[R1M8] Cinner vs Ako (Cosmic Knight) [GRACE]

[MintyBoi1]

Ako’s feat is still better, since Vacteria has better extrasensory and a way more varied attack pattern (claws, wand, spikes, summons) on top of it, and Ako could still defend, and didn’t even necessarily need bubble grenade spam, since he fought with his other forms mostly. All Cinner has is lifeline, and although he’s very skilled and smart, it’s an easy method of attacking thwt Ako is more than able to counter

Either side of Check landing will easily overwhelm High-Low regen, but with an extension, he could defend it I guess. But the force of Check crunching steel spikes into lifeline could damage it, maybe bending it into a weird shape.

Valid, but it’s like Bruce Lee says, I fear not the man who practiced 10000 kicks, but the man who practiced one kick 10000 times. Cinner is a very impromptu fighter, throwing in weaves and tricks depending on who he’s up against.

I think Lifeline could defend against check without a hitch, it’s taken numerous strikes from blades before and since it scales to Cinner’s LS, crushing force of the spikes wouldn’t damage it much.

Ako isn’t gonna just fight blindly while Cinner tries to take his stamina, Ako knows his own weaknesses very well. He can use Bubble and continuously go to siphon energy. Eventually, he should find powerlines to give himself an excess, giving him a further boost at attack, speed, and defense.

But with the extreme 15000 degree heat Cinner has, even the little bit it takes to notice that Ako is gaining energy won’t be enough to prevent Ako from a small surplus. All of his forms will have raised AP, durability, and speed for a little bit.

The thing with Bubble is that he’s combining its defense with his offense. By switching to Bubble for a split second and instantly shooting out a hundred or so shield grenades, then switching off to a new form in the split second after, Ako can use shields while attacking to nullify Cinner’s efforts.

Ako mostly just transforms whenever, and since he doesn’t switch every time, Cinner may have a harder time predicting what’s he’s gonna do.

Cinner wouldn’t be able to break through Cosmic Bubble even if he was bloodlusted, since that shield is able to take attacks even from enemies a tier stronger than Ako. Holding that up for 25 seconds after Cinner is knocked out from anesthetic wouldn’t be hard for him at all

Ako getting more stat amps will be rough, but the AP gap starts rather small so it’d have to rise exponentially for Ako to really benefit aside from stamina.

For swapping between Bubble, just how many times can Ako do this before his aforementioned weakness comes into play? Especially since Cinner will be fighting back with his all, he’s dodged a small level of Danmaku with things like waves of ice spikes, bullet fire, energy blasts big and small, sniper rifles, etc.

Sounds like the anesthetic is nearly a guaranteed victory granted it lands. Still, Cinner has ESP to feel Ako’s bike form emitting something and extension to distance

 

[Froggytron]

Ako mostly just transforms whenever, and since he doesn’t switch every time, Cinner may have a harder time predicting what’s he’s gonna do.

Won't Ako's constant transformations tire him out? Can't Cinner abuse it somehow?

 

[MintyBoi1]

For speed, Ako has multiple forms that are faster, including Blitz which is much faster. If Cinner gets close, Ako can use Blitz and catch Cinner before chopping him on a switch to Gale.

I'm not sure about IQ, I'm assuming it's fighting IQ because Ako should have an IQ in or near the 200's

For skill, Ako is a master of all of his different forms at once, and even though Cinner has very good acrobatics, that's not a clear cut advantage

For weapons, Ako has a way more varied attack and about a hundred different things he can do in a span of 5 seconds

Not entirely sure about endurance either, since Ako can keep fighting even if he's nearly falling apart

Ako does have forms that are faster but Tremor is slower than his base unless I’m wrong about that. Blitz and Gale have speed but also counters like Cinner’s electric/paralysis resistance and extension/Lightning Breaker.

IQ was kinda on a whim, both are gifted but I think what’s on profiles makes Cinner more impressive. Ako is listed as skilled in different fields and a marine biologist while Cinner has in depth martial arts knowledge and thermodynamics which includes many complex calculations. Ako should have that possibly Genius removed if he’s really in the 200’s.

Ako does have great use of his forms, but Cinner also has intense mastery of Lifeline and acrobatic skill like mentioned. I will say the gap isn’t so large it’s overwhelming, but Cinner seems more flexible and traditionally skilled whereas Ako only gets Martial Arts with a specific form. And yeah he has variations but some are weaker against Cinner than others. It’s really about matchups.

That is a better endurance than I thought for Ako, Cinner can also say the same fighting with cut open bones/organs and after taking multiple stab wounds.

 

[MintyBoi1]

I still don't see Cinner with any way to reliably approach Ako, given that he can still just use Check again and his transformation causes damage on its own. Bubble's shields also block Cinner off, since it takes many attacks to break one Shield Grenade Barrier, and there will be a couple hundred inn play at any given time

Maneuvers, acrobatics, and ESP will have to carry Cinner along it seems. Check has a clearly defined counter which is good, plus Cinner could always climb up another building to escape. The transformation damage seems hellish but standard Danmaku stuff. And Cinner can effectively do many attacks in one with an extension continuously pushing. But yeah, if there’s hundreds, he’ll really have to figure a way around that.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

For swapping between Bubble, just how many times can Ako do this before his aforementioned weakness comes into play? Especially since Cinner will be fighting back with his all, he’s dodged a small level of Danmaku with things like waves of ice spikes, bullet fire, energy blasts big and small, sniper rifles, etc.

Ako can do it plenty with all the sources around, but even without sources he can still do this for a while, and it's a bit easier if he isn't swapping between all the different forms. If he keeps going back to Bubble from another form, it's not as bad, but nothing stops him from walling Cinner completely with Cosmic Bubble while he feasts on all the sources inside his bubble range. With that said, I remembered Ako's Cosmic Bubble can encompass an entire city of range, which, if he wanted to, means that Ako could feast on every source in the city while Cinner has to wait outside, giving Ako a massive advantage in everything. Holding that shield for a while will be a detriment to Ako (as stated in profile), but with all the energy he's raking in in the meantime, that weakness won't mean miuch.

