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Question about GotG 2: Is ego's avatar really moon lvl?

Well, due to the sheer amount of hundreds of writers that have portrayed the characters extremely differently, Marvel and DC do in fact tend to be far more inconsistent than most other franchises.

In addition, technically speaking we should logically rate all our franchises in terms of if characters can simply fly in a straight line over interstellar disrances, with nothing to maneuver between, or if they can actually react to and avoid nearby objects while travelling at those speeds. However, for practical reasons in terms of the required amount of work with such widespread revisions, and the massive backlash it would provoke, we do not do so.

Also, we do in fact give the Marvel and DC characters extremely high speed ratings, likely far too high for several Marvel powerhouses without the ability to fly.

As for combat speed, it is not uncommon that it is portrayed as far higher than running speed in fiction overall.
 
"Well, due to the sheer amount of hundreds of writers that have portrayed the characters extremely differently, Marvel and DC do in fact tend to be far more inconsistent than most other franchises."

Except that writers for comics are required to read all previous runs of that character before starting. And there are editors who's job is to make things consistency. And Marvel and DC always get huge backlash when major contradictions to the plot happen and they often do storylines to retcon things and attempt to fix the plot.

Marvel and DC are no more inconsistent than any long-running franchise such as Doctor Who, Supernatural, Warhammer 40K or One Piece. Yet I never see the argument of inconsistency applied to them.

This notion that if say, an anime character showcases a feat once it is 100% legitimate and can be scaled to everyone and their grandmother, while comicbook characters are expected to perform a feat in every other issue or else it's "unreliable" is a very terrible bias that we have to get rid of to progress as a wiki.

In fact, something like the manga Bleach is generally far more inconsistent and has more problematic powerscaling than the entirety of the 60s - 2000s run of Fantastic Four.

"As for combat speed, it is not uncommon that it is portrayed as far higher than running speed in fiction overall."

If that is the case, then why when whenever a comicbook character showcases MFTL+ feats by crossing intergalactic distances, they dismissis it as travel speed?

People often bring up "characters moving in straight lines" but this legit never happens. Characters such as Thor and Silver Surfer can fully perceive what happens when flying, make quick turns and maneuvers and the later has galactic cosmic senses that collaborate for reactions comparable to his speed. They also can fight people while flying.

However, I do agree that some of the Marvel chars shouldn't be ranked at Massively FTL+ speeds. That is a result of the whole notion of using Handbooks to scale, by the way, so it isn't my fault, but rather a consequence of the faulty notions we apply to Marvel.
 
1) The Marvel and DC writers are not required to read all previous runs, which would involve thousands of issues, and recurrently don't care at all about keeping the relative power-scaling remotely straight, nor do the editors care more about this than simply keeping the stories entertaining and the popular writers happy enough to continue working for them.

Again, there is a major difference between a single writer making mistakes due to story reasons, such as for One Piece, and literally hundreds of writers inescapably turning into a huge mess of contradictory approaches.

I actually have read thousands upon thousands of Marvel and DC comicbooks, and this is a major problem in lots of them, especially when writers such as Brian Bendis are involved.

I would also appreciate if you stop constantly bringing up this issue, as it is turning annoying and festers dissent for our policies.

2) We do not dismiss it as merely travel speed. We simply preferred to get proof that they can react to other objects while flying at such speeds.

3) Actually we currently do not scale the MFTL+ powerhouse characters by the handbooks, but by who they can consistently keep up with. However, by this logic we would end up with MFTL+ values for every single Marvel character, which also illustrates point #1.
 
i remember ego saying he formed the earth layerby layer. i think he did this by using that blue energy he creates therefore it is mass energy conversion,.

he said that the planet is no larger than the moon so 7*10^22kg which gives 6.3*10^39joules which is dwarf star level. not sure though
 
Sorry if I missed something, but egos profile is now a little bit weird. He has multi-city-block stricking strength but moon ap. And why dont we have the key: Avatar / Full Body anymore ?

His Avatar should be around Building to Multi-city-block level (for crashing through several structures with peter) and his full body should have have moon level.

Peter should be scaled to egos avatar, not to Egos full body, since he only knew how to use his power to that extent in a short period of time. Furthermore his power basically came from Ego or was reliant on ego. Moon level seems far to high, since he never showed a feat like this and the terraforming was done by ego not by peter. He just used peter as a battery and moon level woud be peters potential power, which he never explored.
 
Ego doesn't use the energy of his entire world (nor is that quantifiable anyway). He uses his energy which he keeps in the core of the world.

As for the speed stuff, we went over that before. We can quantify that they were only moving at about 100 m/s through the asteroid field (which would be a minor upgrade I think), Thor's hammer is shown to return faster than he throws it in the same scene with the MHS feat (it doesn't break the sound barrier til it starts to return to him), and the jetpacks are never shown as moving at Mach 20 bar the single escape scene.

