Ragna Crimson Discussion Thread

[Arkenis]

Don't think the verse or most in it should be ftl or ftl+. At best Light speed and that's Ragna with his greatest attack.

So for starters, Ragna is requiring from himself an attack that can be released in a single moment and decides on Light Speed

0.000.0001 seconds is sub relativistic perception time, something Kamui couldn't react to.

Next the very obvious; it's stated his greatest attack was the speed of light.

After this Kamui is then astonished and outright states it's something he couldn't possibly imitate. Further on then says "I can't even possibly imagine how you brought this move into realization." It's pretty clear what the author wants here, it's pretty clear where the characters think they are in terms of speed themselves.

I think where Kamui and Ragna can scale is obviously mhs to mhs+ just going off of Kamui's base speed being mhs+ with him doing this

Mach 29,154.51895 or high into Sub Rel

The peak of sub rel being Mach 43,701.52

And of sub rel+ just gets even higher from there.

To show a difference in speed from where Kamui is at,

Speed of light Mach is 874,030
While Sub Rel+ Mach is 43,701.52

Being a 19x difference in speed.

Another thing to add is that Gilzea also says Ragna's striker could kill her

Can read this too

 

[azontr]

I already sent the images of Ragna being stated to be SOL.

Here is Kamui being stated to move at lightning speed.

Then here he is boasting about surpassing lightning speed.

Finally. Kamui is called the lightning God, it would only make sense that he generally moves at lightning speed.

It's called lighting speed because he fights using lightning. Not that he actually caps at lightning speed.

The feats contradict this anyway.

 

[Hunter0901]

It's called lighting speed because he fights using lightning. Not that he actually caps at lightning speed.

The feats contradict this anyway.

Completely disagree.

(Can't remember most of their names now).
But the other dragon said, "Show them how you can fly to them with your lightning fast speed."

1. He is describing Kamui's speed as lightning fast.

2. "It's called lightning speed because he fights using lightning", really doesn't make sense to me.

There is nothing indicating that they only say he is lightning speed because he uses lightning.

Why aren't they saying lightning speed because he is actually moving at that speed? It's a much simpler explanation.

3. I believe he is lightning speed before his last fight/transformation against Ragna, where he surpasses lightning speed, as said by himself.

How do they contradict themselves?

 

[Arkenis]

It's called lighting speed because he fights using lightning. Not that he actually caps at lightning speed.

The feats contradict this anyway.

It says lightning fast speed

 

[Arkenis]

But the other dragon said, "Show them how you can fly to them with your lightning fast speed."

Olto

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

I think both can exist at the same time. For the most part all the statements about Kamui arriving or travelling at Lightning speed are in reference to his base form rather than his partially dragonified form or his full dragonified form not even his Lightning God Form which makes sense since we also see him in the past to explicitly moving 100km in a split second

 

[azontr]

Kamui is mentioned to move at lightning speed in multiple instances, yes, guys, I realize that, I read Ragna Crimson to, the point is that that is never implied to be his cap.

 

[azontr]

I think both can exist at the same time. For the most part all the statements about Kamui arriving or travelling at Lightning speed are in reference to his base form rather than his partially dragonified form or his full dragonified form not even his Lightning God Form which makes sense since we also see him in the past to explicitly moving 100km in a split second

Kamui moving 100 kilometers in a split second is actually faster than lightning lol. It's mach 2915.4519, while the speed of lightning is 1282.

 

[Hunter0901]

Kamui moving 100 kilometers in a split second is actually faster than lightning lol. It's mach 2915.4519, while the speed of lightning is 1282.

This is using a millisecond for the time frame and is likely a high end.

In the first fight with Ragna and Kamui, we only see about a 0.2s~ difference in time between fairly consecutive timestamps. Using 0.0001 has to be high end.

All the other differences in time had major gaps of action without an updated time therefore less accurate to use.

Using this as the timestamp Kamui would be about 1.2x the speed of lightning which is very close, i.e. consistent with the narrative that says he is only/hardly surpassing lightning speed.

 

[Hunter0901]

Kamui is mentioned to move at lightning speed in multiple instances, yes, guys, I realize that, I read Ragna Crimson to, the point is that that is never implied to be his cap.

However it is implied that lights peed is Ragna's cap.

Kamui said Ragna's flash move is the sole attack to outspeed him.

Ragna's flash move is said to move at lightspeed.

So there is a cap for Ragna and Kamui should therefore scale below lightspeed.

 

[azontr]

This is using a millisecond for the time frame and is likely a high end.

In the first fight with Ragna and Kamui, we only see about a 0.2s~ difference in time between fairly consecutive timestamps. Using 0.0001 has to be high end.

All the other differences in time had major gaps of action without an updated time therefore less accurate to use.