Won't Ako's constant transformations tire him out? Can't Cinner abuse it somehow?

Ako will simply remain in Bubble if his stamina is down that much. As long as he doesn't transform again, if he's dead tired (would take hours for this), he can use the bubbles and go get energy (Lower stamina does make it slower, but as I said before, Ako doesn't seem that tired until he's totally drained). Once again, the massive Cosmic Bubble gives Ako the opportunity to sap every source in the city, and because it can't be broke by Cinner's AP, it's a big wincon for Ako. With a city worth of powerlines, Ako's speed should be a blitz level in any of his forms and his AP skyrocketed

 

[Javenplayz253]

Bro This Debate Is TAKING SO LONNNGGG! (I'm Not Mad or Anything) (But Then Again Me And Froggy Were Debating About Javen And Fu Android so Eh.)

 

[MintyBoi1]

Ako can do it plenty with all the sources around, but even without sources he can still do this for a while, and it's a bit easier if he isn't swapping between all the different forms. If he keeps going back to Bubble from another form, it's not as bad, but nothing stops him from walling Cinner completely with Cosmic Bubble while he feasts on all the sources inside his bubble range. With that said, I remembered Ako's Cosmic Bubble can encompass an entire city of range, which, if he wanted to, means that Ako could feast on every source in the city while Cinner has to wait outside, giving Ako a massive advantage in everything. Holding that shield for a while will be a detriment to Ako (as stated in profile), but with all the energy he's raking in in the meantime, that weakness won't mean miuch.


Ako will simply remain in Bubble if his stamina is down that much. As long as he doesn't transform again, if he's dead tired (would take hours for this), he can use the bubbles and go get energy (Lower stamina does make it slower, but as I said before, Ako doesn't seem that tired until he's totally drained). Once again, the massive Cosmic Bubble gives Ako the opportunity to sap every source in the city, and because it can't be broke by Cinner's AP, it's a big wincon for Ako. With a city worth of powerlines, Ako's speed should be a blitz level in any of his forms and his AP skyrocketed

Is there any chance Cinner could diffuse or get through a portion of the plasma with Non Phys and resistance to heat/electricity and catch Ako before he gets his amps? If not, Cinner would have to last until Ako’s being in pain gives him a chance to fight back and end things. He has options for distancing but with blitzing speeds that could be very very hard to pull off. Though, it could also be good for Cinner since he could recover strength and regen any injuries gained over the course of the battle. Supernatural Willpower, complete recovery, and dispelling pain could let Cinner last.

Also, how in character is it for Ako to do this against a single person with no civilians around or monsters to fight? It’s sounding a lot like a last resort which is that’s the case, Cinner would likely execute his win cons before it gets to that point.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Is there any chance Cinner could diffuse or get through a portion of the plasma with Non Phys and resistance to heat/electricity and catch Ako before he gets his amps? If not, Cinner would have to last until Ako’s being in pain gives him a chance to fight back and end things. He has options for distancing but with blitzing speeds that could be very very hard to pull off. Though, it could also be good for Cinner since he could recover strength and regen any injuries gained over the course of the battle. Supernatural Willpower, complete recovery, and dispelling pain could let Cinner last.

Bubble isn't something that can be busted through via resistance or will power or non-physical. Maybe he can do that for the Shield Grenades, but Cosmic Bubble is a massive dome forcefield which can only be pierced via attacking it. Bubble can defend attacks even from someone a tier above Ako (taking 5-C attacks in a later arc when Ako is at 6-A), and because Bubble is the exact same now as it is then, Cinner woiuld need a 7-A power or attack to stop Ako from doing this strategy, and he simply doesn't have it. Cinner will get at least a couple minutes of recovery though, since Ako still needs to actively run around and get all the sources, but he'll get faster and faster the more he gets. He may also just go for powerlines only which further reduces the time it takes to get the energy, and also leaves all the cars around for Ako to sap if Cinner manages to somehow last long enough for Ako to consider it

Also, how in character is it for Ako to do this against a single person with no civilians around or monsters to fight? It’s sounding a lot like a last resort which is that’s the case, Cinner would likely execute his win cons before it gets to that point.

Without civilians or Monsters, Ako's only concern is Cinner. This Ako isn't nearly as laid back as he is in future arcs, so now would be one of those times he uses his inner Drive Knight in order to win. The best thing for Ako to do, tactically speaking, would be to use Cosmic Bubble and overload on energy, since Cinner has clearly shown that he can hang with Ako and even potentially defeat him otherwise, so it is in character for Ako to pull this out.

If not, Cinner would have to last until Ako’s being in pain gives him a chance to fight back and end things. He has options for distancing but with blitzing speeds that could be very very hard to pull off.

Yes, and all of Ako's forms can blitz with this kind of energy, even the slow Tremor will be too fast for Cinner to properly react to. He'd have to be carried by ESP, but Ako isn't just gonna let him stall out his energy. With blitzing speed and multiplied AP, Ako should be able to use multiple forms around the same instant and defeat Cinner with some combo of them all, most likely involving Frost or Gale. Because of Tremor being able to blitz, the extra speed of gale and Blitz make it that much more unmatchable. Ako basically will have the opportunity to do whatever he wants for a while, and he ha smany didfferent combo's of moves to finish the fight with, since a speed blitz means that Cinner basically can't react. Cinner won't be able to use LS advantage either because Ako is simply too fast now for him to grab.

 

[MintyBoi1]

Well hold on, 7-A goes from 100 megatons to 1000, just how strong is this shield? Cinner isn’t likely to just stand back so he could potentially bust through with a plethora of attacks towards the shield. He just needs to break a human sized portion to get in. Ako has to traverse a whole cityscape so Cinner could reasonably get this done in the scenario where Ako blocks himself off. There’s also the pain Ako will be succumbing to the whole time while Cinner will be getting better which could toss things in Cinner’s favor on this desperation move.

