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Puella Magi Verse High 1-B Upgrade

Agnaa has already said it won't be QS. Qawsedf also disagreed... And as long as you don't have a context like in DC. "And given that DC is no longer at H1B or higher"
Agnaa wasn't arguing that, Agnaa was specifically talking to Shiva about how standards work, not whether or not this verse qualified
At the moment, DC has nothing above 1-B, so what are you talking about?
About how the sixth dimension in DC, despite its moniker, used to be 1-A, as just because something is named that does not limit it to such scope
 
Infinity is also a quantity, and what is happening here is that within the 4-dimensional structure there are layers going down infinitely, and then going up infinitely from where they are.

So it's actually all happening in 4-D and the infinite ascending is actually going back to the way it was before the infinite descending, it doesn't change much.

First it goes down infinitely, then it goes up infinitely from where it was and returns to its original state, and this happens in 4-D
I have to explain that when it comes to vomiting blood, I have mentioned more than once that the post civilization has indeed transcended the dimensions of time and space
 
Infinity is also a quantity, and what is happening here is that within the 4-dimensional structure there are layers going down infinitely, and then going up infinitely from where they are.

So it's actually all happening in 4-D and the infinite ascending is actually going back to the way it was before the infinite descending, it doesn't change much.

First it goes down infinitely, then it goes up infinitely from where it was and returns to its original state, and this happens in 4-D
You are reading that horribly.
 
At the moment, DC has nothing above 1-B, so what are you talking about?
The 5th Dimension in DC is accepted as High 1-C
The Fifth Dimension is High 1-C for existing and flowing all around and between the realms of the Divine Continuum, adhering to a higher degree of said tier, but it has not been proven to be qualitatively superior to Hypertime.
Which is what I'm talking about. You'd have to explain and then prove why they shouldn't be limited to a 4th Dimensional/Tier 2 upper limit.
 
About how the sixth dimension in DC, despite its moniker, used to be 1-A, as just because something is named that does not limit it to such scope
These are two very different things. The 6th dimension is the name of the place whereas this structure is directly part of a 4-dimensional structure. It's not the name, it's the quality.
 
Agnaa wasn't arguing that, Agnaa was specifically talking to Shiva about how standards work, not whether or not this verse qualified
You're completely misunderstanding that. We require explicit statements of being "uncountably infinitely larger" or being "so much larger that it's even greater than simply being infinitely larger", and that's what the page says. We don't just assume that "larger" = "uncountably infinitely larger" because that's the only mathematically correct way of actually having a different size.
As you can see, what is being advocated here is a clear misinterpretation of QS. This is what Agnaa say exactly
 
I still don't understand why we're treating that just because the structure is in a 4-D space, its final result will also be 4-D instead of High 1-B. The author could very well not understand 100% the mathematical concepts when writing the story and just want to write a cool sci-fi plot, i don't see why this should limit the High 1-B hierarchy because it is in a 4-D space which clearly outperforms a 4-D size. Ig this is whataboutism but for example, Nasuverse has a tier 1 planet, the structure of the planet shows and clearly surpasses a 5-B size there.
 
How many times do I have to explain this thing? In the following text, Kiriha Kosane transcends the dimensions of time and space in her struggle with her sister. Three dimensions contain various spatiotemporal continuum, time series, infinite timeline, and the entire three-dimensional space is just a point in the higher-level tetrahedron
 
As you can see, what is being advocated here is a clear misinterpretation of QS. This is what Agnaa say exactly
I am literally in a discord with Agnaa where he talked to Shiva about this, he was specifically correcting what Shiva was saying when I brought up the fact that there existed a point comparison, he said it was sufficient.
No, man, the scans clearly state that. The fact that these things happen in 4-D and that there is no QS already disproves them
Something being called 4D doesn't limit it to such scope, a 2D thing could contain a tier 0 number of shapes and would be tier 0 by our standards
 
Something being called 4D doesn't limit it to such scope, a 2D thing could contain a tier 0 number of shapes and would be tier 0 by our standards
You are claiming that a structure with four spatial axes also has infinite spatial axes. So, yes, that limits the scope.
 
Agnaa has already said it won't be QS
it's possible I misunderstood his post, but it doesn't matter much fr fr
what is happening here is that within the 4-dimensional structure there are layers going down infinitely, and then going up infinitely from where they are.
you could also argue that the the structure isn't 4-D, but I don't have the evidence to prove that as I'm not familiar with the verse. but the claim that something that infinitely recedes and expands isn't QS is just confusing to me.
 
