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Rakudai CRT again

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That time with shizuku well, that time with shizuku im not sure. Maybe Touka was too close and much faster than Shizuku. But we know that they do feel the time difference, example when Ikki used Trackless Step on Sara, she actually commanded the army to change their attack patterns after ikki did that.
 
How about we stop labelling stuff as stupid and start calling them supernatural? As long as a real life person can't pull it off it should be supernatural or superhuman. It's as simple as that.
 
Sir Ovens said:
How about we stop labelling stuff as stupid and start calling them supernatural? As long as a real life person can't pull it off it should be supernatural or superhuman. It's as simple as that.
Click to expand...
You can't say it's mind manipulation when the series goes out of its way to say it is not. It being impossible in real life doesn't matter, you don't get to change canon because it doesn't fit with real world logic.
 
TS objectively does not fit the definition of hypnosis:

the induction of a state of consciousness in which a person apparently loses the power of voluntary action and is highly responsive to suggestion or direction. Its use in therapy, typically to recover suppressed memories or to allow modification of behavior by suggestion, has been revived but is still controversial.
TS is making someone not register your existence, not making them more open to suggestion or whatever. Even if it did, it would completely negate your ability to say that it doesn't affect other people. Which it does regardless because otherwise it wouldn't do anything but I digress.
 
The point is to make the difference between "Tricking" or "Convincing" (Which are naturally induced results) and "Manipulating" (Which is a usually supernaturally induced result as it outright messes with your mind in supernatural ways)
 
Hl3 or bust said:
TS objectively does not fit the definition of hypnosis:
the induction of a state of consciousness in which a person apparently loses the power of voluntary action and is highly responsive to suggestion or direction. Its use in therapy, typically to recover suppressed memories or to allow modification of behavior by suggestion, has been revived but is still controversial.
TS is making someone not register your existence, not making them more open to suggestion or whatever. Even if it did, it would completely negate your ability to say that it doesn't affect other people. Which it does regardless because otherwise it wouldn't do anything but I digress.
Click to expand...
As I said, that definition is real dumb, and any hypnosist (google or real life) will tell you that they don't lose the power of voluntary actions. And the "suggestion" also includes stuff like openly ingoring the existence of things, even making people forget that there is someone hypnotizing them.

And I never said it doesn't affect others, I said it's not done by magically altering their perception. Normal hypnosis alters perception, memory and mental state if done properly too, and that is purely psychological tricks.
 
Isn't TS a combination of stealth mastery, prediction and body control? The time Ikki used TS to pass through the crowd seems to be all that at the same time.
 
@Risci

Citation please, otherwise everything you have just said is headcanon.

Except it is because normal humans don't just ignore things like that. There is no "trick" you can pull to make someone just completely ignore a person standing direction in front of them. Same goes for you Earl.
 
For the hypnosis thing? Because... real world claims are not what you call headcanon.

Under hypnosis, they can. The fact that its used supernaturally well does not mean that its magically being altered, just that the hypnosis is supernaturally good, the same way Ikki can look at people's subdle movements to learn their whole generation's worth of techniques, as well as know everything they are thinking or are about to think. It makes no sense, but he isn't sending energy to analyze his oponents mind and memories, he is just that good at reading muscle movements despite such muscle movements not even existing for normal people.
 
Can you be more precice? If you mean hypnosis being unable to work against people's will, this (F3 "A person can be hypnotized against their will. Once a person has been hypnotized they can no longer resist it").
 
I agree with the OP. Trackless Step in Rakudai itself is not Mind Manipulation. It doesn't "control" the perception either it's just moving in a way the mind will not be able to register. It doesn't affect the mind or perception directly. So it can be classed as Hypnosis.
 
You still haven't stated what exactly Hypnosis is if the definition is wrong

I find it hard to believe that people who otherwise have obscenely good senses and awareness being affected by TS doesn't make it manipulation. Normal people don't have "rhythms" or whatever to be exploited, so the only explanation is that it is outright manipulating them to act as though they do. Ikki's info analysis is a blatant false equivalence because it is totally unrelated. I don't even get your other points tbh, because it sounds like meaningless ramblings.
 
Hypnosis can make it seem like someone is "out of it" or asleep, when in reality their consciousness is simply altered the same way it might be if they were zoning out or daydreaming.

Literally the same effect as Trackless Step:

"Ooh! Careful there, Kurogane! That was quite the narrow escape! She was reacting to Toudou's attacks with ease earlier, so what's the deal now?! She almost looked like she was daydreaming!"

You can also find the same thing ("Was i zoning out?!" in the anime episode).
 
Trackless Step is exploiting the parts of the mind and senses that aren't processing everything they perceive. Their brain doesn't recognise it as relevant information making it appear as if they had just zoned out for a moment because of their movement. Not because of a direct manipulation of senses which is what Perception Manipulation is.
 
Hl3 or bust said:
You still haven't stated what exactly Hypnosis is if the definition is wrong
I find it hard to believe that people who otherwise have obscenely good senses and awareness being affected by TS doesn't make it manipulation. Normal people don't have "rhythms" or whatever to be exploited, so the only explanation is that it is outright manipulating them to act as though they do. Ikki's info analysis is a blatant false equivalence because it is totally unrelated. I don't even get your other points tbh, because it sounds like meaningless ramblings.
Click to expand...
It is a way to trick the oponents senses through a series of movements, sounds, and other sensory imput that makes the targets mind more subsceptible to suggestions.

