Question about GotG 2: Is ego's avatar really moon lvl?

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Krukov

Not Thor, the Guardians of the Galaxy. The problem is that they are ranked at only Subsonic when Rocket and Star-Lord can either pilot a double-digit Mach ship through a quantum-asteroid field, and they use Mach 21+ Jetpacks in combat.

 

[LordXcano]

"Once again, we have evidence that it is moving at more than the 100 m/s you insist, Xcano."

Where? Where is the evidence they were moving at Mach 20 during the combat scenes.

"These are spaceships capable of leaving and entering orbits in seconds, they are at least faster than Escape Velocity at full-speed."

You don't have to reach escape velocity to leave a planet.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The evidence is that the jetpacks they use can at the very least move at Mach 21+ speeds and they use them to dash, dodge and quickly maneuver in combat, thus mach 21+ Combat and Reaction Speeds.

And once again, the very feat of entering and leaving a planet debunks the ship only being 100 m/s, the specific speed isn't so much important here but rather the fact that you are wrong in saying that it's only that slow.

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

Well, they did manage to escape from the core of the planet to the ship in a very limited time frame. I can't remember if they outran the explosion or not but my memory of the film is a little fuzzy so I'm unfortunately of not much help.

Where they able to dodge lasers/projectiles from the enemy ships (from the gold people).

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Krukov

Yes they could, and even then they spend the majority of the timeframe fighting Ego so Mach 21 is a low-end.

And yeah, Rocket was fleeing from the ships at top speed, avoiding enemy fire and also the asteroids. The ship's top speed also scales to his reactions.

 

[LordXcano]

"The evidence is that the jetpacks they use can at the very least move at Mach 21+ speeds and they use them to dash, dodge and quickly maneuver in combat, thus mach 21+ Combat and Reaction Speeds."

No, they move "at the very least" 0 m/s. The fact the jetpacks can move at Mach 21 isn't evidence they are always moving at Mach 21 or that the Guardians wouldn't slow down to avoid crashing. This point relies on circular reasoning, that being:

• The Guardians have Mach 20 reactions

• The Guardians have Mach 20 reactions because they fly Mach 20 jetpacks

• They did not just fly at a slower speed to avoid crashing because they have Mach 20 reactions and that is safe for them

• They have Mach 20 reactions because they can fly Mach 20 jetpacks

"And once again, the very feat of entering and leaving a planet debunks the ship only being 100 m/s"

How?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It's not circular reasoning. It's simply properly applying a feat, that the Jetpacks can reach Mach 21, to the characters' using the Jetpacks in combat. It's more unreasonable to simply assume that they would use lower speeds to not crash, or rather ignore the feat.

"How?"

Please tell me you are joking there. You absolutely cannot believe that a spaceship is only 100 m/s as you insist when it holds speeds capable of planetary entry and exit in mere seconds. Those sorts of speeds denote double-digit Mach speeds for the spaceship.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

As someone who is not a moderator nor has a bias (that I am aware of) towards or against any of you, Xcano is looking extremely immature and childish here. Many of the listed arguments are fallicious for aforementioned reasons, and sometimes you have to bite the bullet and accept that you are not right, or, even if you personally don't agree, go with what the vast majority of other well-informed people have decided upon. I personally think Amo should be Low 2-C rather than 3-A but I am alone in that (to my knowledge) and Ant told me the contrary, so I accept that judgement and move on.

I think it comes down to perspective and respect at this point.

 

[LordXcano]

"It's not circular reasoning. It's simply properly applying a feat, that the Jetpacks can reach Mach 21, to the characters' using the Jetpacks in combat. It's more unreasonable to simply assume that they would use lower speeds to not crash, or rather ignore the feat."

Why? This is for both statements. Why isn't it circular reasoning, and why is it unreasonable to assume they are moving as fast as they are shown to be moving?

"Please tell me you are joking there. You absolutely cannot believe that a spaceship is only 100 m/s as you insist when it holds speeds capable of planetary entry and exit in mere seconds."

Okay I see what you mean here. Could you show a scene where they exited atmosphere in seconds? Preferably without a cut to prove it wasn't cinematic timing?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Because you cannot use apparent speed as an argument, as people have exhaustively told you already.

If we have a feat of speed for something, we can apply it to say something. It's more unreasonable to suggest that it can only reach said speeds under a certain method, or worse "It only reached Mach 20 in one scene" as if that means it can't in others.

I can't show scenes because the movie isn't on DVD yet, but it does happen all the time. The spaceships have the speed to do this, which is why insisting that they are only 100 m/s is ridiculous.

 

[LordXcano]

"Because you cannot use apparent speed as an argument, as people have exhaustively told you already."

