Question about this calc (Kinetic energy calcs based on onscreen speeds)

[DMUA]

Be more calm

That said, Sekiro literally can jump into the air, catch the lightning with his sword, and slam it down onto his enemy.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

I'm talking about the links he didn't click.

 

[KLOL506]

>conduct lightning

bruh, he takes damage from the lightning, he can't conduct it (Provided you do nothing about it in the game). He basically moves his sword towards the approaching lightning and then shoots it the dragon. He is absolutely not stationary when he's near it.

Also Tsar just posted the links of Sekiro dodging the lightning. Look at those first. Here, here and here

Or did me telling you that he dodged lightning from Genichiro prove nothing either

 

[Jaakubb]

Nvm I see it. Sekiro does react to lightning. Anyways, the does the dragon itself react to the lightning? The calc concludes that the dragon can swing its sword at MHS speeds. I still wrote this:

we don't use kinetic energy calcs if they have no supporting feats iirc. This is the only calced 7-C feat in the sekiro verse. Still, my point still stands for other verses.

But le't focus on the sekiro thing. If their is a reason why the dragon's sword is slowed down at exactly the same speed as the lightning then the calc is fine.

 

[KLOL506]

Apparently it does if you don't time the attack right and aren't locked on, like Tsar said.

 

[Jaakubb]

Apparently it does if you don't time the attack right and aren't locked on, like Tsar said.

Is that true? I'm not saying this is their entire argument, but missing=/=enemy blocking. If I can see a clip or article of this then the sekiro calc is fine.

 

[KLOL506]

Found it. Here at 5:50 (The dragon literally swings his sword at more or less the same time as Sekiro launches his lightning bolt, both receiving damage as a result AKA this is the result of timing attacks badly and you're better off timing it right if you don't wanna die too much)

 

[Jaakubb]

Are you talking about the part at the 5:05 mark or the 5:50 mark? In the former, sekiro doesn't take any damage and the sword is no where near the bolt if you watch at 0.25x. In the latter, the sword swing is a bit to the left and the dragon takes just as much damage as it normally would. Although the afterimage thingy of the swing goes through sekiro, it has no effect on the bolt, so I think it was a coincidence. I probably missed something in a frame though. Also, the bolt hits the dragon before the swing even finishes.

 

[Jaakubb]

I used watchframebyframe because I have a lot of free time (yeah I have finals but i only have 3 multiple choice tests and the classes are easy).


thingy at bottom center is sword


Before the shockwave that appears that actually is supposed to hit the player (the actual sword missed by a long shot), the dragon takes damage. Sekiro hasnt

sekiro is only hit AFTER the bolt hits. the dragon doesnt deflect.

 

[KLOL506]

5:50

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

Not exactly what I mean but it does show that the dragon was able to swing a solind 60 or so degrees before getting hit. Also the sword connects only 8 frames after that and is likely do to the headbox because Wolf was like 10 meters above the sword.

 

[Jaakubb]

It wasn't swinging in Reaction to the lightning bolt though. If a normal human in my friend pedro can walk a "solid foot or so before getting shot" that doesn't mean they're inhumanly fast.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

Your friend might be able to walk a solid foot before getting shot he would still get shot. But if he can walk a solid foot while the bullet is still traveling from the muzzle to his face then he would definetely be inhumanly fast.

 

[Jaakubb]

Examples of this happening where the person is NOT inhumanly fast due to inconsistent slow motion are in my friend pedro (flash game) and contra. You can't scale the enemies by how fast they walk compared to the bullets if they aren't even interacting with them. You'd be right if slow motion was always consistent at a given moment, but it often isn't.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

You'd be right if slow motion was always consistent at a given moment, but it often isn't.

What are talking about. The damn lighning in the game is the same asset being reused over and over again, it moves at the same speeds. The characters are also moving as fast as they would during any other sequence in the game, so I don't see how it can be inconsistent, again same animations being used over and over. Also did I mention that every second enemy in that area shoots lightning at you?