 

[Froggytron]

Off-topic (but still to the fight), was the fact of Ako's AP being maximally 60 Megatons mentioned? His AP varies between 5.3527493308 Megatons (the absolute minimum) to a maximum of 60 Megatons. I take it as only his top-tier attacks are 60 Megatons, while other attacks should have less AP, some likely very lower than Cinner's Pure Form AP.

AP: Ako
LS: Cinner
Speed: Depends
Durability: Ako
IQ: Cinner
BIQ: Cinner
Skill: Cinner
Experience: Cinner
Abilities: Ako
Hax: Ako
Agility: Cinner
Regen: Cinner
Weapons: Depends
Range: Ako
Stamina: Ako
Endurance: Cinner

If 60 Megatons is his full power, he should exhaust his strength sooner than Cinner (which can hold his Pure Form for multiple hours, maybe even days). Based on this I would say Cinner's stamina is also greater and the AP may depend. Also, Ako may not use all of his arsenal, as some techniques/abilities may go way under Cinner in stats.

 

[Javenplayz253]

I Need A Quick Rundown!

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Well hold on, 7-A goes from 100 megatons to 1000, just how strong is this shield?

Strong enough for 60 megaton Vacteria attacks to have no dent, so I can't see Cinner being able to break through at any point regardless of what he does. He doesn't have stat amps of his own and caps out at not even 30 megatons, making the shield at the barest minimum around 3.5 times stronger than Cinner's best, and the shield isn't baseline either. It took significantly higher effort for vacteria to pressure the barrier at all.

Ako has to traverse a whole cityscape so Cinner could reasonably get this done in the scenario where Ako blocks himself off. There’s also the pain Ako will be succumbing to the whole time while Cinner will be getting better which could toss things in Cinner’s favor on this desperation move.

He doesn't need it all to be around blitz territory, and I think this assumes Ako is just gonna let himself succumb to his own maneuver. He can get the energy he needs while only feeling minimal pain, and it's more like strain than actual damage happening to him anyway. Again, he knows his own weakness, and since Cosmic Bubble is usually reserved for allowing friends recovery or planning time, it;'s not like it would change the tide in such an extreme way after just a couple of minutes. It's not something he can have perpetually active, but it's not like it's something he needs to dedicate everything too just to hold. He should be able to hold the bubble just fine for a minimum of five minutes before he enters a territory where he's actually being detrimentally dangerous to his well-being, which is more than enough time to zip around and gain all that energy.

And don't forget that the speed of Check is multiplied as well, and it was already too fast for Cinner to react to without ESP. After Ako downs the barrier, he can use far superior speed and double blitz Cinner with Check, which will pretty much spawn already stabbing him at these speeds.

If 60 Megatons is his full power, he should exhaust his strength sooner than Cinner (which can hold his Pure Form for multiple hours, maybe even days). Based on this I would say Cinner's stamina is also greater and the AP may depend. Also, Ako may not use all of his arsenal, as some techniques/abilities may go way under Cinner in stats.

This problem is also solved with powerlines, as Ako's everything is multiplied, which will make all of his attacks at baseline 60 megatons, and his other moves far stronger. Besides, things like Gale would hurt Cinner anyway via plasma attacks. Ako's stamina with all of this energy should be at least comparable to Cinner now.

 

[LeoEpicGamer8910]

Kind of off-topic, but I can't believe this is the only first round.

 

[Javenplayz253]

Kind of off-topic, but I can't believe this is the only first round.

Wdym?
Edit: Nvm I Was Dumb For A Second LOL

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

I should point this out: electric sources are amazing for Ako, since even just a couple powerlines can return him all the way up from being on the brink of a shutdown. Even without the bubble strat, by carefully using powerlines, Ako can outlast Cinner even if the fight goes for a week or more. A large city like this should have loads of them, which is why Ako can multiply his stuff this way.

Note: he was also able to restore his energy by using Vacteria’s electric volts, but that’s way harder for him to do and Cinner doesn’t have electric attacks I think anyway

 

[LeoEpicGamer8910]

I should point this out: electric sources are amazing for Ako, since even just a couple powerlines can return him all the way up from being on the brink of a shutdown. Even without the bubble strat, by carefully using powerlines, Ako can outlast Cinner even if the fight goes for a week or more. A large city like this should have loads of them, which is why Ako can multiply his stuff this way.

Note: he was also able to restore his energy by using Vacteria’s electric volts, but that’s way harder for him to do and Cinner doesn’t have electric attacks I think anyway

Damn. Good thing Delta didn't face Ako. That would've been a massacre.

 

[MintyBoi1]

And don't forget that the speed of Check is multiplied as well, and it was already too fast for Cinner to react to without ESP. After Ako downs the barrier, he can use far superior speed and double blitz Cinner with Check, which will pretty much spawn already stabbing him at these speeds.

This problem is also solved with powerlines, as Ako's everything is multiplied, which will make all of his attacks at baseline 60 megatons, and his other moves far stronger. Besides, things like Gale would hurt Cinner anyway via plasma attacks. Ako's stamina with all of this energy should be at least comparable to Cinner now.

I don’t remember it being stated Check is too fast for Cinner without ESP, it’s not like it’s in any of Ako’s forms that give a speed advantage. Regardless, this scenario is sounding disadvantageous for Cinner if it is the most likely of the bunch. I believe there are scenarios where Cinner ends things in the early or mid game before it gets to this point. Still, there is a chance Cinner gets a grab after taking a few blows and can finish with that depending on what form Ako takes, especially Tremor. Also plasma goes from 11000-14500 degrees Fahrenheit so Ako would need a lot if that’s his plan to win.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

I don’t remember it being stated Check is too fast for Cinner without ESP

It’s because Check is equal to Ako’s transformation speed which was already too fast for Cinner to react to in real time, so with massive speed amps from power lines Check is an easy blitz and wincon

I Regardless, this scenario is sounding disadvantageous for Cinner if it is the most likely of the bunch. I believe there are scenarios where Cinner ends things in the early or mid game before it gets to this point. Still, there is a chance Cinner gets a grab after taking a few blows and can finish with that depending on what form Ako takes, especially Tremor.

