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Small Rakudai Downgrade

The_real_cal_howard

The_real_cal_howard

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VS Battles
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FTL

It's not a wrong feat. It's just Rel+. We don't assume that light dodging is innately FTL, especially when the dodger in question was having a hard time dodging.

...literally nothing else changes.
 
...

It is "Rel+ likely SoL" doe. You're really not downgrading anything.

The FTL is for people who literally blitz her like ouma, or Ikki who is much faster than ouma who blitzes stella.

Not anything we haven't already taken into consideration.
 
I will have to disagree. While it can't be calced this is the feat:

The light in Mikoto's eyes instantly turned to magic.

Along her line of sight, sword-like pillars of ice burst out along the ground as they crossed the space between her and Stella, as though she intended to freeze it all.

ÒÇîOnce again, Tsuruya goes on the offensive, launching attack after attack of Satin Ice at Stella, who for her part is staying out of her vision! The Crimson Princess' mobility, too, is top-notch! Yet, why is she dodging this desperately? Satin Ice was easy meat for Empress Dress previously!ÒÇì

ÒÇîIt's...not the same as before. The technique itself is several times stronger. See, as far as I know, the Icy Sneer is only able to freeze a spherical space about 3 meters in diameter at the focal point of her vision. But right now, she is freezing everything in sight. The power of her Noble Art is now on a whole new level. That she had been hiding such an ace up her sleeve...shocking. A Noble Art like this might just be able to freeze the Crimson Princess' flames!ÒÇì

Even as Muroto spoke thus, the chance Mikoto had been waiting for arrived.

Stella had been dodging with swift steps, but she was hard-pressed to continue dodging a Noble Art that could reach lightspeed. The more she dodged desperately, the more her situational awareness waned, till she was hemmed in on either side by the walls of ice created by Satin Ice.

She had to completely get outside of her field of vision to not get frozen. That's a rather huge distance to cross comparative to the distance the light needs to cross (considering the field of view gets wider the further someone is). So the distance Stella need to cross is similar to that of light.
 
"Stella had been dodging with swift steps, but she was hard-pressed to continue dodging a Noble Art that could reach lightspeed."
 
The real cal howard said:
"Stella had been dodging with swift steps, but she was hard-pressed to continue dodging a Noble Art that could reach lightspeed."
Click to expand...
Yes, she was hard pressed to continue dodging a light speed beam.

Once again, Tsuruya goes on the offensive, launching attack after attack of Satin Ice at Stella, who for her part is staying out of her Vision!

See, as far as I know, the Icy Sneer is only able to freeze a spherical space about 3 meters in diameter at the focal point of her vision. But right now, she is freezing everything in sight.
 
Ciruno Fortes said:
Could reach lightspeed? It's not always lightspeed
Click to expand...
"Satin Ice!"

A glaring light wrapped in a frigid, cutting shroud shot forth from the monocle.

This magic's speciality was that its effect triggered instantly upon her focusing on a target. In other words, this magic travelled at what was effectively the speed of light.

Light is light speed.
 
Well im not sure. It wasn't just something that happened. It was something she did consistently throughout that fight.

Though no one upscales to mftl other than ikki. Who was so fast that people thought his shadow wasn't moving at all at first then realized it was just lagging behind. There would be no inconsistencies other than a certain speed statement but the author is really bad at those. So bad in fact in the following arc there is a speed statement that says "she crossed 100 metres in what was only 10 seconds to the world" and calls that "astounding speed". But no matter what kind of speed feat you take this statement would still be much lower as it's literally slower than peak human speed.

Other than that I don't believe there is anything pointing towards outlier.
 
Edelweiss (who'd get a pass due to being Edelweiss), Haboob, Nene, Iris, etc all upscale from this to MFTL tho.
 
Still bumping, btw. I'm really starting to think this feat is an outlier upon further thought. Again, the best feat other than this is Touka's lightning speed stuff, who Stella was (emphasis on was) below in speed. And Stella's not fodder now, but people are hundreds of times FTL when other than Stella's light dodge, the next best feat is 1400 times the speed of sound.
 
I also think its an outlier, for the same reason Cal mentioned. But to give more context, Ikki while in Ittou Shura was slightly slower than Raikiri which is just lightning speed, and Stella is only comparable (and not faster, she is a bit slower) while using Dragon Spirit. Base Stella being LS doesnt makes sense to me.

The only FTL feat that i see legit is Ikki's Oikage, and it was considered the epitome of swordmanship for its absurd speed. Also, Ikki's Oikage is just combat speed, not movement speed.
 