Using this as the timestamp Kamui would be about 1.2x the speed of lightning which is very close, i.e. consistent with the narrative that says he is only/hardly surpassing lightning speed.

I didn't use 0.0001 for it. I used for 0.1, which is a split-second.

If I used 0.0001 it would literally be 3x the speed of light.

However it is implied that lights peed is Ragna's cap.

Kamui said Ragna's flash move is the sole attack to outspeed him.

Ragna's flash move is said to move at lightspeed.

So there is a cap for Ragna and Kamui should therefore scale below lightspeed.

A single statement does not contradict various other feats that are above lightning speed/light speed.

 

[azontr]

If we use anything higher than 0.1 that gets results even closer to or faster than the speed of light lol.

 

[Hunter0901]

I didn't use 0.0001 for it. I used for 0.1, which is a split-second.

If I used 0.0001 it would literally be 3x the speed of light.

A single statement does not contradict various other feats that are above lightning speed/light speed.

????

I joined the thread saying and showing that there are at least 2 statements. You acknowledged this. I then said there were more and showed them and now we're back to "A single statement doesn't contradict-"?

I've said many times that there are more than 1 statement though. There are 2 statements I'm aware of which put Ragna at SOL and 3 which put Kamui at lightning. I've already sent 2 for each of them.

The lightning speed statements come from Crimson, Zora and Kamui himself.

The SOL statements come from the narrative.

It is not only a single statement.

I have only seen 2 feats which makes them FTL and 1 of them is a calc.

There are at least 5 statements.

 

[Arkenis]

Yeah lets not base their speed off calcs and feats alone. If we have several statements about their speed that should be what we go with. Jjk had this same problem and finally we now scale the verse through whats stated, shown and whats consistent. Ftl is just not consistent and saying statements are contradicted just doesn’t make sense in narrative sense. the author is pretty clear on whar theyre trying to portray for the verse

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Again I don't see why both Kamui being Lightning speed and him being faster can't exist at the same time, I don't think they are mutually exclusive because it's dependent his form. Let use lay it out:

Lightning speed statements - The Vast majority are in reference to Base Form Kamui

Spoiler: Lightning Speed Statements

Crimsons being the most reliable source if info in the verse actually makes the statement about Kamui arriving at Lightning speed in reference to Base Form Kamui. Which we know is fact due to the literal visualization of his arrival given by the narrative

All the other statements for Lightning speed during this event are specifically about Kamui's arrival to the battlefield which we know from Crimsons own visualization is in reference to his base form.

Faster than Lightning Feat- Done casually in Partially dragonified form that isn't his base form

Spoiler: Faster than Lightning feats

Kamui has to transform into his Partially dragonified form to perform this feat so it won't scale to his base but instead that

Scaling issues- Kamui being Lightning speed alone in all his forms prior to his merge with the thunder claw just doesn't make any sense due to scaling:

Spoiler: Scaling issues with Lightning speed Kamui

Once Ragna gets healed enough and comes back stronger than his last fight with Kamui he effortlessly blitzes him even in his partially dragonified form

But after Kamui enters his Full Dragonification he straight up says he is faster than Ragna

So clearly there are increases in speed between these form which cannot happen if all of them are Lightning speed

Conclusion: Kamuis base form is Lightning speed while his partially dragonified form is higher and his full dragonified form is higher than that.

I'll look into the light speed and FTL stuff and get to that later.

 

[Arkenis]

Conclusion: Kamuis base form is Lightning speed while his partially dragonified form is higher and his full dragonified form is higher than that.

Yeah that’s fine the ftl stuff just isn’t consistent.

 

[Arkenis]

Hell Kamui could even be close to sub rel in his dragon form but ls or even ftl is literally the opposite of what the story tells us.

 

[Hunter0901]

I can agree to his base being lightning and his forms being above that. However it would be less than SOL as Kamui gets blitzed by SOL Ragna.

 

[Hunter0901]

What I don't understand is why we accept the lightning speed statements but not the SOL statements.

The SOL and lightning statements don't contradict. That is to say the narrative scaling is consistent so why not follow the author's intent?

I could understand using the feats and calcs if the statements were contradictory but they aren't.

 

[azontr]

I still disagree with yall mfs but it's not like I have a proper rebuttal so whatever.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Alright I've looked into the manga again to kinda get a grasp of the arguments for the Lightspeed statement and the FTL feat so I wanna talk about that now:

Conclusion: Kamuis base form is Lightning speed while his partially dragonified form is higher and his full dragonified form is higher than that.

First I want to clarify that when I wrote the following I wasn't really taking a stance on the FTL or Light speed arguments at all just the Lightning speed ones. I left the Partially dragonified and dragonified Kamui stats unspecified because a) moving forward the speed of kamui's partially dragonified form could be based of calcing the 100km in a slip second and b) The fully dragonified kamuis speed is unknown as of then. The main thing I want to say is that the vast majority of the Lightning statements aren't applicable against the FTL or Lightspeed stuff since they only specifically apply to Base Kamui and even the 100km in a split second only applies to Partially Dragonified Kamui(or below) while the only version of Kamui that can even be argued FTL using the FTL feat is his Fully Dragonified and his merged forms upwards.