Bubble can send Cinner away by emerging a shield from Ako’s core, basically pushing him away, forcing him off of Ako even if he has a firm grip/wrapped up with lifeline. I also said before that Ako simply transforming would shred him, and if Ako feels that Cinner is actually about to win, there’s no reason why he won’t just say screw it and go for the big bubble scheme anyway. No citizens, no concern. This also assumes that, for some reason, Ako wouldn’t be able to stab Cinner with Frost in close quarters. He can transform while he’s still being grabbed and if Cinner survives the shredding, he’s still gonna be open for an attack from Frost’s tail, back blades, or lance. Or, he could just be frozen right away by an instant burst of ice waves. I just can’t see Cinner having the opportunity. Ako won’t all of a sudden be unable to transform and he definitely won’t just let Cinner choke him out without a fight. Even with an 8.5 times LS, Ako has many methods.

 

[MintyBoi1]

If it really comes down to it, Cinner can force his staff through Ako’s head or snap his neck with LS before he gets to do anything else at this point. A bubble that’s not the Cosmic one could be beaten out by Lifeline so Ako making that his first choice would be a mistake. Unless he can spam Cosmic Bubble, I see a way out of this for Cinner. It’s also worth noting he’d be attacking from the front, so Frost’s tail likely wouldn’t come into play. As for freezing, Cinner can control his body temperature to counteract long enough for his final blow to land. The Lance could be beaten out by LS as well. If Ako lets Cinner get the chance to land an attack while he’s in this state, I think that’ll be the end for him.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

If it really comes down to it, Cinner can force his staff through Ako’s head or snap his neck with LS before he gets to do anything else at this point. A bubble that’s not the Cosmic one could be beaten out by Lifeline so Ako making that his first choice would be a mistake.

The scenario where Cinner and Ako would be in this situation is only possible assuming Ako hasn’t used Cosmic Bubble yet, and with an obvious difference in strength Ako wouldn’t make a rookie mistake like using any other move. He would escape with cosmic bubble and proceed to the energy strat.

It’s also worth noting he’d be attacking from the front, so Frost’s tail likely wouldn’t come into play.

He can just have his tail stab out from behind him, kind of like how a snake attacks prey.

As for freezing, Cinner can control his body temperature to counteract long enough for his final blow to land.

He would be nearly instantly frozen across his entire body. So, his options are to either let go of and get away from Ako, or freeze and lose. I don’t see him having the ability to instantly mitigate that kind of a temperature blast in what would be about a microsecond of time.

If Ako lets Cinner get the chance to land an attack while he’s in this state, I think that’ll be the end for him.

And again, Ako transforming with Cinner on top of him is also a wincon for Ako. No amount of lifting strength will prevent Ako from transforming, and Cinner would be shredded. I’m assuming his ESP would tell him to get out of there, and he’d have to approach all over again, so they would go back and forth on this pretty much forever. This is why Ako would resort to his bubble plan in that situation.

Every scenario where Cinner could win just leads to Ako using the big bubble plan, where Ako then blitzes and gets the win himself.

 

[Javenplayz253]

Ako Fra

 

[MintyBoi1]

The scenario where Cinner and Ako would be in this situation is only possible assuming Ako hasn’t used Cosmic Bubble yet, and with an obvious difference in strength Ako wouldn’t make a rookie mistake like using any other move. He would escape with cosmic bubble and proceed to the energy strat.

He can just have his tail stab out from behind him, kind of like how a snake attacks prey.

He would be nearly instantly frozen across his entire body. So, his options are to either let go of and get away from Ako, or freeze and lose. I don’t see him having the ability to instantly mitigate that kind of a temperature blast in what would be about a microsecond of time.

And again, Ako transforming with Cinner on top of him is also a wincon for Ako. No amount of lifting strength will prevent Ako from transforming, and Cinner would be shredded. I’m assuming his ESP would tell him to get out of there, and he’d have to approach all over again, so they would go back and forth on this pretty much forever. This is why Ako would resort to his bubble plan in that situation.

Every scenario where Cinner could win just leads to Ako using the big bubble plan, where Ako then blitzes and gets the win himself.

If this is before Ako uses Cosmic Bubble, I don’t see how Cinner doesn’t finish things off with any sort of strategy or attack. Even then, Cinner could just get the grab he needs and finish Ako off. The Cosmic Bubble camping is the only thing preventing Ako from losing by the late game.

If Cinner is put in a position where he knows it’s his last chance to finish Ako, he’ll rush for the attack since escape isn’t an option. How does an explosion and some metal defeat him before he destroys Ako? He could also use extension for Metal Crush, Strong Leap, or Lightning Breaker to distance himself and damage Ako at the same time.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

If Cinner is put in a position where he knows it’s his last chance to finish Ako, he’ll rush for the attack since escape isn’t an option. How does an explosion and some metal defeat him before he destroys Ako?

The metal flies around as fatal shrapnel at a speed which Cinner can’t react to without ESP, which is why he would be ripped to shreds. Monsters with similar durability as Ako and Cinner are pretty easily ripped apart when getting into Ako’s transformation range. The explosion is hardly the most deadly part.

Cinner doesn’t have speed amps either and Gale should be at least twice his speed, and Blitz is even faster than that, so Ako can dodge if it comes down to it.

Cinner could also be intercepted with Check or Queens Gambit (both faster than Cinner reaction time, he can only stop them via ESP) in a charge attack. Ako could also just go Flood while Cinner has to use lifeline to deal with Check and release large clouds of anesthetic gas all over the place in an attempt to overwhelm Cinner quickly. By attacking with a series of missiles during this, he can also bait Cinner into deflecting as the gas envelops him in the same instant, which gives Ako a slight moment extra where he can use Blitz to get a few hundreds of meters away before using Cosmic Bubble. With Ako going for Cosmic Bubble after getting away and spending over 25 seconds gathering the energy, the gas would take effect and he’d come back all amped up just to find Cinner knocked out.

