Question about this calc (Kinetic energy calcs based on onscreen speeds)

[Jaakubb]

Why do we calc speed like here and here? What I'm talking about is where the speed of an object is calced by comparing how fast it moves onscree (this is pretty important) to how another object with an assumed speed moves on screen. This can't be valid. Isn't this calc stacking? Can we calc the speed of stormtroopers running by scaling how fast they run on screen compared to how fast blaster bolts move on screen? Are normal people in star wars now supersonic? It makes no sense. I know joshless isn't exactly the most reliable source, but he explains this pretty well here if I missed something in my argument.

Also a verse specific thing for the touhou calc, we can't just assume that the so called "photon attacks" are moving at the speed of light. In real life, photons can act as if they are bound together like atoms and molecules (just like hardlight in sci fi) and for all intensive purposes move much slower than lightspeed. Technically, they are still moving at lightspeed, but they move in really tangled paths and stay in the same place. These articles are the sources.

 

[Jaakubb]

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[OppaiSenpai5]

You've been bumping this for quite a while and you ain't getting much attention so lemme try and help (but not with the touhou stuff).

For the Sekiro example, no this is not calc stacking. Calc stacking refers to stacking calculated results for the stats of a fictional character, attack, vehicle etc. The reason why it's not allowed is because it can be stacked infinetely. Example: Character A has been calculated to be able to move at hypersonic speeds, he then gets blitzed by character B putting him at hypersonic+. Then character C comes along and blitzes B making him high hypersonic. This can go on forever making characters out to be stupidly faster then would logically be.

And as for the calculated speed things like lightning those are from the real world where physics actually work and although they may vary a bit natural lightning us usually around mach 1000, bullets from an AK-47 are usually around 715m/s and the speed of light is well the speed of light. And I get your point about the onscreen thing but if a character is stated to be able to dodge lightning and is then shown doing so then why not just calculate how fast he'd need be to perform the feat shown using pre-calculated values (like we usually do).

And I get the points made in that reddit post too but the speeds aren't abstract just inconsistent with reality. For example we have two games, both of them we have our character running while it's raining, character A is like athlete level from some shooter game and character B is a lightning timer from a hack and slash game. When moving as fast as they can on screen they can both appear to have a comparative movement speed to the raindrops that move at about 10m/s. How is that possible? Well it's simple, you can't portray character B as moving at his actual speed because that would male the game unplayable and slowing down everything would do the same thing. Of course that creates some problems, like lets say character A and B are having a crossover. When they are both on screen both of them need to move at such a speed that the viewers can percieve which results in them looking comparable in speed even though one is thousands of times faster.

Such things have been addressed before. I remember the producers of God of Wars while doing an interview or Q&A were asked about the scene where Kratos chases Hermes. In it even though both are supposed to be ridiculously fast they move at normal human speeds while onscreen during the actual gameplay how is that? The answer basically amounted to "Well we can't make the move at relativistec speeds".

 

[Jaakubb]

For the Sekiro example, no this is not calc stacking. Calc stacking refers to stacking calculated results for the stats of a fictional character, attack, vehicle etc. The reason why it's not allowed is because it can be stacked infinetely. Example: Character A has been calculated to be able to move at hypersonic speeds, he then gets blitzed by character B putting him at hypersonic+. Then character C comes along and blitzes B making him high hypersonic. This can go on forever making characters out to be stupidly faster then would logically be.

I'm not trying to discredit lightning dodging feats. Those are obviously fine. However, this calc does not involve a character dodging anything. It doesn't account for the "inconsistency with reality" you mention later in the post. I would make this have a more specific claim/title/whatever (this isn't some academic paper, i'm not going to write a structured essay) but I don't know what these types of calcs are called. I know they're kinetic energy calcs but they're a specific type.

Also, the reason why it's calc stacking is because it's scaling the attack speed of a character (the dragon) by using the onscreen speeds of the blade compared to supposed lightning. This speed is then scaled to sekiro since he can parry the blows. I don't know, maybe it's not calc stacking but you can't just calc onscreen speeds comparing an objects movement to slowed down movement of a fast object. If a video game depicts lightning as traveling two times the speed of a normal human (or the equivalent in the verse), then does that mean that a normal human in that verse can run at half the speed of lightning? No, they slowed lightning down for similar reasons that they slowed kratos down.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

Lightning attacks often get rejected for not being real lightning but cloud to ground lightning always gets accepted as real and thus accepted as moving at the agreed upon speed of lightning.

Now there is clear difference between this where characters can attack with said lightning, beeing able to dodge, catch and redirect natural lightning being scaled to of it as it appears on screen, which is still fast enough to make you dodge and something like fps characters scaling to the speed of a bullet they are not meant to be able to dodge. In fact bullets in game are either projectiles moving really slow so you can dodge them or a near instant hitscan you can only aimdodge.