You are claiming that a structure with four spatial axes also has infinite spatial axes. So, yes, that limits the scope.
Guess what, fiction will do fiction, and as long as it has the proper definition (which it does) we can and have thrown away stuff being termed as lower than the term would imply.
 
it's possible I misunderstood his post, but it doesn't matter much fr fr

you could also argue that the the structure isn't 4-D, but I don't have the evidence to prove that as I'm not familiar with the verse. but the claim that something that infinitely recedes and expands isn't QS is just confusing to me.
Basically this happened with the new standards. It can used to be QS in old standarts, but now it's not.
 
Guess what, fiction will do fiction, and as long as it has the proper definition (which it does)
It doesn't. If he really said that this 4D structure also contains infinite spatial dimensions (which would still be a contradiction, but again, as in the example you gave above, it would be H1-B), he would have made a sufficient explanation.

But there is a structure that we clearly know is 4D and there are only statements that you interpreted as H1-B. What makes it unacceptable is that this H1-B part is your interpretation, not the actual statement. Therefore, instead of accepting the interpretation that leads to the contradiction, one should proceed from the actual evidence.
 
It doesn't. If he really said that this 4D structure also contains infinite spatial dimensions (which would still be a contradiction, but again, as in the example you gave above, it would be H1-B), he would have made a sufficient explanation.

But there is a structure that we clearly know is 4D and there are only statements that youinterpretedas H1-B. What makes it unacceptable is that this H1-B part is your interpretation, not the actual statement. Therefore, instead of accepting the interpretation that leads to the contradiction, one should proceed from the actual evidence.
How many times do I have to explain this thing? In the following text, Kiriha Kosane transcends the dimensions of time and space in her struggle with her sister. Three dimensions contain various spatiotemporal continuum, time series, infinite timeline, and the entire three-dimensional space is just a point in the higher-level tetrahedron
You should read my explanation why it's not just 4-D.
 
I'm talking about the letter/hierarchy as part of a 4-dimensional structure, not the character. I don't have a problem with the character having transcended these things later on.
Then what explanation do you want? . . . . .
 
Basically this happened with the new standards. It can used to be QS in old standarts, but now it's not.
No it isn't, still qualifies, the point comparison is still there and still qualifies for similar reasons as Dark Tower gets it High 1-B.
It doesn't. If he really said that this 4D structure also contains infinite spatial dimensions (which would still be a contradiction, but again, as in the example you gave above, it would be H1-B), he would have made a sufficient explanation.

But there is a structure that we clearly know is 4D and there are only statements that you interpreted as H1-B. What makes it unacceptable is that this H1-B part is your interpretation, not the actual statement. Therefore, instead of accepting the interpretation that leads to the contradiction, one should proceed from the actual evidence.
1)I never said that it contained or had infinite dimensions (and even if I did it wouldn't matter), I said it contained something that had a size equivalent to a High 1-B structure, which it can because fiction can and will contradict what we consider to be proper or right without regard for our standards, I know a verse with an eleventh dimension that would qualify for 1-A under our system.
2)Yeah and conflating your interpretation with the statement itself is fallacious
 
Which is what I'm talking about. You'd have to explain and then prove why they shouldn't be limited to a 4th Dimensional/Tier 2 upper limit.
I'm not sure but maybe this can help, this High 1-B hierarchy is in the universe of the novel which is said to work with the grand unified theory, characters integrated the quantum theory with general relativity to create the theory of everything. I heard that such theory involves the bosonic string theory which would mean that the universe clearly have more than 4 spatial dimensions.
 
I'm not sure but maybe this can help, this High 1-B hierarchy is in the universe of the novel which is said to work with the grand unified theory, characters integrated the quantum theory with general relativity to create the theory of everything. I heard that such theory involves the bosonic string theory which would mean that the universe clearly have more than 4 spatial dimensions.
Quantum string theory is not apart of the standard model of physics, so it would need to specifically mention string theory existing for the assumption to be made that it would be apart of the theory of everything.
 