Even Cinner escaping the gas after a few moments wouldn’t be enough as it would already be spread through most of his system. With willpower, he can still fight, but he would fall unconscious in a minute or two. But if he stays in the gas and deflects the missiles, he will fall unconscious in the moments he attempts to jump out.

If this is before Ako uses Cosmic Bubble, I don’t see how Cinner doesn’t finish things off with any sort of strategy or attack. Even then, Cinner could just get the grab he needs and finish Ako off.

The point is that Cosmic Bubble can be used to nullify an attack which would finish Ako, considering that Cinner has nothing strong enough to bust into it. He would be catapulted through the sky upon activation even if he has Ako right there. Ako could also just have it be just big enough to surround himself only, which makes the emergence of the barrier much faster, and then he could expand it to gain energy after Cinner was launched.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

And another thing/wincon for Ako that I thought of, Flood’s gas is also poisonous, and Cinner has no resistance to that either. Willpower again will help him, but even then, anesthetic combined with poison will down Cinner quickly. The gas itself is also able to down monsters that regularly resist other types of anesthetic as well, so Ako’s power to put Cinner to sleep shouldn’t be scoffed at. All of it combined are very powerful, and sheer willpower and ESP can only carry Cinner so far.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Cinner can control his body temperature to counteract long enough for his final blow to land. The Lance could be beaten out by LS as well. If Ako lets Cinner get the chance to land an attack while he’s in this state, I think that’ll be the end for him.

I wanted to go back to this as well. Ako’s freezing rays have nanobugs inside which make it much faster to freeze and can even counteract pure flames which can normally counter such a thing, since the bugs get through. Cinner will be instantly fossilized by Frost’s blast attacks.

 

[Froggytron]

This problem is also solved with powerlines, as Ako's everything is multiplied, which will make all of his attacks at baseline 60 megatons, and his other moves far stronger. Besides, things like Gale would hurt Cinner anyway via plasma attacks. Ako's stamina with all of this energy should be at least comparable to Cinner now.

How can his attacks be baseline 60 megatons (going up to 7-A), when his AP feat scales to this low city level tho

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

How can his attacks be baseline 60 megatons (going up to 7-A), when his AP feat scales to this low city level tho

I only added that link because I don't have any calcs for V. Verse, the real info is in the Hero Secret Files, which shows Ako's real AP

Ako is clearly city-level, as the entire S Class is and Ako has fought many City Level opponents. Ako has personally fought fellow tourney competitor Vacteria as well

Besides, that quote is from when is said that Ako would get that powerful by sapping from powerlines. You were correct before that Ako's peak attacks reached 60, but that doesn't mean that his other moves are all the way down in the tens. His moves all together should be between 45-60 megatons, with Tremor leading the way at AP.

 

[Javenplayz253]

I only added that link because I don't have any calcs for V. Verse, the real info is in the Hero Secret Files, which shows Ako's real AP

You Don't Have Calculations???

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

You Don't Have Calculations???

I mean, I haven't necessarily needed any so far

With all of this said, my vote remains with Ako still which brings it to 2 votes for him overall.

 

[LeoEpicGamer8910]

With all of this said, my vote remains with Ako still which brings it to 2 votes for him overall.

Ako Fra

Counted

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Bump

 

[Javenplayz253]

Wait can't leo or froggy vote so we can be done with this match?

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Wait can't leo or froggy vote so we can be done with this match?

I think they are waiting for a response first to see if Cinner has any way to counter the above points

 

[Javenplayz253]

oof ok

 

[MintyBoi1]

Cinner could also be intercepted with Check or Queens Gambit (both faster than Cinner reaction time, he can only stop them via ESP) in a charge attack. Ako could also just go Flood while Cinner has to use lifeline to deal with Check and release large clouds of anesthetic gas all over the place in an attempt to overwhelm Cinner quickly. By attacking with a series of missiles during this, he can also bait Cinner into deflecting as the gas envelops him in the same instant, which gives Ako a slight moment extra where he can use Blitz to get a few hundreds of meters away before using Cosmic Bubble. With Ako going for Cosmic Bubble after getting away and spending over 25 seconds gathering the energy, the gas would take effect and he’d come back all amped up just to find Cinner knocked out.

Even Cinner escaping the gas after a few moments wouldn’t be enough as it would already be spread through most of his system. With willpower, he can still fight, but he would fall unconscious in a minute or two. But if he stays in the gas and deflects the missiles, he will fall unconscious in the moments he attempts to jump out.

The point is that Cosmic Bubble can be used to nullify an attack which would finish Ako, considering that Cinner has nothing strong enough to bust into it. He would be catapulted through the sky upon activation even if he has Ako right there. Ako could also just have it be just big enough to surround himself only, which makes the emergence of the barrier much faster, and then he could expand it to gain energy after Cinner was launched.

Good strategy, though if Cinner’s extension has been used up, he may just retreat from the missiles to lead them into a building before Ako uses the gas or just get into the air to make things easier until his extension comes back. Since he can feel check and knows he’d only have one extension to deal with it, I think on the second time it comes out he could switch to that method. Or he could just hold his breath upon seeing/feeling gas and hurry out. And then we’re in the same scenario where Ako is amped and rushing with the chance of being caught and finished.

I’ve also noticed Metal Crush hasn’t come into play, it could be a good Cinner win con. If at any point Cinner gets into the air and comes down on Ako with momentum from falling and the LS to crush him, that could be it. It would cause at least some level of head damage or body damage and since Ako doesn’t have above low regen, he’d be either dead or very injured. Of course it’d need some set up, I think what’s most likely is Ako tries Tremor again in one of his strategies and Cinner leaps above the attacks or maybe just uses his giant fist as a lift and executes the move.