They said that, I replied, they never replied to the counterpoint. Basically it went like this:

* "Then X person wouldn't be supersonic"

* They would, as they did it on their own power and have numerous indications they are moving at FTE speeds

* "no reply"

And that was the whole debate.

"If we have a feat of speed for something, we can apply it to say something. It's more unreasonable to suggest that it can only reach said speeds under a certain method, or worse "It only reached Mach 20 in one scene" as if that means it can't in others."

Not saying it can't reach Mach 20 in others, moreso there's no indication it did and no reason for it to anyway.

Like. Say Spider-Man dodges a bullet, then someone punches him. We know that person can hit faster than Spidey's reactions, as Spidey has shown both the reaction time and the acceleration to dodge a bullet.

But a jetpack reaching supersonic speed over an unknown period of time and then someone tagging the Guardians isn't evidence that that thing has supersonic reactions. The jetpack hasn't shown the acceleration to reach supersonic speed in an instant and the Guardians haven't shown reaction times that would suggest tagging them is anything incredibly impressive.

Now, had they said something like "Even at top speed I can't avoid this guy"? I'd be fine with this. 100%. We'd have an indication that things are happening massively faster than it appears. But as it is, there isn't any of that. The jetpacks haven't shown the acceleration indicating that and the Guardians haven't shown the reactions indicating that.

If you would like, I ca calculate the minimum acceleration the jetpacks were undergoing in the scene where they exited the Moon. From there I can get a rough estimate of how fast they'd be moving during the fight scenes with the monster and we could tentatively place their speed as "At least [Whatever I get]".

"I can't show scenes because the movie isn't on DVD yet, but it does happen all the time."

There's GotG1 on DVD, you could probably find a movie hosting website for GotG2 at this point, and there's plenty of clips on YouTube.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Xcano

Now you are just strawmaning everyone who disagrees with you.

Once again, you cannot use visual indications to determine speed. And once again you bring up acceleration when it has never been a thing for no reason other than to make the end-result slower. The Jetpacks don't need to show the acceleration you're requiring when they really don't require any acceleration to reach Mach 20 speeds in the end of the movie.

And I wouldn't want you calculating this. I wouldn't trust your calculation given how against the upgrades you are.

 

[LordXcano]

"And I wouldn't want you calculating this. I wouldn't trust your calculation given how against the upgrades you are."

You could just check the numbers yourself. It's 2 steps and 2 equations. I actually went ahead and did a rough napkin math one while you writing this.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The first problem is that you are starting at the assumption of acceleration when they don't need any.

 

[Arigarmy]

Saying you wouldn't want him calculating it isn't going to exactly stop him from doing the calculation in the first place.

 

[LordXcano]

"The first problem is that you are starting at the assumption of acceleration when they don't need any."

Everything needs acceleration unless it has literally infinite force behind it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

That's obviously not what I mean. What I mean is that assuming the minimal possible acceleration is factually incorrect going by what's on screen.

 

[LordXcano]

I don't think you can first argue that what's on screen isn't reliable and then say what's on screen is now reliable and they have near instant acceleration. Especially when what's on screen shows Yondu moving at like 3 m/s upwards then mariculously increasing to enough speed to escape the moon in minutes.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

That's not at all what I argued. What I said is that in the ending scenes we see the characters don't spend the entirety of the flight duration accelerating like you are suggesting.

Which is why assuming such would be wrong.

 

[LordXcano]

I'm not saying they accelerated during the fight scenes (well, they do but that's beside the point) I was saying that in the Mach 20 case we can directly observe they were, otherwise it would've taken Yondu hours to leave Ego.

This would give us the acceleration for the jetpacks when being pushed as hard as they can, and from there the speed of the characters during their dodges and such (assuming they were undergoing similar acceleration).

So, for example, lets say Yondu would need to accelerate at an average of 450 m/s^2 to escape Ego, just as a hypothetical. If the Guardians accelerate that much over a distance of 5 meters to dodge that monster in the beginning that gives them a speed of 67 m/s, which we could scale to their reactions.

Again, this is just a hypothetical. It could be higher since Yondu didn't really have 4 minutes to escape Ego, more like 1 minute or even 30 seconds.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am generally leaning towards agreeing with Matthew and WeeklyBattles, but do not appreciate any disparaging comments towards LordXcano.

Perhaps we could let him calculate the speed feat as he wishes, and see what the results are, as a compromise solution?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Another question, but didn't Yondu's arrow move so fast it caught fire, at one point?

 

[LordXcano]

Azzy brings up a point. I don't think it ever caught fire, but the speed at which it was moving through the ship was definitely around the speed of sound, and Taserface dodged that thing going (presumably) top speed straight down a hall. That would be worth calc'ing.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I think that might have been the scene actually, but I'd have to find the clip.