And anyway, Ego should be "at most Moon level" if we are going to use the logic of "he made a Moon" regardless of timeframe. He says it is "no bigger than" our Moon, which means it's less than or equal to our Moon in size.
 
No bigger then means equal, we already went over this.

So what? Because we do see a speed feat in a single instance it's getting discounted? That's insanely hypocritical for this site.

Very apples and oranges comparison, we're talking two different movies with a huge difference in release date with two different characters.
 
No, we said it means it's comparable. Grammatically, it means less than or equal to. I doubt he means it's a km in size, it definitely is comparable to the Moon. But how much comparable is in question, hence "at most".

There's a difference when a character moves at a certain speed on their own volition and when they are piloting something at a speed we have no indication they can react to.

What do you mean with the last bit? I was addressing the part about how it's ridiculous to assume Thor's hammer moves at different speeds even though we have been shown on-screen that it moves at different speeds when being thrown and returning.
 
Xcano, everyone but you eagreed with placing Ego at Moon level for the fact that he can manipulate his entire Moon-sized body at once and uses the geothermal energy of the planet as his energy source.

Furthermore, it's a low-end since the energy of the expansion is far more than moon level.

And assuming differences in speed between hammer throw, return and flight speed is completely absurd. Just because different scenes show different feats doesn't mean we have to compartimentalize and separate everything. You are not only splitting Flight Speed from other speeds but you are further splitting flight speed into multiple ratings.

And no matter how many times you insist, Rocket's ship wasn't flying at 100 m/s or else it wouldn't enter a planet's orbit in seconds. And unless you have specific proof that the jetpacks can't reach the Mach 20+ speed in combat, which you haven't, you can't insist that the Guardians can't fight at Mach 20+ speeds and react, specially when it is consistent with Rocket's reactions.

We already went over all of this, I don't know the need to repeat already debunked points.
 
I don't see how Ego would be moon Level anything to be honest. The Mon can be damaged by less such as in Toneri's case for example in Naruto. Ego hasn't been shown manipulating the entire planet. just parts, at best wouldn't his creating a face on the planet equate to at least Small Continent or Large Country level with a Possibly Higher Rating?
 
@Barry

Ego equates to half the energy necessary to englobe thousands of planets across the universe into himself, causing sprouts to spontaneously grow and wrap around the planet's entire surface in seconds.

And it is pretty ridiculous to see Ego casually warp his planet-body putting his face on it and assume that he doesn't have full control over it. It's transparently clear that he does.

Moon level is a pretty big low-end.
 
@Matt I'll agree on the expansion bit, but I'm pretty sure the face remained stationary the whole time, and plus a face isn't "an entire Moon". Nor is the geothermal energy of a Moon equal to it's GBE (or anywhere near it).

It doesn't really matter if Thor's hammer having a bunch of speeds is ridiculous to you, because that's what we see. In the first scene it appears it returns to him twice as quickly as he threw it and in the scene with Malekith he throws it at subsonic speed only for it to turn up, break the sound barrier (complete with SFX to show that) and accelerate to Mach 100 in seconds.

And no matter how many times you insist, Rocket's ship wasn't flying at 100 m/s or else it wouldn't enter a planet's orbit in seconds. And unless you have specific proof that the jetpacks can't reach the Mach 20+ speed in combat, which you haven't, you can't insist that the Guardians can't fight at Mach 20+ speeds and react, specially when it is consistent with Rocket's reactions.

Being able to enter a planet's orbit doesn't suggest high speed. You can let gravity do that. If you mean exiting a planet that doesn't require high speed either. You can do that at 1 m/s.

As for my proof the jetpacks weren't moving at Mach 20:

  • There was no sonic boom (Even though we know the SFX animators know how to make those from Thor)
  • They didn't look like they were moving at Mach 20 in any of the combat scenes (So assuming otherwise is speculation and would require evidence to back it up)
  • Gravity wasn't operating any slower than normal (If the scene was slowed to be showing Mach 20 at perceivable levels, why wasn't anything in the environment moving any slower)
  • There is no verbal indication they're moving very quickly
  • There is no audio indication they're moving quickly (Sound from slower things being slowed/muffled)
  • We have no indication that they would even want to be moving at Mach 20 speeds (There's no external evidence they can react that fast)
So basically, there's no indication they're moving that fast in any of the combat scenes with the jetpacks. Therefore it's a lot more likely that the jetpacks have an acceleration time like real flying objects do or that the Guardians just aren't using them at max speed to avoid flinging themselves into the horizon rather than that the scenes are secretly playing at 1/100th real time without showing anything to suggest that.
 
Umm....How would they make a Sonic Boom when in space?

Also Sonic Booms in fiction shouldn't even be counted, they're so laughably inconsistent with every possible verse.
 