I'm not sure but maybe this can help, this High 1-B hierarchy is in the universe of the novel which is said towork with the grand unified theory, characters integrated the quantum theory with general relativity to create the theory of everything. I heard that suchtheoryinvolves the bosonic string theory which would mean that the universe clearly have more than 4 spatial dimensions.
string theorywhichIt was mentioned in another book by the author, and I don't think it is necessary to discuss it here.
 
No it isn't, still qualifies, the point comparison is still there and still qualifies for similar reasons as Dark Tower gets it High 1-B.

1)I never said that it contained or had infinite dimensions (and even if I did it wouldn't matter), I said it contained something that had a size equivalent to a High 1-B structure, which it can because fiction can and will contradict what we consider to be proper or right without regard for our standards, I know a verse with an eleventh dimension that would qualify for 1-A under our system.
Then give a direct reference for it.
2)Yeah and conflating your interpretation with the statement itself is fallacious
And there is no more context and expression in the current situations. This turns out to be the only interpretation and logical interpretation
 
No it is, posting the scans about the string theory in the Null Magical Girl/Madoka verse, will help the CRT.
What I mean is that the string theory is explicitly mentioned in the author's other book, Evolution girls, but not explicitly mentioned in null Magic girl
 
Btw there is nothing here that is compatible with string theory. The situation here is completely independent of string theory.

String theory alone cannot help here when there are so many statements that there is no QS in these events, and that they are in the 4th dimension. And the situation of string theory is very different than it is here. They are two independent things.

Because they're very independent of each other, and what's happening here is like pressing random buttons in a game.
 
Ok so important question. Is this novel even canon? It's not written by the creator of Madoka Magica nor can I find any involvement from him and is written by Gengen Kusano.
 
Then give a direct reference for it.
Soul Land or Douluo Dalu has a tenth dimension which is entirely dimensionless, yet within it is all space-time, all possibilities, all dimensioned universes, etc to the point that everything below it is naught more than a grain of sand (see it contradicting itself)
And there is no more context and expression in the current situations. This turns out to be the only interpretation and logical interpretation
I don't think I need to explain why dismissing other interpretations as illogical while holding your own to be the sole correct one has issues.
So... I don't know what is the situation for you, but that is basically the situation. Agnaa has also explained it and it is written on the page. Also quoted above
Agnaa only clarified to Shiva what the FAQ was actually saying, not whether or not this has a valid superiority, which given you seem to want to bring him up and quote him so much:
image.png
 
I'm not sure but maybe this can help, this High 1-B hierarchy is in the universe of the novel which is said to work with the grand unified theory, characters integrated the quantum theory with general relativity to create the theory of everything. I heard that such theory involves the bosonic string theory which would mean that the universe clearly have more than 4 spatial dimensions.
Dimensions in bosonic string theory are compactified (and so typically are dimensions in string theory) and would not qualify for any tiers. So better to not use that.
 
Ok so important question. Is this novel even canon? It's not written by the creator of Madoka Magica and is written by Gengen Kusano.
Gengen said that he was supervised while writing the novel and that it doesn't conflict with the main story of Madoka. The fact that he was supervised while writing already implies that someone from the series was with him so he wouldn't deviate from the original material, he just doesn't feel safe to say whether it is canonical because he thinks that only Madoka's creator has that right to decide that. But since in Madoka there is an infinite multiverse, there is no reason not to believe that this novel is not happening in one of these universes.
 
Gengen said that he was supervised while writing the novel and that it doesn't conflict with the main story of Madoka. The fact that he was supervised while writing already implies that someone from the series was with him so he wouldn't deviate from the original material, he just doesn't feel safe to say whether it is canonical because he thinks that only Madoka's creator has that right to decide that. But since in Madoka there is an infinite multiverse, there is no reason not to believe that this novel is not happening in one of these universes.
Doesn't this debunk it being canon if the one who wrote it isn't sure it is? and not conflicting with main story ≠ canon.
 
Null Magical Girl is a really weird and messy story that barely fits within the world of PMMM but I took a read through it to try and make some sense of it.

Trying to cut out everything besides the tiers stuff, the main quote is this.

I’m not proud of it, but I can’t even make an origami crane. If
you give me origami paper, all you’ll get back is a pile of
scrap paper. For me, the instructions are quite difficult.

“I’m not a fan of the way you do it,” Kyubey says matter-of-
factly. Even so, he encourages me to finish it.

The finished product is a three-dimensional object
composed of four equilateral triangles. In other words, it’s a
tetrahedron.