And you are forgetting than despite the fact that the lightning in that fight is slowed down so are the characters that are meant to relative to it. In fact in that same the dragon attacks you with an air blast that would logically need to move faster than sound to be visible, to damage Wolf and to not just desperce after being created and the dragon's sword would need to move way faster in order to cause it with the sheer KE of his sword.

And if comparing the speed of the character to the speed of something else is unacceptable due to the fact that it's slowed down how do you propose these inhumanly fast characters. Do you just try and measure the speed at which they can run? Doesn't work cause the characters are slowed down and need to be scaled to something that is equally as slowed as them.

And it's not calc stacking since the speed of lightning is a pre determined value like that of different bullets and scaling Wolf to the dragon is just scaling not stacking.

 

[Jaakubb]

What it basically comes down to is that the calcs assume that everything is slowed down by the same factor. For example, if lightning is slowed down by a factor of 1 million, you can't just assume that everything else is slowed down by 1 million. There is nothing that proves or even implies that they are slowed down this much, or even at all. Sure, the air blasts and attacks must be fast, but 1 million times faster is quite the stretch. Some painfully obvious examples of selective slo mo would be a game where normal, modern day bullets move slow enough so that their paths can be visible to the human eye, while normal human bystanders move at the same speed that they normally would.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

What it basically comes down to is that the calcs assume that everything is slowed down by the same factor. For example, if lightning is slowed down by a factor of 1 million, you can't just assume that everything else is slowed down by 1 million. There is nothing that proves or even implies this. Sure, the air blasts and attacks must be fast, but 1 million times faster is quite the stretch.

No it really doesn't. All it does is calculate the speed of the swing relative to the speed of the lightning. Literally the Lightning Feats page tells you to do so. The movement speed of anything else as it appears on sceen does not matter, we know that everything is being slowed down to differing degrees it has to be this way to be playable and not feel off-putting. And things aren't simply slowed down, things like gravity and rain seem to be working fine.

It's just that attack have to move at speed to which the player can react meaning that arrows get slowed down a few times and lightning is slowed a few... thousand times. But no one is saying that the arrows are moving at the speed of lightning because they require just as fast as reflexes. We are saying that these characters that cannonicaly can attack with lightning, react to lightning and dodge lightning can have their speed scaled off of the lightning's movent as portrait on sceen.

Mean that's just how it is, honestly the there's even worse examples that can be given, like you know those scenes where the character takes a solid minute to hit the ground after falling from a tall building. That clearly indicates that there's a slowdown effect but characters appear to move at normal speeds. If one is do a projectile dodging calc for one of these scenes, like dodging bulluts per say, they need not tale into account the slowdown effect, they just need find how much distance the characters moved compared to the bullets (that are accepted to move as fast as real life bullets of the same type).

 

[Jaakubb]

We are saying that these characters that cannonicaly can attack with lightning, react to lightning and dodge lightning can have their speed scaled off of the lightning's movent as portrait on sceen.

If one is do a projectile dodging calc for one of these scenes, like dodging bulluts per say, they need not tale into account the slowdown effect, they just need find how much distance the characters moved compared to the bullets (that are accepted to move as fast as real life bullets of the same type).

Neither calc involved dodging lightning.

 

[ByAsura]

Calc Stacking is using calculated values, such as Thor moving at trillions of times the speed of light, to compare with other calculations. For example, a character moves roughtly 4x Thor's speed based on pixel-scaling, so they're 4x faster than his afformentioned FTL feat. This is frowned upon because of how inconsistent characters can be in particular scenes and authors likely changing their characters' stats to fit the situation.

The speed of a bullet isn't based off in-verse calcs, it's based off real-life measurements. For example, a character could move 4 times the distance of a beam of light in the same amount of time through pixel-scaling, so they're 4x faster than light. If you want to say it's inconsistent with reality, then fine, but it's not calc stacking.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

What Asura says. In addition dodging is not require, you just need to be able to compare the movement speed of the character to that of the lightning. In fact the og calc had some problems and was redone as you can see in the comment section.

Also speaking from personal experience if you have bad enough timing the dragon can avoid your lightning attack provided you aren't locked on.

 

[KLOL506]

I've contacted Bambu about this thread just in case but Asura already explained what I was about to say.