Except it is literally stated that they do, on the very quotes where Trackless Step is shown. And real world human's brains have a rythm that hypnosis exploits too, just not this massive, since they are more subdle stuff (like some sounds that the human ear doesn't even translate to the brain being able to make the muscles freeze up).
 
Stop saying trick like it means anything. You can say it all you want but it's still being forced on someone.

What? That is, at best, an in-universe mechanic that wouldn't work outside of it. So congrats, you just admitted to TS being useless outside of Rakudai. No, humans don't have rhythms like that and your example has nothing to do with rhythms.

I don't even know why i'm bothering because you people are more than content to change definitions to suit yourselves.
 
Okay

So from what I could gather, it is argued to not be Perception Manipulation because "it's not supernatural", except that's not actually a requirement for Perception Manipulation. If you want to say this is 100% natural and not supernatural in nature, you could just still list it as Perception Manipulation, or "non supernatural Perception Manipulation" if you really wanna stress that part for whatever reason
 
What do you mean "like it means anything"? Do you want me to use more verbose description like "causing the brain to go into a state of heightened learning where it is more willing to go through changes in perception and memory more easily, allowing the hypnotizer to recall or" seal" memories, teach people to have emotional reactions to different stimuli, etc."?

I don't really care about how it would work in a vs battle
 
You say it like it just completely objectively makes it not manipulation without you having to actually prove a damn thing.

Well, that's kinda important considering this website.
 
I agree with the OP. I take option 1 for Stella's speed since her speed indeed increases mid-battle, so it isn't FTL+ from the start.
 
Its a real world thing, so it's certainly not supernatural in the way it's done, it's supernatural in how effectively its done.

The whole biological vs "spiritual" mind manip.

Indexing comes first regardless of that. Making something a supernatural event when it's stated not to be, and is given an explanation, is not really something that can be done. The amount of verses where a character can predict hundreds of míves ahead with analytical precog despite it being impossible to know that from any movement in a person's body is immense, and you don't see people making those inapplicable to fights.

Several characters can talk others into killing themselves, or give up, or become their harem member, or your social influencing of choice in a few sentences, and that's damn impossible too. It's still not mind manipulation the way voldemort ripping your consciousness apart is.

Abilities are taken to unrealistic extremes all the time, it happens.
 
Ionliosite said:
I agree with the OP. I take option 1 for Stella's speed since her speed indeed increases mid-battle, so it isn't FTL+ from the start.
Click to expand...
It supposedly stayed at that after the battle, however.
 
It supposedly stayed at that after the battle, however.

Yes, but the battle in the OP is Ikki vs Stella, the last battle of that arc. So Stella would be FTL+ from the start on her next key, not that one.
 
Ionliosite said:
It supposedly stayed at that after the battle, however.
Click to expand...
Yes, but the battle in the OP is Ikki vs Stella, the last battle of that arc. So Stella would be FTL+ from the start on her next key, not that one.
Actually i believe the natural way of keeping a key is "at peak condition" of that key. So like the very end.
 
Well, this is fun ovo

Also, TS is not supernatural. It having supernatural like effects don't rly matter. It also isn't perception manip, supernatural or natural alike. He is doing something to himself, not the opponent. It affects their perception about as much as hiding does. "But it affects the mind" I hear ppl say. Well, it affects the mind about as much as someone getting a headache from a tough math problem or some fcked up optical illusion. The opponents brain not knowing what to do with the visual info it gets, is not Ikki mind maniping or anything like it. It's more like you not seeing your nose, because your brain thinks it's not very useful to see. Your nose doesn't have mind manip or perception manip, believe it or not. If I gad to give any ability for this, it'd be very, very, stupidly good stealth mastery. So good, your opponent doesn't see you, even when right in front of them.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Actually i believe the natural way of keeping a key is "at peak condition" of that key. So like the very end.
Click to expand...
Considering the scaling problems that would create Base Stella being FTL+ from the start, I totally think the first option in the OP is much more safe.
 
Bump

We have an agreement then?

What's the conclusion we decided on trackless step? There are 2 current options:

  • Stealth Mastery (Or not a power at all)
  • Hypnosis
 
Yeah

If it's not perception manip, then it's only stealth mastery at best or nothing at worst. Being able to make yourself be forgotten by the opponent's conscious mind and hide in their unconscious mind, if not perception manipulation for affecting their ability to perceive you, is either stealth mastery, or absolutely nothing because it's not a thing that exists throughout the rest of fiction
 
Trackless step users going into the person's unconciousness is related to their intelligence since they know where the person's unconsciousness are and how to avoid them with maneuvering. It might be already under Martial Arts.

If we consider it supernatural, then hypnosis might be the right one
 
MrDrProfessorPatricio said:
If we consider it supernatural, then hypnosis might be the right one
Click to expand...
Hypnosis isn't supernatural tho...

It's exagerated if you take it as that, same way as it's exagerated if you take it as stealth mastery.
 
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