Question about this calc (Kinetic energy calcs based on onscreen speeds)

[Jaakubb]

At that point you're suggesting the alternative of just picking and choosing based purely on arbitrary personal opinion on what should and shouldn't be considered the speed it actually is.

No, I'm suggesting we pick based on occam's razor. The default position is that the object on the screen is not slowed down at all because it makes the least assumptions. If we have information that suggests the contrary (e.g. the dragon reacts to the lightning) then we can safely assume it is slowed down.

And, for the record, the Sekiro calc does actually have them interacting with the lightning. By physically touching it.

Yes, Sekiro can react to lightning. However, the dragon only gets hit by the lightning. Thus, there's nothing suggesting that the dragon is slowed down. Anyone can do that. I probably should've said "reacting to" not "interacting with."

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

At that point you're suggesting the alternative of just picking and choosing based purely on arbitrary personal opinion on what should and shouldn't be considered the speed it actually is.

No, I'm suggesting we pick based on occam's razor. The default position is that the object on the screen is not slowed down at all because it makes the least assumptions. If we have information that suggests the contrary (e.g. the dragon reacts to the lightning) then we can safely assume it is slowed down.

Nothing suggests the contrary. How would the dragon reacting to it suggest it?

 

[Jaakubb]

The dragon reacting to it suggests it because in situations where things are slowed down, characters that react to the slowed down object are slowed down themselves. For example, we can tell that the player character in contra is being slowed down because he is able to dodge bullets. However the same does not apply to the enemies.

The default position is that the dragon's sword swing is NOT slowed down because it makes the least assumptions.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

The default assumption is that everything is slowed down by the same factor if it is even slowed down.

 

[Jaakubb]

OK, I guess this is good because this really is what matters here. This was going around in circles because I honestly didn't know how to phrase the problem.

Anyways, everything being slowed down by the exact same factor is EXTREMELY rare if there is any slowing down. For example, bulma is able to watch saiyans fight and she can move around at normal speed while at the same time saiyans are extremely slowed down. Also, again in contra fodder enemies can walk at a significant fraction of the speed of the bullets. However, the enemies obviously don't scale to this.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

Then Bulma and those enemies are not slowed down while the bullets and saiyans are. The former two don't need to be slowed down because they move at perceivable speeds while the latter two need to be otherwise you can't see them.

 

[Jaakubb]

Then Bulma and those enemies are not slowed down while the bullets and saiyans are.

Yes. That is an example of slowing down being inconsistent at one moment. Reminder that the definition of inconsistent is "not staying the same throughout."

The former two don't need to be slowed down because they move at perceivable speeds while the latter two need to be otherwise you can't see them.

You just explained why the dragon wouldn't need to be slowed down (because he moves at perceivable speeds). Yes, I know that "dragon moves at perceivable speeds" is a claim in and of itself but it is the default position as it makes the least assumptions. Don't tell me you see a character in a game and automatically assume it can swing a sword at massively hypersonic speeds.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

Really now? He swings his sword so fast he creates a shock wave that can be seen taking several seconds to cross the screen and you say he ain't slowed down? And just because not all characters are slowed down by the same facto doesn't mean that the same characters are slowed down by different factors in different scenes (especially in video games where the characters appear to move at the same speeds all the time).

 

[Jaakubb]

Really now? He swings his sword so fast he creates a shock wave that can be seen taking several seconds to cross the screen and you say he ain't slowed down?

I'm saying he's not slowed down to the factor assumed in the calc. Even if he's slowed down, we can't just assume it's by a MILLION TIMES or whatever the factor was. Suppose the dragon was slowed down by a factor of two. What's closer to two, one or ONE MILLION? Also, an airplane flying at supersonic speeds (much slower than massively hypersonic) can create a shockwave.

And just because not all characters are slowed down by the same facto doesn't mean that the same characters are slowed down by different factors in different scenes

I don't get why you keep bringing up how fast sekiro moves in other scenes. I agree that sekiro moves at lightning speed. However, I'm saying that the dragon is not slowed down to the exact same factor that sekiro is. Basically sekiro=very fast and dragon=fast but not NEARLY as fast as sekiro.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

A plane creates a sonic boom, what the dragon does is swing his sword so fast he creates a shockwave in the form of a 10 meter collum of air that is sent towards you with such intensity that it almost kills you. Again you seem to not have played Sekiro.

And what I was saying is that the swings of any given character take just as long to perform in one scene as they do in another meaning they are probably slowed down by a consistent factor. And I don't see how the dragon can only move at lets say supersonic speeds and be able to hit Wolf who is MHS.

 

[Jaakubb]

A plane creates a sonic boom, what the dragon does is swing his sword so fast he creates a shockwave in the form of a 10 meter collum of air that is sent towards you with such intensity that it almost kills you. Again you seem to not have played Sekiro.