 

[Jaakubb]

I'm not saying that on screen speeds are inconsistent, I never said that, it's that the factor to which each thing is slowed down is inconsistent. For example, in the fight:

Lightning is slowed down significantly

Sekiro is slowed down by a factor comparable to that of the lightning

Gravity is not slowed down at all

The sword swing is not slowed down at all (at least there isn't any evidence pointing to it)

"One should not assume that cinematic time is consistent in any way. Hence, calculating how much slower/faster cinematic time is compared to the actual time in the work and applying that to ratio to another instance is not a legitimate method to determine the actual time-frames in a piece of work."

"Even if the events are right after each other, cinematic time doesn't have to necessarily be consistent in any manner. In the scene described, the movement of the character might not be depicted with the same perception time as the light before. In this case, rule #7 would come into effect.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

1st quote: It means that you are not allowed to measure the factor in one scene and then apply it to another scene, nothing to do with this battle that can be considered on whole giant scene.

2nd quote: The time is consistent as no matter what you say the player, the enemies, the lightning and anything else that repeats the same animations again will move at the same speed on screen because the actions they perform are literally the same always. Sekiro doesn't make use of any Matrix style slow-mo. The fact that it's a game actually helps it when it comes to cinematic timing.

And who consideres gravity? Of course it's inconsistent, you are able to hover in the air for a short time with some mechanics even and I think lightning happens to be one of them.

 

[KLOL506]

Pretty sure most of the lightning dodging feats to my knowledge have so far not involved slow-mo, and Sekiro Shadows Die Twice doesn't use it: PERIOD.

 

[Jaakubb]

So sekiro doesn't use slo mo? Then why don't we use the actual on screen speed of the sword swing? I'm not talking about the whole screen being slowed down, I'm talking about individual objects being slowed down, which is often inconsistent, as seen in the my friend pedro flash game and contra.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

I wonder if you even bothered to read the Cinematic Time page. It's not the same as slow-mo. Also you can determine the factor because the speed of object appears the same on screen always in Sekiro you can just measure how much slower lightning appears to be to get the factor and it would yield the same results as the actual calc you have a problem with.

And if you think the dragon should't be comparable to the lightning when he's comperable to Sekiro who can easily catch and throw back natural lightning idk what to tell you.

 

[KLOL506]

Ugarik already calc'd it doe.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

Yeah I know, I'm saying that using that slow-mo method would be essentially the same.

 

[Jaakubb]

Fine. I called it slo mo when it should be cinematic times because this wiki is full of stupid jargon. Anyways, you can't determine the slow down factor of the sword because it is not given. Default by Occam's razor is zero. Since there's no evidence, the sword is assumed to be moving at full speed.

And no, the dragon's swing speed is not comparable to sekiro's speed. sekiro can easily dodge every one of the dragon's attacks, and even though he gets hit sometimes, a human can get hit by balls thrown at them by other humans if they're not careful enough.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

If I throw a ball it will reach the end of the room faster than I can. And the dragon can swing his sword and hit you mid air before your lightning reaches him.

 

[Jaakubb]

Yes but you can dodge or block faster than the ball. You know what, it's not even the ball that matters. My point is that just because someone can hit someone else a few times if they're lucky doesn't mean they are comparable in speed to them.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

But in this case they are. There is absolutely nothing to indicate the contrary, why would the dragon and Wolf not be comparable in speed, to begin with the only reason as to why you can hit him with the lightning is because he's largly stationary and and has a habit of getting his face an inch away from your sword, if he could move away from the tree there would be no hitting it.

At this point I'm convinced that you haven't played Sekiro, not even a little bit.

 

[Jaakubb]

I don't have to indicate the contrary. The burden of proof is on someone who is making a positive claim (you), not a negative one (me).

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

The burden of proof is something that often gets misinterpreted. If the buren was solely on the making a possitive claim that they can just change the wording of the claim to make it a negative. "The Divine Dragon is not slower than Wolf" is a negative claim and thus need not be proven...