Alternatively, Ako could use flood and before resorting to complicated strategy try acid like earlier in the fight. Since Cinner possibly has a resistance, he could leap through it or overpower it, catching him Ako off guard with Metal Crush or Shield Piercer. And if Ako blocks, there’d still be a flurry of attacks he’d have to deal with plus everything else Cinner has got including another grab since it worked so well at the start.

I suppose it’s a race between Cinner beating Ako and Ako using that shield since once again both have win cons depending on the scenario. Cinner being at his peak focus could reasonably beat Ako before his mind jumps to the ultimate defense, afterall Ako as plenty of strategies to try. Another thing I’ve thought of Cinner can do when Ako has his amps. If Ako tries rushing him with Gale for example, he could use Lifeline to destroy the ground beneath him. Ako would have to jump over this, making his movement predictable enough to be caught by Cinner for that win. If Cinner really can’t break the shield, he could settle on a trap like that even before Ako comes rushing.

And another thing/wincon for Ako that I thought of, Flood’s gas is also poisonous, and Cinner has no resistance to that either. Willpower again will help him, but even then, anesthetic combined with poison will down Cinner quickly. The gas itself is also able to down monsters that regularly resist other types of anesthetic as well, so Ako’s power to put Cinner to sleep shouldn’t be scoffed at. All of it combined are very powerful, and sheer willpower and ESP can only carry Cinner so far.

Ako’s abilities are very great combined, but Cinner has faced poison users before. Ako can only go for one strategy at a time and a few weapons, even if he can swap instantly. It’s something that should have at least a little bit of exploit. And there’s also the scenarios where Cinner gets away from the gas before it enters his system I mentioned.

I wanted to go back to this as well. Ako’s freezing rays have nanobugs inside which make it much faster to freeze and can even counteract pure flames which can normally counter such a thing, since the bugs get through. Cinner will be instantly fossilized by Frost’s blast attacks.

Yeah, that’s bad. Only counter I can think of is dodging or getting past with an extension to nullify the bugs or just leave them on Lifeline’s tip.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Good strategy, though if Cinner’s extension has been used up, he may just retreat from the missiles to lead them into a building before Ako uses the gas or just get into the air to make things easier until his extension comes back.

Even one of the rockets would obliterate the whole building, I think Cinner would get harmed by the explosion at least, and if he jumps into the air Ako can still have the rockets home in on him anyway

Since he can feel check and knows he’d only have one extension to deal with it, I think on the second time it comes out he could switch to that method. Or he could just hold his breath upon seeing/feeling gas and hurry out. And then we’re in the same scenario where Ako is amped and rushing with the chance of being caught and finished.

Ako won’t be caught because when he’s amped, he’s at blitzing speed. He’s not gonna fight much differently or be overconfident because his emotions are more akin to a robot, so Cinner won’t have the chance, and even with his ESP he simply won’t be fast enough. Ako would be able to hit him about a hundred different ways before Cinner even moves a muscle, so again, amped Ako won’t be caught.

I’ve also noticed Metal Crush hasn’t come into play, it could be a good Cinner win con. If at any point Cinner gets into the air and comes down on Ako with momentum from falling and the LS to crush him, that could be it. It would cause at least some level of head damage or body damage and since Ako doesn’t have above low regen, he’d be either dead or very injured. Of course it’d need some set up, I think what’s most likely is Ako tries Tremor again in one of his strategies and Cinner leaps above the attacks or maybe just uses his giant fist as a lift and executes the move.

Maybe it could happen, but I did establish before that Ako is using many series of Shield Grenades through the course of the fight, and with then active he can have them hover around him and intercept Metal Crush. The strike would likely break the grenade, but again, he has tons of them and can cycle them in and out. He should also see the disadvantages Tremor has anyway after the first clash from earlier and simply not go back

Alternatively, Ako could use flood and before resorting to complicated strategy try acid like earlier in the fight. Since Cinner possibly has a resistance, he could leap through it or overpower it, catching him Ako off guard with Metal Crush or Shield Piercer. And if Ako blocks, there’d still be a flurry of attacks he’d have to deal with plus everything else Cinner has got including another grab since it worked so well at the start.

Shield Grenades should be able to take care of this scenario too, and there’s also a chance Ako can swap to Bubble on time. Ako has his scanners after all and would be extremely difficult to catch off guard.

I suppose it’s a race between Cinner beating Ako and Ako using that shield since once again both have win cons depending on the scenario. Cinner being at his peak focus could reasonably beat Ako before his mind jumps to the ultimate defense, afterall Ako as plenty of strategies to try. Another thing I’ve thought of Cinner can do when Ako has his amps. If Ako tries rushing him with Gale for example, he could use Lifeline to destroy the ground beneath him. Ako would have to jump over this, making his movement predictable enough to be caught by Cinner for that win. If Cinner really can’t break the shield, he could settle on a trap like that even before Ako comes rushing.

Both do have wincons, but for when he’s amped, Ako is simply going to be impossible to catch. “Speed Blitz is the act of one attacking their opponent before they are capable of perceiving or reacting to them. Blitzing is different than outpacing, where a character is simply faster than the other. A blitz is more like an all around outclassing in speed.”

With a city worth of powerlines energy, Ako will be that fast, at least for a small time until he expends the energy to dip below blitz level. But Cinner doesn’t have the means to fight against someone like Ako, who already has a million different things he COULD do, so even if Cinner reacted, he can’t really ‘perceive’ Ako and would have to guess perfectly what he does. The Gale plan he has would also be alright, but all of Ako’s forms will be at speed blitz and Gale is doubly as fast, so Ako would be slicing him before he could react.

Ako’s use of shield grenades throughout the fight also give him the ability to halt Cinner’s wincons up until he uses Cosmic Bubble

Ako’s abilities are very great combined, but Cinner has faced poison users before. Ako can only go for one strategy at a time and a few weapons, even if he can swap instantly. It’s something that should have at least a little bit of exploit. And there’s also the scenarios where Cinner gets away from the gas before it enters his system I mentioned.