I am 1000000000000000000% sure that the dragon could do that swinging his sword at a speed less than massively hypersonic. Maybe just hypersonic (I'm exaggerating, but this is still much less than the speed of lightning). Keep in mind that generating shockwaves doesn't necessarily require pushing air. Shockwaves could've just been produced by the sword itself like a speaker produces sound.

And what I was saying is that the swings of any given character take just as long to perform in one scene as they do in another meaning they are probably slowed down by a consistent factor

Yeah, I agree. Sekiro himself is slowed down by a consistent factor. In the fight, sekiro is slowed down by whatever huge factor was determined. However, the DIFFERENT things on the screen OTHER THAN sekiro are slowed down by inconsistent factors.

And I don't see how the dragon can only move at lets say supersonic speeds and be able to hit Wolf who is MHS

He can only hit him because: His sword is large as **** The player isn't paying attention Sekiro is physically unable to dodge because he's in the middle of an attack There are many examples of fast characters being hit by slow stuff.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

Sure it could be just air magic or what not but that last part I have to disagree on. All you do during the fight is dodge until you get the chance to lightning him (because FromSoft dragons hate lightning even if they breathe it). You have to put active effort into avoiding it as running is barely enough for the swing to miss by a hair.

 

[Jaakubb]

Of course you have to put effort into dodging a giant sword.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

That sword gets swung in a 100 meter arc in the time it takes you to make a few steps. It's obvious that on screen it swords is moving way faster than Wolf.

 

[Jaakubb]

Wolf doesn't have travel speed as fast as mhs though. He can still dodge though at mhs. Dodging is much faster than running in many cases.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

I've tried dodging in Sekiro, it sucks. It's the worst dodge in SoulsBorne, often running is better. Simply put there isn't much of a discrepancy between the two in terms of speed, the difference is in mechanics.

 

[Jaakubb]

Try dodging lightning by running. Does that work? It has no iframes but it's still fast enough to dodge lightning right?

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

Yes, the lightning in the Fountainhead Palace gives and indicator i.e. it light up the spot where it's gonna strike so if said indicator just spawns on top of you while you're running you can just keep running and you'll run past it. I think it's shown pretty well in the gif links from before that the dodge isn't much faster than running, at most it's like 50% faster.

 

[Antvasima]

@Mr. Bambu

What do you think that we should do here?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Frankly? This comes down to a matter of opinion, it seems like. I'm of the opinion that current standards are reasonable enough. Getting into the specifics of the Sekiro calc sorta drags attention away from the actual point, so I won't bother indulging that facet of the discussion any more.

The whole thing boils down to do you think we can compare on-screen entities that don't directly interact with one another. The opinion that we shouldn't seems mighty arbitrary to me, but it is an opinion.

So, put simply, I think standards are fine as is. Others may disagree.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I trust your sense of judgement.

 

[Jaakubb]

I'd say the opinion that we shouldn't is based on the fact that the slowdown of on screen objects is extremely inconsistent even in one moment. For example, in contra, fodder enemies are not slowed down at all but at the same time bullets are very slowed down.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Portrayal of all speeds in fiction is inconsistent. Cutting it off arbitrarily at this point seems like putting in a fraction of the work to address an issue with no clear answer.

 

[Ugarik]

If portrayal of all speeds is inconsistent then why do we always pick the highest one and then use it to scale everything else even if it contradicts with everything we see.

Calculating KE of that sword by comparing its velocity to a natural lightning is extremely weird. This is like saying every fodder and non combat character in the verse has class M lifting strength because if we calculate how fast characters accelerate towards the ground then they fall using the lightning speed we will get a several thousand g gravity.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

We don't always pick the highest one? If you showed me a dude running next to a car, I'd find a relatively average speed of said car to use in comparison. You're addressing an issue that doesn't exist.

Because it is natural lightning. But alright. Thank you for your opinion. Once again, in case people failed to read it:

Getting into the specifics of the Sekiro calc sorta drags attention away from the actual point, so I won't bother indulging that facet of the discussion any more.
	~ Me​

 

[Jaakubb]

It's not an arbitrary point (technically it is but it is way less arbitrary than some of the other methods we use). Only scaling with onscreen speeds when the objects interact is pretty reasonable because it has a VERY strong correlation with the character being intended to react to the object in fiction and vice versa.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Something something since when is it okay to use authorial intent when we have literally pointed out time and time again how that doesn't work.

It is an arbitrary point. You are arbitrarily deciding when we should consider something to move the speed it moves at on the sole basis that it didn't touch/be dodged by/etc the character in question.

 

[Jaakubb]

Fine. Replace "character being intended to react to the object" with "it being reasonable that the character reacted to and moved at a comparable speed to the object." We ignore the law of conservation of energy because it is almost never accounted for in fiction (not disputing that, it's fine). Likewise, the onscreen speeds are almost never calcable if the two objects don't interact or dodge/whatever. For example, a human bystander in a game where bullets are slowed down to the point where you can see the bullets move. And I'm NOT talking about bullet time. What i mean is where projectiles that are normally fast are shown moving slowly, like the dragonslayer arrow in dark souls being slowed down while hollows are moving as fast as they normally would. There's also the gravity argument that Ugarik brought up earlier, the contra example that I gave earlier, and the dragonball example I gave earlier.

