Questioning Pokemon Scaling

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Oh noes...a giant revision and the want to downgrade everyone..........

Nope, while I have issues with Rel Pokemon (still believe if you are gonna scale speed like that, you should at least put it as reaction/combat speed for slower mons at most, because Magcargo totally walks/crawls/slithers/etc at Rel speeds...but I digress)

The Issue
To put it short and sweet, the methods for deciding which Pokemon scale to which feats seem pretty arbitrary overall. What is the process here?

For example, the issue that brought this on was Rhydon. What makes is so that Rhydon cannot scale to High 6-C, yet Pokemon like Pelipper scale?

What makes it so that Magmar doesn't scale, bit Magcargo can scale? What decides that? Some answers I got was that "They got evolutions later on therefore they do not scale." I also got "If Rhydon was the final evolution, he would scale". I also got that "allowing Rhydon to scale would ruin the whole scaling system". Another answer I got is that "This assume's Pokemon like Rhyperior are superior to the likes of Pseudo Legendaries (a fan made term btw) who are canonically superior to it (never stated btw)".

Where are we getting all of this information from? Where are we getting the logic of certain Pokemon scaling? What makes Pokemon like Skarmory considered to be superior to say, Tauros? What makes Pelipper superior to the likes of Rhydon? We use hype and fan terms to scale Pokemon, but for the most part, we have nothing solid the has one Pokemon scale over the other.

We don't want every Pokemon and their mother scaling to High 6-C, but we also very odd in how we choose who does scale. These are my issues here with this scaling.

Conclusion
I want to know our process behind this as it seems arbitrary overall. Gaining an evolution in a later generation should not automatically mean a Pokemon is weaker. It means the evolution is just stronger. This does not "retcon" a Pokemon's power. It just means they have a form beyond what they have.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I....kinda agree with this on some stuff. I even have my own issues with some Pokemon scaling but I'll probably make my own thread for that specifically in the future.

Anyway, I want to hear what others say first before I make a comment.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Or....you could get the ball rolling Mr. Professor. ovo

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I agree that Rhydon & Porygon2 should be High 6-C. They're the only ones that get affected by this anyway. It's also apparent that peeps like Charizard, Machamp, and Hydreigon are in a different weight class than say, the regional birds, however minimal. Also, Pokémon like Magmar, Roselia, Scyther, etc. would've been Low 7-B anyway, Gen IV evolution or no.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Skamrory should be Low 7-B, tbh.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

But then the question is...what decides that?

 

[Kepekley23]

You're not the only one who has problems with Relativistic, but let us forget that for a moment.

No Pokémon is even supposed to be High 6-C anymore, remember? I was going to assemble a revision for that but...well.

For the issues in the OP, give me a minute.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The question isn't what, but who. And you're looking at him

In all seriousness, all of them started off as single stage Pokemon.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

@Kepe

Tbf High 6-C Pokemon are no longer from Abomasnow, but from Earthquakes I think...I forget what Pokemon scale to nowadays.

 

[Kepekley23]

That feat wasn't even calced as far as I know.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I think it happened while you were gone. I'll find the thread.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Beat you to it.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

tch

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yeah High 6-C comes from a new feat, not Abama.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

So anyway, back with the topic at hand, I completely agree with you.

 

[Starter_Pack]

There goes Dragon again. owo

But in all seriousness, I completely agree with the OP. To be honest, we cannot lump all of these Pokemon together and file them along like sheep. To utilize the example from the OP, Rhydon was considered a very powerful Pokemon during the early generations before Rhyperior. In fact, it was the Pokemon of choice for many different high-tier Trainers such as Giovanni and Blue, so how does this suddenly change when he gets a new evolution?

What I believe needs to be done is to stop organizing Pokemon based off of a pre-ordained formula. Instead, we have to use that formula more as a guideline than a rule, but judge each of the Pokemon on a case by case scenario. And possibly, we need to create a whole new tiering for these Pokemon that evolve above a High 6-C form, such as Porygon-Z or Rhyperior.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

ƒÆ»ƒÆ»ƒÆ»

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

You know, since this seems to be going straightfowardly and smoothly, I'll say (well ask) my bit to this issue.

Why do we consider Pokedex feats to be outliers for some mon?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Looking at the Pokémon that don't evolve (that we have profiles on) to see if they should really be tier 6.

Kangaskhan: Rare & powerful Pokemon

Lapras: Rare & powerful Pokemon

Pinsir: Scales to Vikavolt

Aerodactyl: Scales above other fossils

Heracross: Scales to Vikavolt

Skarmory: Shouldn't scale to tier 6...

Absol: Being completely honest, based solely off of hype.

Spiritomb: Rare, powerful, and highly feared Pokemon.

Rotom: Rare, powerful, one of a kind Pokemon.