Yeah, that’s bad. Only counter I can think of is dodging or getting past with an extension to nullify the bugs or just leave them on Lifeline’s tip.

This is also true, it’s a weakness of Ako for a reason. But Ako is also more than capable of assessing situations and thinking well ahead, after all, he was literally created on that basis. He’s not one to go for a strategy he thinks will be even a little bit ineffective. He’s a robotic, calculated perfectionist, and I think that will help him out, since he won’t be baited into using something like Tremor which feeds into Cinner’s wincons. His scanners tell him how strong someone is, so it may even inform Ako if the LS different from the very beginning which means Ako actually may not use Tremor at all, and throughout this whole thing Blast hasn’t even been mentioned which supports this

As for the freezing, if Lifeline is frozen by the Nanobugs, wouldn’t it promptly shatter next time he uses it? The Nanobugs are persistent through extreme heat, and although Cinner’s heat ability is above what they are normally made to handle (they are not faced by 500 degrees Celsius, which is about 1000 Fahrenheit, which means they won’t last very long vs his heat) but it’s not like they’ll be dissipated instantly, and there’s still a chance they can try and jump onto Cinner’s skin to make something of themselves. And if Ako continues to blast waves, more and more bugs will be involved, and if Cinner attempts to deflect any of the beams Ako shoots from either his lance, hips, tail, chest, or legs, Lifeline becomes a popsicle.

 

[MintyBoi1]

Even one of the rockets would obliterate the whole building, I think Cinner would get harmed by the explosion at least, and if he jumps into the air Ako can still have the rockets home in on him anyway

Ako won’t be caught because when he’s amped, he’s at blitzing speed. He’s not gonna fight much differently or be overconfident because his emotions are more akin to a robot, so Cinner won’t have the chance, and even with his ESP he simply won’t be fast enough. Ako would be able to hit him about a hundred different ways before Cinner even moves a muscle, so again, amped Ako won’t be caught.

Ako could send more rockets but by then, I think the seconds Cinner needs to extend again would be all gone and he could more properly defend himself. But it seems that the cosmic bubble win con is the most consistently a win for Ako.

Maybe it could happen, but I did establish before that Ako is using many series of Shield Grenades through the course of the fight, and with then active he can have them hover around him and intercept Metal Crush. The strike would likely break the grenade, but again, he has tons of them and can cycle them in and out. He should also see the disadvantages Tremor has anyway after the first clash from earlier and simply not go back

Shield Grenades should be able to take care of this scenario too, and there’s also a chance Ako can swap to Bubble on time. Ako has his scanners after all and would be extremely difficult to catch off guard.

Ako’s use of shield grenades throughout the fight also give him the ability to halt Cinner’s wincons up until he uses Cosmic Bubble

Cinner could go for some kicks upon the bubble being broken since he’d be placed above Ako or grabbing and slamming him into the ground. If the exchange lasts long enough, Cinner can attempt another extension pushing off Ako for good damage.

There’s the Gale Tremor Check Frost combination you mentioned earlier. If Ako tries that, that’s likely a scenario where he loses for everything Cinner can do against 3 out of the 4 he’d try there. Maybe you’re right about him not opting for Tremor again, but that’s still 2/3 Cinner can counter before amps and even Frost isn’t guaranteed to win. I don’t think Cinner would opt to deflect a freezing beam unless he thinks his heat can overwhelm. Even then, it’d only be if he absolutely couldn’t dodge as to not get frozen himself. And since this is still a cityscape, a convenient chunk of road or building could be what Cinner needs to escape.

On that note now I’m thinking, if Ako is spamming shields, Cinner can equip some projectiles to deal with those with all the destruction they’d be causing. It could counter Ako’s defense advantage and make up for Cinner’s lacking range and become a permanent thing for the course of the fight.

This is also true, it’s a weakness of Ako for a reason. But Ako is also more than capable of assessing situations and thinking well ahead, after all, he was literally created on that basis. He’s not one to go for a strategy he thinks will be even a little bit ineffective. He’s a robotic, calculated perfectionist, and I think that will help him out, since he won’t be baited into using something like Tremor which feeds into Cinner’s wincons. His scanners tell him how strong someone is, so it may even inform Ako if the LS different from the very beginning which means Ako actually may not use Tremor at all, and throughout this whole thing Blast hasn’t even been mentioned which supports this

As for the freezing, if Lifeline is frozen by the Nanobugs, wouldn’t it promptly shatter next time he uses it? The Nanobugs are persistent through extreme heat, and although Cinner’s heat ability is above what they are normally made to handle (they are not faced by 500 degrees Celsius, which is about 1000 Fahrenheit, which means they won’t last very long vs his heat) but it’s not like they’ll be dissipated instantly, and there’s still a chance they can try and jump onto Cinner’s skin to make something of themselves. And if Ako continues to blast waves, more and more bugs will be involved, and if Cinner attempts to deflect any of the beams Ako shoots from either his lance, hips, tail, chest, or legs, Lifeline becomes a popsicle.

Continuing the topic of Tremor, it also comes with plasma and heat manipulation which Ako wouldn’t initially know Cinner resists. I don’t think there’s indication of his scanners letting him get that intricate of details. So there’s a possibility that Ako does feed into that win con at least once. Blast could also be used before Tremor with its cannons making things even easier for Cinner.

Direct contact of the ice bugs would throw things out of order, but there is Aura assuming Gale hasn’t discouraged Cinner from using it. Even then, if Cinner knows only that form can absorb, he could flare up for the seconds the ice is coming for him if he doesn’t dodge. They’d be moths to an open sun, they would likely be dissipated quickly from even a medium distance. Quick intervals of enhanced heat would be a good counter.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Ako could send more rockets but by then, I think the seconds Cinner needs to extend again would be all gone and he could more properly defend himself. But it seems that the cosmic bubble win con is the most consistently a win for Ako.


