanation, it just feels a bit iffy. And that wasn't even a great feat in verse, it was like "yeah he can do that no prob".
 
It not being treated as a big deal doesn't change the fact that there is no logical way that he could defeat those clones with the context given. Not only does this create circular scaling for speed, AP, and skill, but it also sets a bad precident.
 
See if it was more like Archer vs Lancer, where the only reason Archer was surviving even a basic string of attacks was because he knew Lancer's style really well and could count on him to take advantage of every opening and gun it towards victory, so he could create false openings to make his moves more predictable.

But the fact that Archer does so in order to barely hold Lancer off, while Ikki does so to curbstomp four clones of his skill with vastly greater AP is the problem.
 
It wasn't circular skill. He abused a weakness. The speed as i said he could have used Pseudo Ittou Shura for perception speed. Ap is really not a big deal. You can 1 shot people even sometimes stronger than yourself via "slicing" negating a huge amount of dura.

The weakness was that "if they see an oppening they'll go for it".

And by "wasn't a big deal" i mean as in "beating edel was a far greater feat" cus she outskilled him not much time ago while toying with him, is far stronger and faster than him too.
 
No it is. He somehow outskilled himself times 4 becuase the clones would've had the ability to not only know about the weakness but also the fact that the real Ikki was going to abuse it. Slicing damage......eh i guess that makes sense.

I am aware that Edelweiss was basically Ikki+ at the time.
 
Yes but thought process. Even if they should know they wouldn't stop cus their mindset was to aim for victory at all times without tactics. They are basically bloodlusted but they have a need to end the fight which apparently could be abused. I think it was a form of they were ikki clones created by a non fighter.
 
So gunning for victory at all costs means intentionally disregarding what you 100% know that your opponent is going to do, even when it will straight up kill you despite their weakness?
 
More like their mindset was to go for openings even if it's better to keep them in. They had the skill but not the experience I guess you could say.
 
Again it being casual doesn't negate the possibility of it being an outlier unless you want to argue that Iceman should be 1-A for kind of meming on Oblivion. The explaination, as I have repeatedly pointed out, makes 0 ******* sense unless the clones wanted to die.
 
Let me give you the quote real quick. Sorry for the long post but this is the entire context:

"Even if I don't think that deeply about it, I will realize after thinking about it a little. Blazer's ability is unique for each individual. That's absolute. No matter how versatile the power seems to be, Sara-san's power is only the ability to 'materialize your own image' if you trace it back to its origin."


Color of Magic was a Noble Art that materialized the image Sara connected the color to.


Purple Caricature was a Noble Art that directly materialized the image she drew as it was.


In other words, her ability was not the power to create a fake exactly like the original.


It was only the power that materialized the imagination sketched out from her image.


"But how accurate can your image be? The outer appearance is the same. That's probably not a problem. Physical ability as well, from Sara-san, the world's number one artist's observant eyes, you can draw it out without any error. However......after that?"


Be it Ikki's sword or Edelweiss's sword, one strike after another, they were swinging their swords at a super high speed that normal humans could not even recognize with their sights.


In addition to that, the instant their swords met in attack and defense, there were feints with their gazes and presence. They were vying for control with their presences.


As they executed their strikes, there was a process of exchanging a battle of wits back and forth, that had been repeated many times.


That way of thinking, the sequence of thinking ÔöÇÔöÇ could Sara's image achieve all that?


"There's no way you can do it."


Ikki declared.


It was not a territory that a person, who had never held a sword before, could imagine.


It was a world of instinct reserved only for those who actually shed blood and tread along the line between life and death.


In other words, that fake Edelweiss did not have it in her body.


Only her specs were reproduced


Since she couldn't imagine the inner contents, they couldn't have been reproduced.


"However, there is a question in that case. There is no content inside, then why is she moving? Why is she fighting? I have one hypothesis regarding that. And then I have confirmed my hypothesis in the midst of fighting. When I received the attack from above, I purposely left my body's guard open."


"Purposely......?"


"That's right. And then......thanks to that, I have confirmed it."


In response to Ikki's action, fake Edelweiss chose to kick him out of the field.


Dealing damage to the opponent, and expecting a countdown for out of field, it was a pretty good move.


ÔöÇÔöÇHowever, in the case when used against an opponent at Ikki's level of body techniques, it was hard to say if it was really a move with certainty.


Even though he would be blown out of field, he would not continue to take hits, rather, there was the risk of him taking the chance to adjust his breathing due to the interruption for out of field countdown. In fact, Ikki had done just that.


Based on the result, the loss from that confrontation was on fake Edelweiss's side.


If she was the real deal, she would not have made such a naive mistake.


Instead of the victory before her eyes, she would've probably prioritized defeating her opponent with certainty.


However, the fake made her move. She priotized the possible victory from out of field countdown that she saw before her eyes.


ÔöÇÔöÇFrom that behavior, Ikki confirmed that his hypothesis was correct.


"What you have projected is 'Edelweiss who will win against Ikki Kurogane'. That's why she seeks victory recklessly. She will bite onto the slimmest opening she sees."