Looking further into the profile, Ikki being a stone wall is dumb. Ikki's defense stat is an F, and it's stated numerous times that Stella would fodderize his body if he screwed up his blocking. Heck, the reason for his defense is that she did mess him up but he got up. Krillin and Kid Gohan took blows from Vegeta and Frieza but got up despite being fodder to them. Does that make them stone walls? No. Ikki shouldn't be a Stone Wall at all.

Also his magic control is E. How on earth does he have better magic control than his sister, who's like an A?
 
The real cal howard said:
No. Ikki shouldn't be a Stone Wall at all.
Also his magic control is E. How on earth does he have better magic control than his sister, who's like an A?
Click to expand...
Yeah, kinda hard to say that when he took a full body blow from Dragon Spirit Stella and literally took less damage than she did from the same blow. Oh and he also tanked her strongest ability Katharterio Salamandra and stood back up (although it was not at full power, it should have still been far above anything else).

I don't know. Edelweiss states at some point that his magic control is better than Shizuku's. Can give the line later.
 
Dude, it's stated that base Stella would wreck his shit in one blow, and yet we're scaling him to what Drago Stella dishes out??
 
When talking about strife, Ikki's magic power control, which increased his original strengthening ability to several hundred times, had a precision equivalent even to the one of Shizuku.
 
The real cal howard said:
Dude, it's stated that base Stella would wreck his shit in one blow, and yet we're scaling him to what Drago Stella dishes out??
Click to expand...
What should we do then? It's really weird. It says his head would vanish but he tanks 2 of her most powerful blows. If you have any better ideas im all ears honestly.
 
Siegfried10 said:
I also think its an outlier, for the same reason Cal mentioned. But to give more context, Ikki while in Ittou Shura was slightly slower than Raikiri which is just lightning speed, and Stella is only comparable (and not faster, she is a bit slower) while using Dragon Spirit. Base Stella being LS doesnt makes sense to me.
Click to expand...
The problem is the statements don't live up to the feats. Base ikki was dodging raikiri and lightning easily. Stella was dodging light although with great effort. Ikki's oikage made ppl believe his shadow wasn't even moving at first.

Then we have stuff like Stella's 10m/s being called "astounding speed". It's not as much about outliers as much as the author just having no clue about what he's saying regarding the stats. Or similar to how 6-C ppl get harmed by bullets etc.
 
@Cal

What are the conclusions here?
 
@Ant. I think we should just scale Ikki's durability to his forms. It anything, it's less, as it's stated that his physical prowess>>>>>his defenses (one is an A, the other is an F).

@Earl. The Oikage stuff is just the poor man's afterimage (fornlack of a better term. Not saying it's not cool, as even my cold heart can admit it is). It's not FTL or anything above FTE, though I could be wrong. Consistency matters, and the consistency points to base characters being above lightning. As you said, Stella juking around light was incredibly difficult. The most consistent speed is lightning. The high end lightspeed is just as much as an outlier as Usain Bolt level Stella. Both low ends and high ends can be outliers.

The Shizuku comparison is...weird. I guess it's saying they have similar precision, which while it doesn't mean he's as smart as her, I could believe it means he has cellular level precision like her. Also it says equivalent, not superior.
 
What if the world full of people who are lightning dodgers or not much slower, their unit of time called a "second" is shorter?

I do see Cal's point, though, how often do they dodge lightning?
 
@ Cal

So treat both of his dura feats as outliers? I'll go with what majority decides i guess.

About speed. Stella did it with effort but she's the slowest of the top tiers. It's also not sth that happened once it happened for a long while throughout an entire fight. As for lightning only when against touka, but ikki dodging lightning was as casual as it can be. Even with a broken form, after stumbling and starting to fall over him dodging lightning (arguably return stroke) in cqc very likely.

The shizuku.... well, control is everything. Control needs iq, everything they do is a very complex process (i can show scan another time if needed can't right now). So you can't control on a cellular level without being capable of complex calculations. As for equality, yes but he gets a lot better by the end of that very volume, which would put him above.
 
I have already said before that Ikki's durability should not receive PS from Stella. Ouma pretty much broke his bones when Ikki failed to properly parry his attack (he blocked with his sword, but the strenght behind the attack was still too big). This was Ikki with Ittou Shura. There is also the fact that Ouma's body has been stated to be way above Ikki in terms of physical prowess, stated by Ikki himself, and Ouma got foderized by DS Stella. Ikki also got his arms broken in his fight against Sara's Mario Rosso, and that thing is not even on DS Stella's level. Ikki not dying from Stella's attack is probably just PIS, and if memory doesnt fail me he still got broken bones. In terms of physical abilities (Durability and AP) Ikki doesnt scale to powerhouses such as Stella or Ouma, while in base or Ittou Shura. I have also said that is a mistake to scale Ouma's Tenryuu Armor to his Fuujin Kekkai (the wind barrier that blocked Bahamut Howl) btw.

