Questions about Konosuba justifications

[Solacis]

So in wanting to try expanding my contributions to more verses, I decided to start with Konosuba, my current favorite Light Novel. That said, looking through the profiles, I saw a couple of... questionable justifications. Thus, I need to ask.

1. Why the hell is Kazuma's AP and Striking Strength backscaled from Megumin's Explosion?

2. Why is Aqua's non-goddess form separated into two keys when it was stated that her stats were completely maxed out, and that she had already learnt all the Archpriest skills at Level 1?

3. Why is Vanir's AP scaled to his durability feat? Yes, a feat of high AP can warrant an increase to the character's durability because otherwise they'd damage themselves from the counterforce. However, this principle doesn't work both ways.

4. Cases of circular scaling when it comes to the justifications. Aqua's AP is listed as 8-A for damaging Vanir, yet Vanir's durability is listed 8-A for tanking hits from Aqua?

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Wow we just had a downgrade for this verse and now another questionable thing about this verse comes to light...

Anyways I think it all comes them being comparable to Megumin's explosions? Which were recently recalced to 8-A. But yeah I guess Muchacho mrm should be called here since he initiated the downgrades and is very knowledgeable as well. I can try to ask him to comment here.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

1. Kazuma is scaling to the group, the are feats that are more than enough. For example fighting Fenrir or effortlessly stabbing Aqua or even stabbing serena , although that really was weird and argument is probably my dark past lol.

2. She had stated her stats are maxed out. This meant her levels should be maxed, that is until 'maxed out' stats came into play. Basically everyone has a stat cap, MC was approaching his. You can still level up but your stats are 'maxed' and frankly the assumption she has maxed out levels collapsed at this point, especially with her feats. For example MC rating Darkness' defence the highest despite seeing Aqua's stats, seems like a newbie mistake, no? Also having a-lot of skill points at the start isn't exclusive to her even she had stated "The more potential a person has, the more skill points they start out with".

3. Vanir scales to volume 3 megumin in terms of durability as he had stated her attack was enough to take his life. In AP he scales to demon generals, harming Wiz and fighting Aqua.

 

[Solacis]

1. What? Kazuma couldn't damage Fenrir. The best he did was Bind it before he remembered that he forgot his sword. Then his makeshift ice sword shattered just trying to hurt it.

1.1. Also, when did he stab Aqua or Serena? Not that it matters. Even if he did, we don't scale striking strength to attacks that classify as piercing strength, so even that argument is debunked. The most damage he's ever done to Serena was when he dropkicked her into unconsciousness, but then, let me ask, what evidence is there that Serena even has notable durability in the first place? She's never fought, and she was even terrified at the prospect of taking on Wiz or Vanir, so she's clearly inferior to both.

2. I'll just chalk this up to Konosuba's weird explanations for its game mechanics. It's a fairly minor issue anyway.

3. Vanir's durability scales to Megumin's Explosion. Scaling to Demon Generals is of no feat at all, seeing as there's literally no reason to believe that they all have comparable stats. We just know that they're strong. They can be strong for their hax, their physical strength, their magical strength, their social influence or any combination of the three. We won't know how they compare to each other unless they actually fight, and the only ones we know have fought are Wiz and Vanir.

Let me just sum up my thought-process here:

1. Megumin's early Explosion is 8-A.
   Okay, that's fine.
2. Vanir was one-shot by an 8-A attack in Darkness' body and admitted that it was strong enough to kill him.
   Thus, because his body got one-shot by an 8-A force, he can also punch with 8-A force. Totally makes sense.
3. Wiz fought a serious Vanir so they should be comparable.
   Sure, because we definitely know how that fight went down, and if Wiz could hurt Vanir, who was one-shot by the only legitimately 8-A attack in the verse, then she must also be 8-A!
4. Both Wiz and Vanir are 8-A. That must mean every other Demon King General must be 8-A, too.
   Because Celestina/Serena, a non-combat General who was utterly terrified of taking on either Wiz or Vanir, can be considered comparable to them. Sure.
5. Kazuma can hurt Serena, so he must be 8-A, too.
   Naturally, he dropkicks with a fifth of the force of Megumin's Explosion. Logic.

Also, while Vanir's body was destroyed, Darkness was only knocked unconscious. In all seriousness, if anything, she's the only one that actually scales to 8-A durability. Beldia only tanked an Explosion that wasn't much stronger than the one that annihilated a few frogs, as well as failed to destroy his castle in spite of daily attempts, so he doesn't count.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

1/1.1 So let me guess, taking a knife and stabbing someone higher stats than you doesn't count? If he scales far beneath them then they should constantly be aware of his stats and be able to adjust their strength in dealing with him, right... I should also remind you that he has fought both Aqua and Darkness before and he was able to keep up with both, a sign that his stagnating stats aren't that far behind. Also volume 5 megumin blast wave should have killed him if he were so far beneath.

3. They all specialize in different areas. What they all have in common is that they aren't fodder. Firstly if the top tiers are rated low 7-C, back scaling others will be below, no? Vanir's feats are more than enough, he turned Wiz to atoms, more of serious issue than the usual shenanigans, Characters/Weapons who can destroy multiple city-blocks, or those who can easily harm characters with multi city-block level durability. You should look at AP page.