Moving on to what's important I think what separate this from the recent JJK rework is that we have pretty much an equal amount of representations for each point:

1. Light speed and below Ragna/Kamui: Based on a single statement from the narrative
2. FTL and above Ragna/Kamui: Based on a single feat directly shown through an narrative timer

So what's important would be which one of the 2 is more accurate to apply

Spoiler: Light speed statement

Spoiler: FTL Feat

The Light speed statement is extremely clear and undeniable but has more than 1 issue mainly the fact that the given Counter/Time displayed makes little to no sense at all in relation to it at all and that it references the previous FTL feat and is called faster which is impossible if it was just Light speed.

The FTL feat is pretty clear and undeniable as it's a very clear countdown timer and ragna acts between the frames of 5 seconds and 4.9999999999 seconds(A Nanosecond) which would be FTL irrespective of what specifics you use to calc it since Ragna clearly moves more than 30cm(which is how far light can move in a nanosecond and the length of a standard school ruler).

Conclusion: I think using the FTL feat and scaling from that moving forward makes more sense due to how nearly everything surrounding the Light speed statement makes no sense(even the direct timer given for it). Any scaling afterwards would only apply forward for Ragna after the first fight with Kamui and only apply to Kamui's fully dragonified form and upwards

 

[azontr]

Based on a single feat directly shown through an narrative timer

Chimera has also dodged lightspeed attacks before but go off, King.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Chimera has also dodged lightspeed attacks before but go off, King.

I have heard of that but haven't looked into it. It's been a while since I read the manga so I have to go look into whatever I want to talk about.

What chapter is the chimera stuff?

 

[azontr]

She dodges the Borealis, which is a literal beam of light from the sun, to save Ragna after he was defeated in Chapter 15.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Ok I've looked into it, mainly chapter 8, 15 and 16 and yeah it seems legit.

The Sun Wall works by absorbing sunlight storing that light as "Sun Aura" then releases it back as sunlight( since it specifically says the sunlight is emitted).

Spoiler: Sun wall

The Light of Borealis works specifically by converting that barrier into a weapon and firing the light from a single point. It is Light inherently from its mechanic of being released sunlight itself and also because it is repeatedly called light by multiple people:

Spoiler: Light of Borealis

And Chimera reacts and moves from a maximum distance of 100m to save ragna after the light was fired

Spoiler: Chimera

Yeah it all seems pretty solid so a clear FTL feat from very early on from chimera

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

So I'm planning on creating a sandbox for the following characters:

• Ragna
• Crimson
• Leonica
• Starlia
• Kamui
• Nephilim
• Artemisia
• Gilzea

and later add the rest of the winged bloodline when I'm done with these followed by members of the silverware princess army to accelerating the process of getting an actual Ragna crimson verse addition on the way by basically getting mostly everything down here first before starting an actual addition thread on content revision.

Right now what's lacking is I think more people who know ragna crimson, verified calcs for various feats in the verse and general agreement on the Stats of the current Ragna crimson high tiers but I can ignore that for now to basically focus on getting down the general structure and ability additions for the characters listed above then move on to that.

This is the sandbox and currently I've only just done Ragna but I might get through this relatively fast since I started this all last night.

 

[azontr]

Damn bro your sandbox is way better than the one I have lmao. Let me know if you need any help.

 

[azontr]

Also, for stats, we have an accepted Low 7-C calculation.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Damn bro your sandbox is way better than the one I have lmao. Let me know if you need any help.

Yep I do in fact need help, mainly I don't really know if there are any other accepted calcs besides disaster throwers and also I'm prone to grammar mistakes so if you find any in my sandbox could you inform me.

Right now I'm about to start rendering the images I want to use for Crimsons then add his part to the sandbox.

Also, for stats, we have an accepted Low 7-C calculation.

Oh damn thanks for that since objects imbued with Ragnas silver aura could freeze throwers tornado since like chapter 7 that should be a pretty good starting point for the stats section until we get more stuff calced and looked over

 

[azontr]

Well, first off here, are some things I disagree with, outside of grammar mistakes which I'll fix individually:

• Ragna's Precognition should be Analytical Prediction, as he's not peering through time to see the future, but is instead simply doing natural predictions on how his Silver Aura shatters Dragons.
• Pseudo-Flight should be full-on flight in Base
• Silver Comet Ragna shouldn't have regeneration negation on the High level, since Kamui hasn't been shown to regenerate from something like electrons.
• Silver Come Ragna also shouldn't have Existence Erasure, it's looks more like deconstruction since pieces of Kamui could still be seen.