Examples that prove the other part of it (they dodge and react to the object and it is reasonable that they are comparable in speed to them) are when characters respond to and dodge bullets, they are actually supposed to be supersonic/subsonic/whatever speed range include dodgers in hotline miami dodging bullets even though they don't move at supersonic speeds onscreen (I'm saying the calc is valid because they dodged) and doomguy avoiding arrows and rockets.

Also, could you explain that author's intent thing? Do we not care about author's intent at all or?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

That's the same thing and it meets the same issues. You've mentally decided that characters must interact with a thing to compare to a thing's speed when that isn't the case. Also like... those two things aren't equivalent. Because you're right, law of conservation of energy is a thing I've literally never seen in fiction, whereas you merely decide that characters are never shown at speeds comparative to other things on screen when many times they are. Hence it is an opinion, not at all like the actual fact of your comparison. Your examples mean very little other than giving examples of times when things moved next to fast things.

We don't care about author intent because the author and the work they produced is separate. Look up Death of the Author for a general idea on the philosophy behind it.

 

[Jaakubb]

You've mentally decided that characters must interact with a thing to compare to a thing's speed when that isn't the case.

Just because it's partly subjective doesn't mean it's not valid. It's about what character is stronger than another (oversimplified but yeah) so of course it's subjective.

whereas you merely decide that characters are never shown at speeds comparative to other things on screen when many times they are. Hence it is an opinion, not at all like the actual fact of your comparison. Your examples mean very little other than giving examples of times when things moved next to fast things.

I'm not saying that characters are never shown at speeds comparative to other things on screen. I'm saying that characters are never shown at speed comparative to other things on screen specifically when they're not interacting (I'm using this as a really broad term). And the examples aren't just examples of times when things moved next to fast things. It's MUCH more than that. They're examples of times where the portrayal of speed isn't consistent even at one point. I really hope I don't have to explain why. The article on cinematic time says that the portrayal of speed isn't consistent within one work, and I'm just proposing that we should extend that to portrayal of speed not being consistent at one moment. That's all I want, because it would logically lead to the calcs being invalid.

About the author thing, if two interpretations are equally probable and the author chooses one, I think we should choose that one. But we already do that with word of god right? Although I don't really have a strong opinion on author intent stuff, I'm open to both sides.

 

[Antvasima]

Mr. Bambu seems to make sense to me.

 

[Ugarik]

Would you accept a calc that gets 10000 times gravity in a particular world because lightnings are portrayed inconsistently slow there? Because that's exactly what we are doing

 

[Antvasima]

No I would not. Sorry if I have misunderstood and made a mistake then.

 

[Ugarik]

It was a question for Mr. Bambu. Sorry for not pointing that out

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Would you accept a calc that gets 10000 times gravity in a particular world because lightnings are portrayed inconsistently slow there? Because that's exactly what we are doing

I accept what the show portrays as acceptable within it. If it portrays something as moving at considerable speed next to lightning, then I accept the consequences of that on our side.

 

[Keeweed]

How would the speed of lightning effect gravity, and why would gravity be heavier if lightning was moving slower. That seems like a non sequitur.

Now maybe the point is just going over my head, and honestly I'm not important in this conversation at all, but I'm so confused by that statement.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

He's saying that if compare the speed of lightning to the speed at which the character is falling you'll get ridiculous results. But honestly I don't think you are allowed to just measure gravity like that.

 

[Antvasima]

@Ugarik

No problem.

 

[Jaakubb]

Would you accept a calc that gets 10000 times gravity in a particular world because lightnings are portrayed inconsistently slow there? Because that's exactly what we are doing

I accept what the show portrays as acceptable within it. If it portrays something as moving at considerable speed next to lightning, then I accept the consequences of that on our side.

"Portrays as acceptable" is just as if not more subjective and arbitrary than what I'm proposing. Also, why is "moving at considerable speed next to" a better requirement than "reacting to or interacting with"?

But honestly I don't think you are allowed to just measure gravity like that.

But what exactly is the reason why we can't (I agree with ugarik, just a rhetorical question)? We have to be consistent, so how come we reject the aforementioned gravity calcs but accept the onscreen kinetic energy calcs when the latter makes no more sense than the former?

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

Well, the gravitational acceleration on Earth is 9.8 m/s^2 per second and should be assumed to be as such if there isn't a legitimate reason as for why it wouldn't be, like being on another planet or such. If you could just calculate the speed of something like that you can do it for everything - bullets, vehicles, attacks etc. Those results can then later be used to perform what is essentially calc stacking as you are using a calculated speed for an object, that you derived by comparing it to something really fast, to measure something else. If that is allowed why not just allow calculating the speed needed to blitz a character that has been calculated to be MHS? Because it's calc stacking even if it's not a character's speed that you are using.