4/5 8-A is 10x, getting one shotted in this site is 7.5 times, Seresdina is low end. Also Kazuma was higher level than when Megumin one shot Vanir, his stats maybe low but he isn't that far off.

Beldia didn't tank an explosion, that's anime only. Manga and LN he was standing and watching his tiny army get blown up. Darkness' durability will always be higher than group due to being a Crusader, provided her level is comparable or not too low. I was never fine with Aqua or Megumin having durability matching their AP, as long as their it's beneath the high end Darkness it's fine.

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

Seresdina is currently 8-B man, she ain't even 8-A and Kazuma just knocked her out in a single kick.

I always believed that Explosion is in a way, Durability Negation in the same way Take-Mikazuchi from Blazblue's blast is Durability Negation. It has AP behind it, sure, but they can both destroy souls. Demons are basically just souls in the mortal realm, unless there is a doorway like in Vampire's dungeon.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

getting one shotted in this site is 7.5 times

We don't use that as a standard for calculating AP though, only as a general rule for debating.

 

[Antvasima]

Monarch is correct.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

Weird that it doesn't apply in verse but on debates, why is it on VS threads. Anyways Shiroyasha has already updated her from 8-A to 8-B and I saw that last night Monarch had edited Megumin but left weather manipulation as well energy projection (energy ignition in verse).

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I removed the powers that had nothing to do with explosions because Megumin can do nothing but explosions.

Weather manipulation I wasn't sure if it was in there for the reason of exploding clouds to get rid of storms or something (which is a terrible reason if that is the explanation but I didn't feel like getting into an argument with anyone) so I left it.

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

By the way, I remember some Knight managed to just barely damage Darkness when she disrespected the princess in some volume, I think it was Claire? But regardless, that managed to damage her wrist or something and Kazuma was able to knock down several knights and somehow struggle with Claire so he should be 8-B/8-A for that.

Before you guys say that Darkness durability should be superior, I know and I must say that just a crack or drop of blood is enough to scale a character, albeit in much lower scale. Tony to Thanos in MCU and Skarbrand to Khorne in Warhammer for example.

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

Also yeah he wrestled with Darkness too and survived getting strangled.

 

[Solacis]

1. No, it doesn't. Destructive Capacity/AP is separated from Piercing Power because VSBW does not use the latter. An example is this calc. A verse's handgun AP was calced, yielding 9-B AP and 8-B PP. Admins only allowed for 9-B because this wiki doesn't use Piercing Power. So yes, unless Kazuma can inflict the same damage with his fists or a blunt weapon as he can with his sword, then it doesn't count as AP.
Also, just because he fought them, doesn't mean they fought seriously. The entire team is well-aware of how weak he is, and Megumin, someone with zero physical combat ability, can overpower him. Do you honestly believe that Kazuma can hit his opponents with force that's anywhere close to an Explosion, the undisputed strongest offensive magic in the verse?
The blast wave not killing him isn't a feat for him. The blast wave of the Explosion used on the MFD also encompassed nearly a quarter of Axel, yet the walls weren't even singed. Unless the LN narration specifically notes that the blast wave dealt damage outside of the intended target, and that Kazuma withstood it, then it's PIS, not a feat.

3. Atomization is durability negation, not a feat of AP. I am more than familiar with the AP page and its standards.

4. 7.5x is a wiki assumption. The One-Shot page specifically notes that the actual difference varies from verse to verse, and that it cannot be used for scaling AP, as there are FAR too many variables to take into account. Serena has also shown ZERO combat feats, and the only reason she's being backscaled from 8-A is because she has a fancy title called "Demon King General".

.

Regarding the scaling:

• Vanir was one-shot by Explosion.
• Explosion is baseline 8-A due to having no listed calc.
• Even assuming that the Explosion was only just enough to kill Vanir, and assuming that Vanir's durability wasn't amped by Darkness' defensive stats at the time, then that still puts Vanir's durability around the arithmetic mean of 7-B.
• Wiz would backscale from that for fighting a serious Vanir.
• Aqua would backscale significantly further by only fighting a casual Vanir.
• Beldia would scale to tanking hits from Aqua.
• Darkness only has a striking feat of destroying two boulders, which is a bit higher than Wall level.
• Megumin would backscale significantly from Darkness.
• Kazuma would backscale from Megumin.

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

With new volume stating that demons' true state is purely mana and the fact that there's only soul in the mortal realm, it makes no sense that AP is going to kill him anyway, better to just throw the Vanir killing within Darkness feat out of the window. Physical stats to Vanir should be scaled to his own "flesh" instead, I mean the earth and flesh from those he kills kind. Not the one he possesses, because it's Darkness durability because Vanir is non-corporeal, meaning he wasn't able to take the physical hit of the Explosion, he likely just killed by its soul destroying properties.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

@Monarch

Energy ignition is what is listed for energy projection for her lol. The weather thing I agree is debatable especially since it's a non-author event.

@Shiroyasha

There are characters that don't have a proper page too like Chris.