Cinner could go for some kicks upon the bubble being broken since he’d be placed above Ako or grabbing and slamming him into the ground. If the exchange lasts long enough, Cinner can attempt another extension pushing off Ako for good damage.

The shields are made to defend against dragon level monsters around the same AP as Cinner and Ako, which means that it’ll take great effort from Cinner since the AP difference is good. A metal crush can possibly break a couple shields, but even then, Shield Grenade bubbles typically will push enemies back, kind of like a ‘bumper’ of some kind upon destruction. Even if Cinner can hold off from being pushed away, Ako is able to stack these shields among each other and all around him. Making some of these grenades into a cluster of 10-15 shields will make it all the more difficult, and Cinner won’t be able to push through to Ako without a barrage of Metal Crush. All the same, he’d be blown backwards a small distance upon the first shield destruction anyway and wouldn’t be in position for a barrage anymore. If he’s ever at a real risk, Ako can do an instant pivot to Blitz to jump away with 3 times speed, another to Bubble, and send out another hundred or so Shield grenades to further stack. Depending on the situation, he may not even need to use Blitz first. He can use the same plan to go get powerlines even without Cosmic Bubble, or, what’s more likely is that he’d just use it right there.

There’s the Gale Tremor Check Frost combination you mentioned earlier. If Ako tries that, that’s likely a scenario where he loses for everything Cinner can do against 3 out of the 4 he’d try there. Maybe you’re right about him not opting for Tremor again, but that’s still 2/3 Cinner can counter before amps and even Frost isn’t guaranteed to win. I don’t think Cinner would opt to deflect a freezing beam unless he thinks his heat can overwhelm. Even then, it’d only be if he absolutely couldn’t dodge as to not get frozen himself. And since this is still a cityscape, a convenient chunk of road or building could be what Cinner needs to escape.

On that note now I’m thinking, if Ako is spamming shields, Cinner can equip some projectiles to deal with those with all the destruction they’d be causing. It could counter Ako’s defense advantage and make up for Cinner’s lacking range and become a permanent thing for the course of the fight.

Ako will not try anything that was previously a failure, so no Tremor again. No Blast at all, since it’s obvious to him that it doesn’t work against someone like Cinner. It’s called ‘tactical transformation’ for a reason, after all, and at this point Ako should have all the data he needs on Cinner to win.

Frost also has freezing waves which is more like a blizzard than a blast attack. The scale of it would be too large for Cinner to actually deflect, and although it isn’t instant like the beams, he’d start getting frozen very quickly. Ako’s beams are also high in the megatons and could simply blow through chunks without freezing them first.

Continuing the topic of Tremor, it also comes with plasma and heat manipulation which Ako wouldn’t initially know Cinner resists. I don’t think there’s indication of his scanners letting him get that intricate of details. So there’s a possibility that Ako does feed into that win con at least once. Blast could also be used before Tremor with its cannons making things even easier for Cinner.

Direct contact of the ice bugs would throw things out of order, but there is Aura assuming Gale hasn’t discouraged Cinner from using it. Even then, if Cinner knows only that form can absorb, he could flare up for the seconds the ice is coming for him if he doesn’t dodge. They’d be moths to an open sun, they would likely be dissipated quickly from even a medium distance. Quick intervals of enhanced heat would be a good counter.

Cinner is also not resistant to the actual damage Tremor’s attacks would do, since they are at Ako’s max of 60 megatons. Even without heat or plasma elements, he takes big damage from those, and the explosions would be massive on their own too. With shield grenade stack combos, Ako could destroy all the area around him without taking damage himself, and wall Cinner away with a massive circle of 60 megaton explosions. Another opening for Ako to use his Cosmic Bubble strategy. I also already mentioned that Ako will not opt for Blast.

Cinner has no reason to believe that only Gale can absorb the elements. Maybe he can assume that Frost can’t because it’s an ice based form, but he doesn’t have evidence that Ako’s other states aren’t like Gale.

Cinner’s heat plan is a good strategy against nanobugs, but against Ako’s blizzards and beams themselves, not so much, although defiantly not bad. It would lessen the damage and slow the actual freezing itself (because 15000 is just that hot), but it’s still extremely quick, even against monsters made form fire or lava, which the form is designed to subdue. He could also throw in usage of Check during the freezing attacks or during times where Cinner needs to deflect. Again, Check is very quick and if lifeline is being used for anything else, Cinner gets defeated by it. He will have to take a hit either way.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Current summary: Cinner and Ako both have good wincons prior to Cosmic Bubble, but Ako has his shield grenades, and the ability to stack them allows him to fend off most of Cinner’s best wincons (LS, intuition, acrobatics based moves, etc). On the other hand, it’s also possible Cinner could win before Cosmic Bubble, but based on my assessment, not likely. Cinner has ways to counter Ako’s abilities in other forms, but as said already, shield grenades save Ako.



Ako is known for his prep, planning, and tactical mind. He doesn’t get nervous and acts instantly. By stacking the grenades not only can he survive Cinner’s moves, but he can also gather all the data he needs on him. It would quickly be clear to Ako that Cosmic Bubble is the way to go, and based on the city being dead empty, nothing stops him from making the decision much faster than normal. He knows his weakness and limits, especially with Cinner able to counter so well, and this is clearly the best course for his victory based on all the factors discussed in the fight so far. Ako prefers quick fights so I don’t see Cinner being able to win before he does the bubble. His scanners prevent any surprise attacks and allow Ako to see him coming ahead of time, and shield grenades are extremely useful for blocking lifeline attacks. Those combined should be more than enough to allow Ako to survive well enough and use his Cosmic Bubble plan.

 

[MintyBoi1]

I suppose I can’t argue against those points if Ako does just end up playing lame and amping himself before fatal damage is done and he doesn’t shut off. I’ll vote Ako FRA to end this