Also, the keys should be split up better, since Base Ragna has a lot of abilities he shouldn't have. It should be something like "Royal Capital Arc", then "War Arc", then "With Silver Comet", or something akin to that.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Ragna's Precognition should be Analytical Prediction, as he's not peering through time to see the future, but is instead simply doing natural predictions on how his Silver Aura shatters Dragons.

Great I originally put analytical prediction while editing but couldn't get the link to a page for that so I just settled on precognition though I'll try again

Pseudo-Flight should be full-on flight in Base

Sure though until he gets the silver comet it seems more like he'd taking huge lunges and strides rather than flying

Silver Comet Ragna shouldn't have regeneration negation on the High level, since Kamui hasn't been shown to regenerate from something like electrons

I thought that was how that kind of elemental body was handled since that seems to be the case throughout the wiki, I generally looked through the wiki for similar elemental body examples without express statements of coming back from electrons/Ions etc and it seems that High is accepted for that so I used them for reference(Eg. Enel from one piece or Namaah from BC) though if there's other reasons those are High I can change Kamuis to low-high(for having superior regeneration to Orthozora who would have regenerated from blood but ran out of stamina and was stabbed)

Silver Come Ragna also shouldn't have Existence Erasure, it's looks more like deconstruction since pieces of Kamui could still be seen.

Yeah your right there are pieces there left behind

Also, the keys should be split up better, since Base Ragna has a lot of abilities he shouldn't have. It should be something like "Royal Capital Arc", then "War Arc", then "With Silver Comet", or something akin to that.

Sure I'll work on splitting the keys between arcs

• Royal Capital Arc would be anything that happens between the first chapter and when the war starts (Chapters 1-30)
• War Arc would be from the start of the war till the moment Ragna uses the silver comet (Chapters 31-47.1)
• Silver comet is just that form

 

[azontr]

Sure though until he gets the silver comet it seems more like he'd taking huge lunges and strides rather than flying

Fair but he's shown to be suspended in the air multiple times so it makes more sense that he's just flying with extreme force than simply propelling himself through the air.

I thought that was how that kind of elemental body was handled since that seems to be the case throughout the wiki, I generally looked through the wiki for similar elemental body examples without express statements of coming back from electrons/Ions etc and it seems that High is accepted for that so I used them for reference(Eg. Enel from one piece or Namaah from BC) though if there's other reasons those are High I can change Kamuis to low-high(for having superior regeneration to Orthozora who would have regenerated from blood but ran out of stamina and was stabbed)

I guess that makes sense, I thought you needed express statements of having come back from elementary particles, but if that's not necessary than Ragna's regen neg is fine to stay.

 

[azontr]

Also, if you want, I can just split the keys for you right now since I have the time, if you'll let me edit your sandbox.

 

[Arkenis]

Possible Causality Manipulation Nullification (Stated by Gilzea that his twin dragon hunting flash could kill her)

This is just due to speed I think, it's something Gilzea brings up that his LS slash is capable of hitting her and same with Kamui as well.

 

[azontr]

Possible Causality Manipulation Nullification (Stated by Gilzea that his twin dragon hunting flash could kill her)

This is just due to speed I think, it's something Gilzea brings up that his LS slash is capable of hitting her and same with Kamui as well.

No? Speed is irrelevant in this case, as even when Kamui was faster than Gilzea, he was still cut because of her Causality Manipulation, so Ragna would have to nullify her Severing Ability all-together for him to kill her.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Also, if you want, I can just split the keys for you right now since I have the time, if you'll let me edit your sandbox.

Yeah that would be great. Thanks for the help

 

[Arkenis]

No? Speed is irrelevant in this case, as even when Kamui was faster than Gilzea, he was still cut because of her Causality Manipulation, so Ragna would have to nullify her Severing Ability all-together for him to kill her.

After Ragna does his ls slash, Gilzea says its capable of killing her. It’s obvious whats needed to beat Gilzea and its speed.

 

[azontr]

It’s obvious whats needed to beat Gilzea and its speed.

And yet somebody faster than her and who had the initiative of attack was still defeated by her. Actually read.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Yeah its clearly not speed... The whole point and use of her causality manipulation which we have seen so far is circumventing a speed advantage.

Kamui moved faster than her and attacked first but the sword which specifically moved slower and after him still hit him first and while Gilzea ended up not being hit at all to which Kamui deduces that she's changed the process(aka Order) in which she slashes and she replies that anything that attacks her will be cut down so the process(in this case order) in which that happens is irrelevant to her. She can essentially passively change the order in which events happen retroactively so she always strikes first and avoid getting hit.

 

[azontr]

Welp, I finally was able to reformat Ragna's PnA properly. Take a look at it. Also added some references to what I could reference.