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Rakudai CRT again

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More like it needs proof that the verse treats time as part of causality or not.

They just transcend it (although Kurono being the strongest user can still affect desperados). So if anything at most just fixing on the wording to imply that even a time user is part of the causation system.
 
It can, if you don't work by cause and effect then passage of time doesn't matter, but their type 4 comes from being above fate, not by being able to elect effects without causes or make the two work in different orders.
 
I'll let you two discuss that then, I'm not too knowledgeable on that stuff
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
It can, if you don't work by cause and effect then passage of time doesn't matter, but their type 4 comes from being above fate, not by being able to elect effects without causes or make the two work in different orders.
Click to expand...
Fate is mentioned a lot more due to that being a very important part of blazers, as desperado increases magic and since magic is the size of fate blah blah blah, that's the main point. But they transcend cause and effect:

(With that one step, Another One became a being that existed outside the cause and effect of this world.)

Cause and effect which in rakudai includes all these powers:

Fate

Probability

Time

Future (the prime minister)

Causality
 
Yeah, I don't see any proof of them actually acting outside of cause and effect, and that would be really needed. They would need to actually be able to have effects at will without any cause, or to have the cause come before the effect, for that.
 
I believe that is type 5 we're talking about. And even then, i know for a fact not all type 4 need nor have that. But even then, this is from the summaries, but here's something:

In this one slash, Ikki is giving everything he has including his ability to influence fate as a Desperado. The causation of "killing" is being influenced strongly and the result Ikki desires is being forced to occur. Thus, his final secret sword "Oikage" slashes through Iris' "Orichalcos" with no resistance and cuts her torso deeply. The "armor" that was hit with the affected causation cracks and turns into black dust. Iris coughs up blood and Ikki catches her collapsed body.

He caused Iris' death simply by wanting it to happen. I could bring more cases but this should suffice, considering as i said, i have never even seen a type 4 with that kind of trait. If someone exists beyond cause and effect, it's just that, they exist beyond cause and effect, if they have special effects on top of it, that's just having abilities as a bonus, not a requirement.
 
I know not all type 4s need that, I said that myself too. However, to gain resistance to time manip through type 4, that needs to be part of the Acausuality.

And that was not really making an effect without a cause, that is giving an effect to cause. That does not remotely imply that he can think, let alone do that in time stop, or during time rewind.
 
Why though? It is just resistance, same as to how immesurable speed is not a requirement. If cause and effect includes time, then i do not see why they need to perceive time non linearly for it to work.

Not all series apply the same logic to things as we do, the same reason why we have infinite speed people capable of interacting with non infinite speed things. Or how they can still stop, despite stopping from infinite speed being impossible. Similar cases can be found everywhere.
 
Because you need proof for an ability. To receive resistance to time manip through Acausuality, your Acausuality needs to ignore time, as simple as that.

Yes, but proof is still needed. Enforcing an effect to a cause and ignoring causuality of time are very different, and if they could just make things happen without needing to actually act then that should be easy to prove.
 
I mean Time Manipulation in Rakudai is on the causation system. The strongest abilities on the causation system are viewing the fate of the entire world, turning any percentage of possibility above 0% to 100% certainty and just flat out fate manipulation based on thoughts and desires.

Desperado's cannot be affected by those aforementioned abilities, which are considered the most powerful abilities on the causation system. As far as I know they haven't interacted with Time Manipulation abilities at all.

In my opinion we should wait until they actually have interacted with time based abilities and although they are Type 4 Acausals they do interact with the world normally.
 
If the causality they transcend includes time, why would that not be sufficent proof? I don't get it.

As for applying effects without causes:

Stella carefully put her hands on the bottom of her neck with a physical unease that ran as pain.

Without a moment's delay, a thick and lukewarm sensation wet her palms.

It was blood.

A laceration in the form of a horizontal line was carved into Stella's neck.

――It was cut off at an ultrahigh speed.

No, it wasn't that.

Not only《Wings Abreast》had no sword in her hands, she also hadn't done the slightest movement.

She was too far from her sword reach. It was not possible.

Then, what happened?

She didn't know.

She didn't know, but she had an idea.

She saw a similar phenomenon before, in the match between Ikki and Sara.