On the matter of Thor's hammer:

What makes more sense? The ludicruous assumption that every single movement with the hammer has different levels of speed, or the simple idea that they are different feats and we need to pick the best one and call it a day? The later is far more honest and makes more sense.

No, Xcano. It is indeed proof of high-speed. The ships in Guardians of the Galaxy are capable of entering and exiting planets in matters of seconds, that proves that they are faster than any ship we have around, and your insistence that it is only 100 m/s is unfounded and debunked by what happens on screen.

  • They don't need Sonic Booms, Xcano. SFX for the Thor movies have nothing to do with the GotG ones, and fiction doesn't need to show Sonic Booms for Supersonic speed.
  • Once again, you are going to argue with apparent speed for characters that are so fast you couldn't see them? It doesn't work like that, Xcano, or else no character in fiction would be faster than Subsonic.
  • The environment doesn't need to appear slower nor do we need any audio indication. Not every superhuman character needs to showcase their speed like Quicksilver, Xcano. They just need to have the feats of being able to move at such speeds to be applied.
  • Weather or not you think the characters would want to move at Mach 21+ is completely irrelevant to the discussion. We go by what the characters have been shown capable of doing, not by what you think they would do.
So once again there is no argument to deny the fact that the Guardians are perfectly capable of moving at Mach 21+ speeds with their Jetpacks, as feats show. You thinking it doesn't make sense is wholly irrelevant to the debate.
 
Gargoyle 1 said:
Umm....How would they make a Sonic Boom when in space?
Also Sonic Booms in fiction shouldn't even be counted, they're so laughably inconsistent with every possible verse.
Click to expand...
If Sonic Booms were what determined speed, Bleach would only be Supersonic as Kubo loves to draw Sonic Booms when characters dash to showcase speed.
 
^Exactly.

I mean no offense to Xcsno but Sonic Booms in fiction is a very poor argument.

Also lol, we can see them so they're not that fast, guess Whis is Subsonic because I can see him traveling across the universe...
 
I don't know why this discussion is even being had. In the older thread, multiple far more notable Staff like Promestein, The Everlasting and Darkanine were fine with my upgrades, it should be fine to upgrade.
 
Literally everyone agreed except for a single guy who thinks Sonic Booms and visually seeing characters actually matters in fiction....

Sorry for being rude but just who uses such fallacious arguments?
 
@Matt @Weekly

I literally had 3 other points besides that but ok. Not to mention both of your points are either arguments from popularity or arguments from consequence.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
multiple far more notable Staff like Promestein, The Everlasting and Darkanine were fine with my upgrades, it should be fine to upgrade.
Click to expand...
I don't really feel comfortable with that statement. While I disagree with Cano's opinion regarding this, I still respect and I don't think he should be looked down upon or called "less notable" than others.
 
No they aren't either. Both Weekly and I pointed the inconsistencies and flaws with your arguments, and showed why they can't be used to say that something isn't fast.

And Xcano, it is a sign of maturity to peacefully step down when so many people have disagreed with your opinion. Virtually everyone has agreed with my side here, you are the only one standing vocally against me, and your points haven't been considered valid. Sometimes you need to accept the majority decision.
 
Darkanine said:
I don't really feel comfortable with that statement. While I disagree with Cano's opinion regarding this, I still respect and I don't think he should be looked down upon or called "less notable" than others.
Click to expand...
Fair enough. I didn't mean in the sense that he isn't at all notable, he is, but in the sense that plenty of admins were agreeing with my point, and in these discussions we generally go by majority vote. Sorry if it came off wrong.
 
@Matt Where did you show the flaws in all of my arguments because both of you only addressed a single point. The rest is another argument from popularity and an appeal to emotion.
 
  • There was no sonic boom (Even though we know the SFX animators know how to make those from Thor)
    • 75% of characters rated as Supersonic or higher have never made sonic booms here, that doesnt change their rating
  • They didn't look like they were moving at Mach 20 in any of the combat scenes (So assuming otherwise is speculation and would require evidence to back it up)
    • ..."They dont look like ____" is Literally one of the worst and most fallacious arguments you can use.
  • Gravity wasn't operating any slower than normal (If the scene was slowed to be showing Mach 20 at perceivable levels, why wasn't anything in the environment moving any slower)
  • There is no verbal indication they're moving very quickly
    • Stealing Matt's quote: The environment doesn't need to appear slower nor do we need any audio indication. Not every superhuman character needs to showcase their speed like Quicksilver, Xcano. They just need to have the feats of being able to move at such speeds to be applied.
  • There is no audio indication they're moving quickly (Sound from slower things being slowed/muffled)
    • This applies to 95% of characters with a speed higher than Subsonic in all of fiction
  • We have no indication that they would even want to be moving at Mach 20 speeds (There's no external evidence they can react that fast)
    • Stealing another of Matt's quotes: Weather or not you think the characters would want to move at Mach 21+ is completely irrelevant to the discussion. We go by what the characters have been shown capable of doing, not by what you think they would do.
 