@Solacis

There are two admins present and Monarch has only pointed out my 7.5 application since he has read the series then he should comment on the application of Kazuma stabbing Aqua. You are saying they adjusted their strength even though there is zero evidence, used bind and drain against Darkness and eventually got overpowered by Aqua. Also of-course Megumin would do so, what did you expect from a nearly/more-than a 20 level difference. Not MFD blast wave, volume 5 blast wave, not sure why you said MFD there, that's volume 2.

3. This will require staff input. I did state the ability to separate bonds = durability negation. I said ithere

Your listed stuff

1. Correct

2. low 7-C

3. Vanir's durability is from his mask, it is essentially a puppet for his real body in hell. It has it's own set durability unless you want to say he got added durability from Darkness...Megumin was level 26 after Vanir fight, meaning MFD, undead knights, sprites, equaled out to that amount. After that defeating Hans got her to level 33. Going by the assumption that Vanir durability is lower than it currently is then any mid level (20 was referred to as mid) adventurer would stomp him and below 20s would be able to be on par with him, no different than the average newbie town adventurer.

4. Correct if I think I know what you mean?

5. Aqua stomped him, she didn't take any of his lives but he continuously formed and reformed.

6. Beldia scaling to Aqua's magic? How is that the case when demon king buffed his armour against holy

7. Darkness' physical strength is above the group, she was stated to have high AP but a low chance of hitting someone. She also ripped Beldia's armour

8. Correct, which was what I was trying to fix in CRT (if you mean physical aspect)

9. Due to level difference, also a tug of war would equal out to your lifting strength not your capacity to harm others, a body builder can squeeze Tyson's hand but tyson would be able to knock them out.

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

That Vanir, the mask, isn't even technically true him in mortal realm. It's the mana within it.

Beldia's justification should be changed I think, he should somewhat scale to human Wiz due to fighting one another before.

 

[Moritzva]

Weird that it doesn't apply in verse but on debates, why is it on VS threads.

Because while it makes sense by real world logic and previous calcs, fictions throw one-shots around loosely. Ikki can fight versions of himself x48 stronger, while stands in JoJo can nearly one-shot eachother with the smallest differences in strength.

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

Implying that with current Rakudai stats and absurd upgrades Ikki can be a viable example

But yeah you're right about that.

 

[Moritzva]

Implying that with current Rakudai stats and absurd upgrades Ikki can be a viable example

But yeah you're right about that.

Rakudai is a good show with clever, intelligent skill feats and logical writing, I promise.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

Because while it makes sense by real world logic and previous calcs, fictions throw one-shots around loosely. Ikki can fight versions of himself x48 stronger, while stands in JoJo can nearly one-shot eachother with the smallest differences in strength.

Things are that bad, huh. Thanks clarifying. I am currently working on a verse that could match up to his skill though lol.

That Vanir, the mask, isn't even technically true him in mortal realm. It's the mana within it. Beldia's justification should be changed I think, he should somewhat scale to human Wiz due to fighting one another before.

There is something of a soul within him, aqua can dispel magic to a certain extent is having problems in permanently eliminating him, also the holy aspect that also affects the soul does damage him as the magic registers him as a devil and not just a construct. It is something that works on you depending on how pure of a devil your are as stated by Sylvia a mixed blood.

 

[Jinsye]

"Atomization isn't AP, it's hax"

Can you people make up your mind on this I've heard it both ways like multiple times.

 

[Solacis]

Atomization has been hax for ages. I don't know where people are getting that it's AP.

 

[Antvasima]

Probably confusion regarding our standard procedures. It is hard to keep track of them all.

 

[Jinsye]

Atomization has been hax for ages. I don't know where people are getting that it's AP.

I think it's due to the fact that in VS Threads there are sayings "oh this guy is so much stronger he atomizes with a slap"

Which is where the belief came from.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

3. Vanir scales to volume 3 megumin in terms of durability as he had stated her attack was enough to take his life. In AP he scales to demon generals, harming Wiz and fighting Aqua.

Wouldn't that be an anti-feat?

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

Not really. Mostly due to his/her/it type of existence as he interacts through a puppet.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

Keyword "was," meaning that he cannot survive it.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

Yes? Not sure what you mean, his durability isn't up to her current AP and he seems to have unlimited lives.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

Then how does he scale to Megumin?

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

Back scaling, Megumin did a 2.5 kiloton feat volume 7/8 and the one he is referring to is volume 3 Megumin

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

He could be 9-B, and his statement would still work.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

>9-B Vanir

>Dies to a whiff from any random adventurer

>One demon general down, 7 more to go

Seems completely unsound to put him there given his position as a demon general in the verse and bout with Aqua.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

I just realised that they scale via Sylvia. That should be clearer, though.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Well, back from watching the movie and there are new feats for Slyvia, Yunyun, Megumin, and possibly Darkness.

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

Okay, Konosuba being Tier 9 is downplay at least. Intermediate magic users can use natural lightning. And most of them can't stop Demon General. They are 8-C at least.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

Lightning Feats

 

[Solacis]

Could also be magic resistance. Pretty sure that's a stated thing.