[R1M3] FC/OC Low 7-B Tournament: Kai vs Cinner

[TheMassivlyUnkn0wn]

Tournament Hub
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Two fighters stand on opposite sides of the open field, the digital world rogue, Kai and the supreme stickfigure duelest, Cinner.

Rules are stated in the tournament hub, so check those.

Kai:
(Baseline, 1 Megaton of TNT)

Cinner:
(4.19 Megatons of TNT)

Inconclusive:

 

[MintyBoi1]

Ok so, Cinner wouldn’t be too hostile off the bat especially given this is a tournament so he’d say something like “I’m ready for this” and get into defensive stance with his staff

 

[MintyBoi1]

Wait actually 50 meters is really far he’s gonna need to approach, probably extending his staff and pushing himself off it

 

[DMUA]

Was bedridden all of yesterday, so sorry for a late response

50 meters is more than crossable by Sonic Leap or Trickster Style, so they'd be losing that advantage pretty fast. If Cinner hesitates, that advantage is going to be gunned down pretty immediately, which could be solidified even further if Kai nails a Snake Bite and disarms his weapon, though that seems pretty unlikely with the gap in lifting strength

It's safe to say that Cinner is probably stronger but Kai definitely isn't outside of their ballpark with how much they scale above a 900 kiloton feat and I don't think Cinner has an answer for stuff like Fairy Edge (which gives an entire cast of people with enhanced senses trouble with even perceiving it due to it's impossible motions) or Phantom Rave, which is intangible and outright negates durability for a potential instantly lethal wound

 

[MintyBoi1]

Was bedridden all of yesterday, so sorry for a late response

50 meters is more than crossable by Sonic Leap or Trickster Style, so they'd be losing that advantage pretty fast. If Cinner hesitates, that advantage is going to be gunned down pretty immediately, which could be solidified even further if Kai nails a Snake Bite and disarms his weapon, though that seems pretty unlikely with the gap in lifting strength

It's safe to say that Cinner is probably stronger but Kai definitely isn't outside of their ballpark with how much they scale above a 900 kiloton feat and I don't think Cinner has an answer for stuff like Fairy Edge (which gives an entire cast of people with enhanced senses trouble with even perceiving it due to it's impossible motions) or Phantom Rave, which is intangible and outright negates durability for a potential instantly lethal wound

ok so Cinner uses a Strong Leap while Kai uses Sonic Leap and eventually they meet in the middle. From there he’d go for a crush to pin her from the air before he lands.

 

[MintyBoi1]

As for Fairy Edge, Cinner’s perception is pretty good granted he figured out an invisible ability so there is a chance he gets his forcefield activated which lasts 5 seconds and can take 5 hits before disappearing completely. Phantom Rave would be a definite problem so his best hopes would be attempting to dodge with his superior acrobatic ability or interrupting with his own attack like Shield Piercer which is a strong charge or Lightning Breaker where he attacks twice from the air.

 

[DMUA]

Admittedly I didn't write acrobatics onto the page (since back when I made them I didn't really consider it that much of a power) but that's definitely something they have in spades, if not to a greater degree. I can't think of any like, outright absurd feats off the top of my head but level 1 stats are supposed to generally exceed what normal humans are capable of and Kai has agility as one of her primer stats at level... I think it cut off around 100 or so? Either way, I don't think Cinner's beating her out in that respect to a degree that it's just a non-factor.