Hawlucha: Euqal to Machamp

Wishiwashi: Equal to Gyarados

Dhelmise: Equal to Wailord

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Yeah the way we scale Pokemon is arbitrary as anything. Basin for it off evolution stage is wonky for multiple reasons.

1. "First stage" can mean you're fully evolved, halfway to being fully evolved, or being 1/3rd of the way to full evolution. Same goes for 2nd stage, just shift some words around.

2. Not all evolutions were created equal. Some Pokemon even in the same stage, even if limiting it to members of a similar evolution progression (3 stages to 3 stages) not all those Pokemon are in the same level of power. Something like Gabite isn't necessarily comparable to Staravia.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Pidgeot clearly isn't equal to Dragonite. Definitely.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Noctowl clearly isn't equal to Dragonite. Definitely.

Not with that attitude. ovo

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

You're right. Anything with the title of Emperor of Dark Nights should be op as f***. Edited with Pidgeot ovo.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

But the question still remains: How DO we scale them? Pokemon are extremely variable in individual power even among their evolutionary companions.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

There lies the issue. Currently, out whole deal is that a lot of Pokemon scale due to hype and such. A prime example is Lycanroc. He's a highly marketed and hyped up mon. Although, that alone shouldn't place him at High 6-C. And a lot of Pokemon are also there for rarity and considered powerful due to said rarity.

Like, the obvious ones are obvious. While it is a fan term, most Pseudo's are considered (outside of Goodra possibly) are considered extremely powerful Pokemon. But that also doesn't mean that they are the limit of regular Pokemon.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

What's your opinion? Should some Pokémon be scaled back to High 7-A due to Pupitar's feat?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Well, as I mentioned, there lies an issue. Unlike other verses, Pokemon doesn't give us a ton of feats to go by for Pokemon scaling outside of trainer battles. When we start with trainers, we start getting High 6-C Rats and Caterpillars.....which doesn't fly.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It's times like this where I think Aizen was right and bringing back Pokémon profiles was more trouble than it was worth lol...

 

[Kepekley23]

I'll comment tomorrow.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I'd actually be OK with the normal Pokemon losing their profiles. They have the most issues out of basically any verse when it comes to keeping them quality. Back to Legends (and maybe Megas) anyone?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Not the biggest fan of this honestly. I would like us to possibly discuss some way to do this beforehand as removing all these files are not my intention.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I disagree with removing the normal pokemon pages.

I say if the current scaling isn't top notch, tiering specifically, then we should put on a new set of eyes and discuss a whole entire new scaling method.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Not the biggest fan of this honestly. I would like us to possible discuss some way to do this beforehand as removing all these files are not my intention.

This. We find a new scaling method is all. It should at least be discussed before any pages are removed.

That returns me to my Pokedex question btw.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Lol most of the Pokemon verse has like literally 0 feats,and they hardly make any comparison between Pokemon unless it's subtle like this Pokemon hunts this Pokemon,or we see them in a pokemon battle which isn't a particularly good method.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Dragon, WWDD?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Lol most of the Pokemon verse has like literally 0 feats,and they hardly make any comparison between Pokemon unless it's subtle like this Pokemon hunts this Pokemon,or we see them in a pokemon battle which isn't a particularly good method.

Pokedex feats make up for this royally though. That and reasonable scaling.

They definitely aren't featless.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

>Reasonable Scaling I'd like to see what's reasonable about Rel and Large Island Magcargo.

>Pokedex Sure,they reveal extra information about Pokemon and could be useable,from what I see it's already in use for some Pokemon.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

And what isn't reasonable? If its a scalable character, then it can scale. I don't like how a character that doesnt look to acomplish much cannot scale to stuff if it actually can. We have plenty of characters that don't "look" like they should scale to their guys but we allow it.

We should have actual reasons for why one shouldn't scale to someone.

 

[SuperKamiNappa]

Looking at the Pokémon that don't evolve (that we have profiles on) to see if they should really be tier 6.
Kangaskhan: Rare & powerful Pokemon

Lapras: Rare & powerful Pokemon

Pinsir: Scales to Vikavolt

Aerodactyl: Scales above other fossils

Heracross: Scales to Vikavolt

Skarmory: Shouldn't scale to tier 6...

Absol: Being completely honest, based solely off of hype.

Spiritomb: Rare, powerful, and highly feared Pokemon.

Rotom: Rare, powerful, one of a kind Pokemon.

Hawlucha: Euqal to Machamp

Wishiwashi: Equal to Gyarados

Dhelmise: Equal to Wailord

About Absol didn't we used to treat all mons who could mega evolve as stage 3s by default? Are we not still doing that?

Also I don't think Rotom is one of a kind, Rotom dexes would be pretty useless if only one trainer on the planet could use them.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

To be fair the Rotom dex is supposed to be a rare thing and is only found in the Alola Region.

So while not "only one can use it", it is true only one place on the planet can have it. But thats my take.