I showed the flaws in my post. You cannot use arguments such as visuals and sounds and sonic booms to determined speed.

And I notice you like dismissing points people throw at you as "Argument from Popularity" and "Argument from Consequence", but I believe it should be telling when so many staff members wholly disagree with your approach, and it should also be telling when your approach is shown to be incompatible with the wiki as a whole.
 
What does this all have to do with Moon level Ego?

By the looks of things people agreed to keep the rating so this should be closed.
 
@Krukov

This has to do with the speed upgrades for the MCU Guardians, which I proposed in the old thread and were accepted by everyone but Xcano.
 
Well if the upgrades were accepted (and by the looks of things, people/staff were happy) then I don't see what's wrong.
 
@Weekly

"75% of characters rated as Supersonic or higher have never made sonic booms here, that doesnt change their rating"

There's a difference between "A sonic boom wasn't shown but they are clearly shown as moving 10x faster than a bullet" and "There is 0 indication they are moving quickly in this scene so there's no reason to assume so".

"..."They dont look like ____" is Literally one of the worst and most fallacious arguments you can use."

Explain why.

"Not every superhuman character needs to showcase their speed like Quicksilver, Xcano. They just need to have the feats of being able to move at such speeds to be applied."

Wherein lies the problem. They don't have evidence of being able to move at such speed. Their jetpacks do. Jetpacks, having a variable speed, need not be moving at Mach 20 all the time. There is no evidence they were pulling Mach 20 maneuvers in any of the combat scenes.

"This applies to 95% of characters with a speed higher than Subsonic in all of fiction"

Using Dragon Ball as an example, from the beginning of the series they establish "This is happening FTE". They constantly move FTE in every fight and have numerous supersonic feats. It is repeatedly hammered in that the fight scenes are slowed down.

GotG has none of that. It has one Mach 20 feat that, again, wasn't even done by a character but rather than object and was never repeated or even implied ever again.

"Weather or not you think the characters would want to move at Mach 21+ is completely irrelevant to the discussion. We go by what the characters have been shown capable of doing, not by what you think they would do."

Again, the characters are not shown to react at Mach 20 speeds. Their jetpacks are shown to fly at Mach 20 at top speed. The characters themselves did not perform this feat.

@Matt

"And I notice you like dismissing points people throw at you as "Argument from Popularity" and "Argument from Consequence", but I believe it should be telling when so many staff members wholly disagree with your approach, and it should also be telling when your approach is shown to be incompatible with the wiki as a whole."

This isn't a point. This is just another repeat of your previous argument from popularity.

Legit the whole world could say 2+2 = 5 but that doesn't mean I'm wrong for saying it's 4 even if that does go against "the world as a whole".
 
"..."They dont look like ____" is Literally one of the worst and most fallacious arguments you can use."

Explain why.

Because a Pokemon doesn't look strong, doesn't mean it can't output damage comparable to Nukes...

It's fiction 101, just because it looks like a kid, or is all cute and soft, doesn't mean it's not capable of doing terrifying damage.
 
@Xcano

Are you suggesting that you are the only right person and that Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot, The Real Cal Howard, WeeklyBattles, Darkanine, Promestein, Colonel Krukov, and far more are all wrong?

If so, that is quite concerning. I would much prefer you be capable of accepting that maybe you are in the wrong here.

What I am saying isn't an "Argument from Popularity", I am showing what the consensus has been in the discussion. And it goes against you.
 
"..."They dont look like ____" is Literally one of the worst and most fallacious arguments you can use."

Explain why.

I really, really hope youre joking...I guess by this logic if a character doesnt look threatening then it must not be powerful.
 
Also the Dragon Ball example once again is using appearances rather than feats to determine speed. You are essentially saying that they are fast because they have dashes and afterimages and flashy scenes, rather than any feats.

You are literally comitting the Style over Substance Fallacy.
 
@Weekly @Krukov

I'm sure both of you know this anyway (except maybe Krukov he just came in I'll give him a pass) but there is a BIG difference between:

  • This Pokemon looks weak so he's weak
and

  • We see on screen that he is only moving at 100 m/s and there's nothing in the scene or prior in the series to suggest any form of time dilation going on, so to assume it is happening is a little iffy
 
Once again, we have evidence that it is moving at more than the 100 m/s you insist, Xcano. No matter how many times you ignore the feats, they won't cease to exist. These are spaceships capable of leaving and entering orbits in seconds, they are at least faster than Escape Velocity at full-speed.
 
Just so I know the context here, what's the problem with the speed? Are we talking about Thor here?
 
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