Though, another big thing I'm realizing I forgot to open with is the actual degree of Sword Skill's amps, which I remember going over outright speedblitz material? I don't remember how high end Kai was with Magic Skill, but I remember most people having it at over 200 by the time the series ended, which would give a +20 modifier to attack on a d20 system. Pure Form might make that a bit more manageable, but it does have a limited duration and it'd more make it possible to dodge something Kai can regularly dish out (especially accounting for how she can swing her sword five times as fast with swordmaster active, so it's questionable if they can generally overwhelm them outright)

So with that in mind, "figuring out" an invisible ability isn't quite the same as figuring out trajectory and dodging it while it's going fast enough to just bar you from reacting on that alone, so

 

[MintyBoi1]

Kai is sounding tough but Cinner has gone even with the likes of High-Flyer who was able to completely overwhelm Streak who had comparable speed to him just with the erratic movement granted from his grapple hook, he is constantly pulling little maneuvers such as flips and rolls in a fight with no damage plus Lightning Breaker (somersault to slam while staying midair) so I don’t think its too off to say he’s far above standard human as well. The gap in acrobatics/finesse shouldn’t be too large for any difference to be made at all in reducing damage from a combo. There’s also the fact Phantom is once a day and Fairy plus other moves have over 30 seconds of cooldown.

Still, Cinner’s best bet here would be assaulting from the air which is one of his main strategies regardless. Another thing he would try is taking pieces of the ground and turning them into projectiles, opening for further ground and aerial attacks.

 

[DMUA]

Even with the cooldown they have a pretty wide arsenal of options to cycle through (a few of which just don't have cooldown, and helm breaker in particular could abruptly knock them out of the air for a stun into another move, possibly save Phantom Rave for that moment to just outright end the fight), so them taking it to the air might help a little bit, but not enough to really knock out a lot of the danger Kai could throw at him

Keep in mind it's not just acrobatics vs acrobatics, but there's also the really high amp whenever they're using a sword skill. The pressure's going to be pretty constant, and Kai's body doesn't really get worn down by injury in same sense that Cinner's body does, so each taking stray hits leverages that slowly to her favor as well (Which, also keep in mind that sword skills enhance AP but it's less notable than the speed part since it's exclusively used against people that are extremely difficult to one-shot regardless, so the best I'd say is that it would do pretty gnarly damage on a clean hit)

 

[MintyBoi1]

I’m not sure if stun functions the same as paralysis inducement, but if it does Cinner has broken that before, he could make spacing or counter with a crush before the huge hit comes.

As for tradings blows, Cinner still has his extreme heat granted while Lifeline is extended he can use if he wants which goes above the fire Kai can resist. It would be a lot different there than pure blunt force and may inflict Burn. Considering he can constantly do that every 5 seconds while he has the energy, chip damage could take a hold. And if their weapons clash or Kai is forced to block a move like Shield Piercer, there may be a chance Kai’s sword is damaged as Carbon Steel (assuming here) has a melting point of 2500-2800 F while Cinner caps at 3000.

If Cinner maintains his range advantage and pokes, he could stack enough damage for a finisher before being beaten himself.

 

[Froggytron]

Bump

 

[DMUA]

Stun's a distinct thing, Paralysis is total muscle shutdown and Stun just prevents actions by making someone dizzy or something like that

3000 Fahrenheit isn't really that impressive when we're talking about Low 7-B combat, or even by itself. That translates to 1648 degrees Celsius, and Kai way upscales from a conventional 1200 degrees flame. Not to mention the energy by itself being 9-B, along with the fact her weapon is a super saught after artifact in a world loaded with supermaterials that go way past steel's limitations, since that was the material primarily used at Floor 1, which got outscaled by the end of 2 and repeat the process until they ended at like, 14 if I remember right? Admittedly that fudges my earlier number of ending at level 100 since I remember a hardcap being set at 20 past floor number×10, but either way

They just aren't going to maintain a range advantage when Kai is fully capable of crossing kilometers on a whim and attack with speed amps good enough to blitz. Even if he keeps a stick between him and her, she's also got death dancer, which lets her counterattack with no real penalty provided she's fast enough to dodge an attack (which, granted, as it's been written on the page it's just game mechanics more than something that properly translates to a fight but I can't think of the top of my head how counters were described outside of being whiff punishes)

 

[Froggytron]

Damn this match is so detailed, I can't even keep up with it :,D

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Kai starts out significantly weaker but can make up for that with sword skills. In terms of mobility I think she's got a somewhat noticeable advantage. Stun is a good advantage and I think DMUA presents valid arguments for her being less-affected by heat. I think Cinner's stated strategy of attempting to pin down Kai works in Kai's favor since her movement makes it particularly difficult to actually do that.