 

[DMUA]

We also made a thread about how an attack's speed can be used as long as it remains consistent in it's speed, but I haven't seen that applied

The Divine dragon calc scales the speed of the sword relative to the speed of the lightning, so not really seeing that issue

 

[KLOL506]

Pretty sure it's in the rules now tho

 

[DMUA]

As in like, in practice

 

[KLOL506]

Ah. NVM then

 

[Jaakubb]

Fine, calc stacking isn't the right term. The thing is, for calcing movement speed by calcing its on screen movement in relation to another object with a determined speed is valid, then both things must have been established to be slowed down at by the same factor. There is no evidence for this. Slo mo effect to make things playable/watchable is extremely inconsistent. We can't just say that a normal human walking in with a slowed down (but still valid) laser in the background can move at a fraction of the speed of light. Or replace this with slowed down (but still valid) lightning if lasers aren't a good example.

 

[DMUA]

Arbitrarily picking what is and isn't slowed down doesn't make any sense. Like, just think about that

Why would they have the background just going slower than the foreground?

I'm trying to formulate a big explaination but this is the level of stuff that makes me draw total blanks

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

What do you mean there is no evidence for them being slowed down by the same factor, you are literally meant to be able to catch, redirect and dodge the lightning. Do you think they slowed down the lightning by a factor of a thousand and Wolf by only like a hundred. Why would they do that?

 

[KLOL506]

Assuming that things are even slowed down already doesn't make sense in the first place, especially when evidence points out otherwise.

In Bambu's words, the lightning is "just fast." There's no need to assume otherwise.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

Mean you are right, slowed down isn't the right way of saying it. It's just that something that something that should well over mach 1000 seems to be moving way slower because we need to be able press dodge before it hits us.

 

[Jaakubb]

Why would they have the background just going slower than the foreground?

So that they would be watchable. Isn't that obvious? If in my friend pedro for example, if EVERYTHING on the screen was slowed down by the same factor, while the bullets would be moving at a sort of fast rate, everybody would be moving/walking/aiming EXTREMELY slowly. I don't get what's so hard to understand. This is a thing very often used in fiction.

you are literally meant to be able to catch, redirect and dodge the lightning

Really? Doesn't the player just use their body to conduct the lightning? That doesn't require any movement. Stationary lightning rods can do this. I should probably watch the fight again.

Do you think they slowed down the lightning by a factor of a thousand and Wolf by only like a hundred. Why would they do that?

I dunno. Why not? Lightning is cool when slowed down. Slow mo cannot simply be assumed to be consistent.

 

[KLOL506]

Uh no, I watched that fight and he shoots beams of lightning towards the dragon and if you screw up you can actually get damaged by the lightning.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

What

about

this?

Is this not enough? This is real lightning. FromSoft placed it there knowing you can get hit and gave you the ability to dodge it in time.

 

[Jaakubb]

OK. Keep in mind that this is not just specific to that verse, it is more broad. I've seen this used before in an Undertale calc (which was discarded but for other reasons) and don't forget the touhou calc I mentioned.

I'll go see the fight again.

 

[KLOL506]

Also how does the slow-mo debunk the bullet-slicing-and-dodging stuff in the first place when we don't even use how slow the scene is going for all our speed calcs? We just use values of guns or other stuff from real life or confirmed statements and then use this formula:

(Speed of object or muzzle velocity*Distance moved or dodged by character) / Distance between gun's muzzle or the object you're trying to dodge

Literally no form of slow-mo is used with this formula.

 

[Jaakubb]

Slow-mo does not debunk bullet slicing and dodging. That is a strawma. My point is, you can't scale the speed something that doesn't even interact with the bullet (e.g. random bystander's walking speed). In the sekiro calc, the dragon's sword does not interact with the lightning iirc. If the dragon can block the lightning then the calc is fine. Or even then, we don't use kinetic energy calcs if they have no supporting feats iirc. This is the only calced 7-C feat in the sekiro verse. Still, my point still stands for other verses.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

But it does interact with Wolf who interacts with the Dragon, or does the slo-mo factor change just randomly from fight to fight.

 

[KLOL506]

Also Sekiro fought against Genichiro who can conduct natural lightning.

 

[DMUA]

So that they would be watchable. Isn't that obvious?

It would become very confusing very fast if they speed up one thing, slowed down another thing, and expected you to believe they are nowhere near the same level of speed. Cinematic Time isn't supposed to turn the screen into a temporal warp.

 

[Jaakubb]

Conducting lightning has nothing to do with reacting to it. A non sentient lightning pole can conduct lightning.


Also, for the cinematic time issue, I don't see how it's confusing. It would be confusing if they DIDN'T. Plus, it's been done many times before (hotline miami, my friend pedro, lots of others).

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

Conducting lightning has nothing to do with reacting to it. A non sentient lightning pole can conduct lightning.

DO YOU EVEN READ WHAT I WRITE!?