Uther bullshit! The burden of proof fall on he who makes the claim challenging the default position. In this case said position is that Wolf and the Dragon are comparable to one another in speed and can be scaled off of lighning. As the one making the claim that this is false you are the one who has the burden of proving it so.

 

[Jaakubb]

How is "wolf and dragon are comparable to one another in speed" the default position? Also, the burden of proof lies on one who is making a claim that disputes the default position, it can also lie on the person making a negative claim (i was wrong in my previous description).

You are making the claim that "wolf and drago are comparable in speed" while I am not making a claim about their speed at all. Because of Occam's razor, we simply go for the interpretation that makes the least assumptions which would be considered default (dragon attacks slower than wolf) because there is no evidence for either "wolf and dragon are comparable in speed" or "dragon attacks much more slowly than wolf."

 

[Jaakubb]

Bruhmp

 

[Jaakubb]

bump

 

[Ugarik]

I agree with op and don't like idea of comparing velocities on screen and then calculating AP or lifting strength from KE or acceleration but that's how things work on this wiki.

I recalced the feat conparing speed of the sword to an actual narutal lightning instead of an electric charge by the way

 

[KLOL506]

That wasn't the thing he was initially talking about tho.

He was questioning the legitimacy of dodging bullets and having your movement speed being scaled to them.

 

[Jaakubb]

That wasn't the thing he was initially talking about tho.
He was questioning the legitimacy of dodging bullets and having your movement speed being scaled to them.

No I wasn't. Sekiro scales to dragon, who scales to his ap because of a kinetic energy calc that was based on the assumption that the dragon and the lightning were slowed down by the same factor. This would be somewhat reasonable IF the dragon reacted to the lightning AT ALL. Dodging bullets is ok because the person is dodging the bullet. The dragon never dodges the bolt, or blocks it. The only way it interacts with the lightning is by getting hit and anyone can do that.

Basically this is what I think:

If the onscreen object and the character do not interact, then kinetic energy cannot be calced by ratio'ing their onscreen speeds. If we ignore this, then random fodder contra enemies' walking speeds would scale to bullets, or normal human bystanders in other games where bullets are slowed down (not as in bullet time like in the matrix) scaling to supersonic.

If the onscreen object and the character DO interact, but the onscreen object's speed was calced in a different calc before, you cannot ratio the onscreen speeds because that is calc stacking. However, I think that you CAN say that the character's speed scales to the moving object's speed (if it's at a reasonably close range or whatever).

If the onscreen object and the character DO interact and the onscreen object's speed is given (e.g. lightning) then ratio'ing can be used, like with some gungeon calcs that have been done (i dont remember them off the top of my head). However, the sekiro calc does NOT fall under this category because as I said earlier, the dragon does not block or dodge the lightning.

 

[KLOL506]

Ah. NVM then.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

...hmm.

 

[Antvasima]

You can ask a few calc group members to comment here if you wish.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I don't see an issue. We aren't inconsistent about how we apply this. If something is provably what we say it is (for example, cloud-to-ground lightning, or lasers having the properties of actual lasers), we use it. That's how it's been and how it should be.

Thing 1 moves at known speed. Thing 2 moves next to Thing 1 at different speed. Compare to get speed of Thing 2.

 

[Jaakubb]

I don't see an issue. We aren't inconsistent about how we apply this. If something is provably what we say it is (for example, cloud-to-ground lightning, or lasers having the properties of actual lasers), we use it. That's how it's been and how it should be.
Thing 1 moves at known speed. Thing 2 moves next to Thing 1 at different speed. Compare to get speed of Thing 2.

I'm fine with the first part but not the second part. The factor of how objects are slowed down onscreen is extremely inconsistent, even at one moment. For example, in contra, the bullets are slowed down a lot but the enemies likely aren't slowed down at all. This is all in one moment. It'd be fine if thing 2 is actively interacting with/reacting to thing 1 though.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

At that point you're suggesting the alternative of just picking and choosing based purely on arbitrary personal opinion on what should and shouldn't be considered the speed it actually is. And, for the record, the Sekiro calc does actually have them interacting with the lightning. By physically touching it.