In regards to the mana control thing, its kind of irrelevantto discuss it as it doesnt really affect the scaling, but i dont see him as Shizuku's level. Shizuku's feats with Aoiro Rinne and Aoiro Sekai are way above anything Ikki has shown, it might be Edelweiss words but i dont agree with them. The E in magic control was before his training on Edelberg though, it has improved since those stats were released.

Ikki never dodge Raikiri easily, he needed Ittou Rasetsu for that. And in his rematch against Touka she never got to use Raikiri against him, Ikki actually made sure she didnt use it by blocking the scabbard with a coin so she couldnt prepare Raikiri. Other lightning techniques from Touka are not lightning speed, and her speed with Shippu Jinrai is below Ikki with Ittou Shura, so it isnt lightning speed either. I do agree with Oikage being FTL, for the body to surpass the speed of his shadow is indeed a FTL feat. But this speed is only combat speed and only with Oikage, and currently nobody scales to it.
 
As I said I can agree to the durability. Im fine with downgrading it.

Well stella also has something which is close to that of shizuku and ikki is above her. Besides shizuku looks more impressive by virtue of having magic and a system better than ikki's.

He did dodge lightning several times during the rematch. And touka herself said that raikiri could simply be dodged even in closer quarters. if i recall correctly she also used the one where she changes her direction quickly. May need to reread, but ikki is well beyond raikiri in speed at that point.
 
A mere slash would simply be dodged. However, even if he were to dodge Raikiri, her supersonic blade would hit Ikki with a blast through the air.

This is the quote, though cal you can also see the problems here. Calling flash of lightning "supersonic" in speed. This is the reason it's best to stick to feats.
 
The only technique that Touka has that is actually lightning speed is Raikiri, which she didnt use against Ikki in the rematch. I agree that Ikki is beyond Raikiri after learning Edelweiss swordmanship, but only in Ittou Shura, not base Ikki.
 
Siegfried10 said:
The only technique that Touka has that is actually lightning speed is Raikiri, which she didnt use against Ikki in the rematch. I agree that Ikki is beyond Raikiri after learning Edelweiss swordmanship, but only in Ittou Shura, not base Ikki.
Click to expand...
Touka can lunch actual lightning what do you mean her only lightning move is raikiri he dodged the lightning and and after the fight or at the end of the fight she herself stated that he could just dodge raikiri and that's why she do measures against it. He in base is very much above raikiri.

She can also move at lightning speeds physically and can do the same using takemikazuchi. Even her ability to do change the direction of her swings should be of lightning speed considering they were the same.
 
Sigurd Snake in The Eye said:
Doesn't supersonic just mean above Mach 1? Lightning is above it so it's still accurate.
Click to expand...
Not really that's like saying for lightning above human speed like yes it is above human speed that is not way to define it or Express how fast it is. Or like saying the moon is more than 2 m away from the earth.
 
I am not able to follow this discussion very well, as I have limited time available. Sorry. I have to unsubscribe due to time constraints. You can send me a message if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Siegfried10 said:
The only technique that Touka has that is actually lightning speed is Raikiri, which she didnt use against Ikki in the rematch. I agree that Ikki is beyond Raikiri after learning Edelweiss swordmanship, but only in Ittou Shura, not base Ikki.
Click to expand...
Touka can lunch actual lightning what do you mean her only lightning move is raikiri he dodged the lightning and and after the fight or at the end of the fight she herself stated that he could just dodge raikiri and that's why she do measures against it. He in base is very much above raikiri.
She can also move at lightning speeds physically and can do the same using takemikazuchi. Even her ability to do change the direction of her swings should be of lightning speed considering they were the same.
Click to expand...
Magical lightning isnt real lightning, you need to prove its real lightning to actually give it that speed. Raikiri is the only technique actually described as lightning speed, and Ittou Shura Ikki is slightly slower. Shippu Jinrai Touka being lightning speed is an incoherence, as she is slower than Ittou Shura Ikki (who is slower than lightning) and even Shizuku could deal with her speed. Raikiri was treated as an impresive technique due to it reaching lightning speed, which wouldnt make sense if all her lightning attacks reached that speed.

Im not on favor of treating any lightning Touka generates as lightning speed, as it contradicts whats has been shown on the novel.

Well, my last post for the day. Merry Christmas people.
 
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