― I see…. You created a barrier and stretched a vacuum dislocation around your house, right?

Stella inferred as she healed her wounds with the dragon's Regenerationn. ――But,

― No. Not at all.

― !?

― I neither carved a vacuum dislocation nor used an ability. In the first place, my abilities are not suitable for combat. … Speaking of what I did, I just released a bit strengthened bloodlust.

― Y-you're lying! How can you wound the body of the opponent with intimidation only?

Will edelweiss hurting stella just by willing it suffice?
 
Because they don't transcend time. They aren't binding themselves to time normally to interact with people while they are truly unafected by it. Resistance through acausality is the same thing as resistance to soul hax by being souless.

And no. You would need proof that the acausality let's them disregard time itself, because that's how resistances through acausality work. If you don't have a past or future, affecting those won't affect you. If you aren't bound by cause and effect, then changing those won't change what you do.

Willing someone to be hurt and working outside of time are two wholly different things. Since they are obviously bound by time, them resisting manipulation of it would need a note of its own even if its attributed to them being desperado.
 
Well they don't literally transcend causality either otherwise that would make it hard if not impossible for normal people to even interact with them. A trait that is obviously not taken into account.

Well they literally broke the chains of cause and effect, so if even time works by those standards why would it affect them? They're not transcending time, they're transcending the means to which time is manipulated.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Well they don't literally transcend causality either otherwise that would make it hard if not impossible for normal people to even interact with them. A trait that is obviously not taken into account.
Well they literally broke the chains of cause and effect, so if even time works by those standards why would it affect them? They're not transcending time, they're transcending the means to which time is manipulated.
Click to expand...
Acausuality is working in a form of causality removed from that of reality. Type 4 is working by rules different from that of the real world.

Any resistance that comes from acausality is simply lacking what is being affected by the enemy, same way a souless person is immune to soul hax.

If the power gives them resistance without actually making them work by different type of rules from the default ones is just resistance, as simple as that. The fact that their breaking of causality is gaining causality manipulation that they can use to change the fate and causes of things would just make that a power more than proper acausality.
 
It would make them resistant by virtue of time itself needing causality to work.

They don't exist within the causality of the world, but if even time works through causality then it should not affect them.
 
Well I guess this argument makes more sense now. If Despardos are outside the normal causation system then anything derived from manipulating that causation system won't work. Which includes time hax.
 
Except they are shown to work by the the laws of time.

Well, that is not shown at all else you would have shown a quote for that already. They are quiet obviouly bound by time, percieve time and interact with time the same way everything else does.

Long story short, quotes or nothing. Even if they resist time manipulation, it would be normal resistance because they are still bound by time, unless you can give showins where they are not.
 
I get your point, but i feel like this is very strict regulation, because it is assuming the authors even know what they're talking about or even whether they have the same standards as us in terms of acausality. No time resistance for desperados.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
I get your point, but i feel like this is very strict regulation, because it is assuming the authors even know what they're talking about or even whether they have the same standards as us in terms of acausality. But oh well, i'll concede for now.
Click to expand...
Problem with that is, they don't need to know.

If they make something that doesn't fit a power, then we just don't apply the power to it.

Yes, they get causality manip, and the same manip can be used to break any limitations made by causality and all that, but what you want to give them resistance to time based on is way inflatiatory.

It's the difference between making someone souless or giving them resistance to soul manip.
 
No time resistances for Desperados for now i guess.

As for the rest it's about intent i guess. If an author makes people above a system that includes even time, seems pretty obvious what the author's intent is. But eh rakudai made desperados up on the fly.
 
I get that too, but it just kind of seems... amiss to give those powers. I have my own headaches with Er Gen just making his characters work on a system where heat has nothing to do with atom movement, among many things.
 
Sorry for the annoyance byut shouldn't Ikki be Low 7B in base or am I miscalculating?
 
Schnee One said:
Sorry for the annoyance byut shouldn't Ikki be Low 7B in base or am I miscalculating?
Click to expand...
Ikki's base would be:

2.3 x 10^17 (Stella amped) x 30 (DS Stella) / 200 = 3.45 x 10^16

So pretty low tier 7-B, but 7-B none the less.
 
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