"............!"


"And then......it's been easy once I understood that. I just have to purposefully create the shortest route towards victory. I just have to purposefully attack and create an opening to show her a glimpse of victory."


If he did that, she would stupidly rush in straightforwardly just like then.


Time and time again.


She wasn't a living creature that could think in the first place. She was just an image seeking victory.


She couldn't even learn from experience, and couldn't stop herself once she saw a glimpse of victory.


"Such an easy and naive attack, no matter how fast, how sharp, or how many times she performs it, it doesn't matter. ÔöÇÔöÇIt's not scary anymore."


"Kuh!"


At Ikki's fearless smile, Sara could not hide her overflowing agitation.


The reason was obviously because Ikki's deduction was right on the mark, seeing through the true colors of fake Edelweiss made from Purple Caricature.


Like he said, Sara did not have the ability to draw the detailed offense, defense and thinking pattern.


What she could draw was the information of the model she had observed, and the concept of 'victory'.


Hence, when the opponent took on defense which was further from victory, the image of Blazers she had created from Purple Caricature would break through that defense for 'victory', taking tactical actions in accordance to the fake's specs, it was still considered as passive. If the other side showed a glimpse of 'victory' defenselessly like what Ikki had done......she would advance straight towards it. She wouldn't be able to not advance.


Because fake Edelweiss was not a living person, just an image for the sake of winning against him.
 
Hl3 or bust said:
Doesn't that quote also say that the clones aren't perfect or even retain most of the abilities of the original?
Click to expand...
The clones are perfect in every aspect including skill. But they have a specific mindset, due to Sara's conceptual manip she inserted the "concept of victory" in their minds when creating them apparently, so they will as ikki says seek victory recklessly.
 
Again

When did wanting to win become intentionally ignoring things that you 100% know your opponent will do and will also definitely kill you?
 
Hl3 or bust said:
Again
When did wanting to win become intentionally ignoring things that you 100% know your opponent will do and will also definitely kill you?
Click to expand...
When they do not have thoughts, but just a mindset. They will just aim for the oppening no matter how uncertain or reckless it is.

Like he literally just states above that they will go for that, what do you want from me?
 
Hl3 or bust said:
So the clones were literally suicidal is what you're saying
Click to expand...
Rather than suicidal, more like they will go for the smallest oppening no matter what. Ever realize what happens in a really tight game where people just tend to go even for chip damage if possible and forget about using better tactics. Same thing here, they are conceptually created to "beat ikki" and that literally means that the only "thought" they have is to beat Ikki, nothing else. They are not suicidal, but their weakness can be abused to make them like that i guess.
 
The thing is is that there is literally no reason for that to make any sense. Those clones, unless they weren't perfect and lacked Ikki's abilities, would have Perfect Vision, meaning that they literally knew what Ikki was trying to do and both intentionally fell into the trap of an attack that they also knew would kill them but also didn't attempt to abuse any other possible opening that may have existed.

So either the clones were ******* stupid, suicidal, or not perfect. There is no explaination for this outside of PIS that makes any sense, and it being casual or explained does not change this.
 
Not stupid or suicidal. They had a given mindset. They were told what to think beforehand. So whether perfect vision kicked in or not, they would still aim for the gap cus their thought process was conceptually made to be aiming for victory no matter how reckless.
 
This is not only about Ikki man, but the whole verse matches too

For me i thinking his skill argument are ridiculous (in good way) but still understandable, wonder why peoples disliking it
 
I agree, they are very ridiculous and don't make sense but most things in fiction generally don't make sense, regardless they're valid.

People just dislike things for the sake of it I guess, maybe the verse in general just doesn't fit their preferences which is fine but I dislike the way people subtlely spite the verse especially Ikki. I dislike the spam.

And I think people who haven't even read a paragraph of any volumes I presume, judge them, have preconceptionss over verse matches which is really immature. At least read a volume before judging whether you actually like it or not. This doesn't apply to Rakudai but just any verse in general. Judging verses and characters over verses matches is dumb. "Oh this character is too haxed so I dislike them by default" as an example.
 
@Rome

Shit, that happen to me with Tensei Slime, involving Yuuki. Aside that i agree abput what you pointing there

@Burst

Nobody know~, nobody care~, so stop being a try-hard neeeerds~!
 
Veloxt1r0kore said:
This is not only about Ikki man, but the whole verse matches too

For me i thinking his skill argument are ridiculous (in good way) but still understandable, wonder why peoples disliking it
Click to expand...
I mean the whole verse it really depends. Ikki has the most spam.

Finally someone who actually took the time to read the skill feats. Ikki is just virtually possible things being made practically possible via skill. And we literally have things like attack from different universes via skill in other verses which is dumb and impossible no matter how you look at it with no explanation in verse and we're like fine. Ikki has half a chapter of explanation for even his most basic stuff but ppl go like
BUGSbunny no
You should read rakudai btw.
 
What is circular scaling?

Imagine X. X has a stated tier of 7-B for being comparable to Y. Y is 7-B for being stronger than X. Without any other context, this makes X stronger than itself.
 
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