Cinner opens with a considerable AP advantage and can still keep up with movement. Fighting defensively is probably more to his advantage and would allow him to better take advantage of Kai's movements, maybe allowing him to get that pin down mentioned previously- if this happens then I think Cinner absolutely would win.

Some things I don't know: exactly how much stat amp comes from sword skills, and which of Cinner's stated strategies are more likely (I'm taking them as a 50:50 for now). In the event of one, I feel Cinner loses, and in the other, I feel Cinner probably wins. However, I could more easily see Kai winning in the situation that favors Cinner than I could see Cinner winning in the situation that favors Kai, even in spite of the significant AP advantage.

Therefore, I vote Kai.

 

[DMUA]

Side note: Unlike Gergy who had to be dramatically depowered to go down to Low 7-B, Kai still has the 2x multiplier from Sword Saint so so she's way above 1.8 megatons rather than the 900 kilotons I initially figured

Also, I mentioned the degree of sword skill amps a bit earlier, by EOS pretty much everyone had over 200 Magic skill, which gave a +20 modifier boost on a D20 system and made it outright impossible for an equal opponent to block or dodge outside of just luck (rolling a 20 or the opponent rolling a 1)

 

[Froggytron]

Can supreme stick figure duelist counter all of this?

 

[MintyBoi1]

Cinner’s best bet here is proper use of forcefields as though those take focus to activate, that’s still up to 5 hits taken for him
(he can move and attack while using them) added with pokes/special moves like Lightning Breaker and Shield Piercer until he gets the opportunity to ground and bombard her.

I also think it’s worth clarifying if Kai’s durability gets amped or if it’s at a constant of 1.8 Megatons as while she can eat lethal blows better that’s still a difference in how much HP she loses per hit. And while he can’t exactly lighten damage taken, Cinner can hit his pressure points to remove pain (likely while in a field) as a way to match with Kai’s damage resistance and clear his head to get that damage in.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Do the forcefields block exactly 5 hits? Are there multiple? I consider them a fairly major point so if they have unique mechanics, I think it relevant to sort that out.

I'm not sure how relevant pressure points would actually be but I'll defer to DMUA on that point.

 

[MintyBoi1]

It’s one big circular field around him and it blocks 5 as long as it’s constantly attacked, otherwise it’ll disappear until restored which takes a good 1-2 seconds. He can also constantly restore it but that makes it shrink as if it were being hit. Ingame there’s no real cooldown so let’s say 5 seconds after it’s entirely gone like him extending the staff.

 

[DMUA]

Durability in SAO Tabletop gets kinda funky for non tanks just because it's a lot more reliant on the HP pool than the actual ability to endure damage. Like, Kai can take up to 7-B hits, but a Low 7-B can still cause them some harm and even a 8-A if I remember the numbers right

Him removing his sense of pain is actually probably a net disadvantage for him, SAO already has the inherent pain inhibitor (another thing I missed out on putting on the pages...) So plenty of the opponents she's fought to begin with already just don't feel the right amount of pain from her hits, but they also have the abnormal physiology that lets them afford solid attacks to what would be vital areas. Pressure points similarly wouldn't work if it's acupuncture type stuff since they don't technically have organs, though I do remember there being a mechanic for hitting weak points on people's bodies and particularly their armor, not that it's relevant in this specific case

The forcefields are big but the specific requirement of focus is going to be mentally draining as things progress, and Kai can outright apply that much pressure via using swordmaster to throw out exactly 5 hits and throw out a Sword Skill right after

 

[MintyBoi1]

So even total desperation doesn’t work. I’ll have to give Kai this.

 

[Froggytron]

Seems like the fight is over, gonna vote Kai FRA to make 3 votes