“What kind of railroad company would accept this as a
ticket?”

When I look closely at the tetrahedron, I notice a faint, blue
light leaking from it. Since the only material used was paper,
it’s odd that there’s light coming from it. The light gets
stronger and stronger as I look at it. The intense, blue light
illuminates the surroundings and dominates them in its
blueness. I notice the light penetrates the tetrahedron,
creating shadows inside. I’m not really sure if we can call
them shadows though. They aren’t projected onto a flat
surface like a normal shadow, but instead emerge as three-
dimensional objects.

The shadow forms a smaller tetrahedron inside the original
tetrahedron. Upon closer inspection, I can see even smaller
and smaller tetrahedrons inside it. Like a kaleidoscope,
layers and endless more layers of tetrahedrons manifest.
Inside each is an endless series of them. And outside,
infinitely many more emanate outward to surround it.

I, too, realize I’m in my own kaleidoscope. I remember the
sensation of falling. The scaffolding that had supported me
in this world suddenly disappeared from beneath me. I’m
filled with an indescribable anxiety.

Where am I falling to?

Into the tetrahedron, eternally downward into infinite layers.

From within endless deepness, a tetrahedron rises and
scatters to a limitlessly distant place.

From each point of my body, a tetrahedron evolves, both
infinitesimally small and boundlessly large, transfiguring me
into a singularity.

From far away in the labyrinth of tetrahedrons soaked in blue
light, I can hear a faint, high-pitched reverberation. The noise
gradually grows louder as a small dot penetrates the edge of
my vision. The sound and dot slowly expand in front of me.

Ah, I know what it is.

It’s a train, a steam locomotive that belches out black smoke
as its whistle cries out in its jet-black advance. The train
arrives with a deafening noise.

So, from this quote. It's pretty clear that the tetrahedron is some kind of a 'gateway' to this train station, also known as the Time Railroad. Eruna refers to the tetrahedron as the 'ticket' into the time railroad so to speak.

Once she properly folds it, she starts to fall through reality itself, as dictated by the 'scaffolding', and once she finishes she reaches the Time Railroad. This Railroad is used as a transportation method throughout all of time.

"That's right. Their magical power is without parallel. They
generate emotional energy almost passively. They’re using it
to colonize the entire galaxy—and if that isn’t enough, they’ve
conquered time as well.

“You know the Time Railroad, don't you?" Coeurl sighs.

I have no idea what that sigh’s supposed to mean.

"So, the railroad was built by Homo magica?"

"Yes. They’ve used the Time Railroad to establish their
eternal dominion from the end of the universe to the end of
time.”
Now, what is the Time Railroad exactly? It's kind of really vague and unclear, but from what we can get from the novel, it seems to be a system built by Homo magica (the evolved version of magical girls) that underlies all of time.

Homo magica have begun building a station of the Time
Railroad in a corner of the Ringworld, revealing its true
nature. It’s an ecosystem of organisms in a time loop.

All living things have the ability to travel back in time to
repeat evolution and change the timeline.

In an evolutionary time loop, predators use future information
to track their prey in the past, and prey struggle to avoid
future tragedies. Time and space are twisted by repeated
transformations of the timeline. Time travel is made possible
by connecting these points through a railroad.
So, all of these points in the timeline are connected through reality via the Time Railroad that Homo magica have built. This time railroad stretches along infinitely, with infinite paths into the future and the past.

In exchange for the time looping ability, the species
degenerated their intelligence, as there is no point in
learning from the past if you can endlessly reset upon a
mistake. Therein lies our opportunity. And thus, we overcome
many challenges to reach our goal—a station platform. From
the infinite future, the track stretches to the infinite past. On
the tracks, infinite trains with infinite routes are parked.
Note the "infinite trains with infinite routes", which is what I believe to be the author trying to express how the structure under the train can go through all of the infinite layers of reality. After all, this system underlies an infinite set of layers that underlie reality it seems, so it makes sense that a train that can travel through all of time could travel through every layer of reality.

At some point, Kosane (the main protagonist) undergoes an explosion that allows her to "fuse with the time railroad", and allows her to access every single point in time at once.

Who am I?

Kosane Kiriha. I am the human body indicated by that name,
that is my identity.

Ah yes, that was me. But not now. Not anymore. On the
platform of the Time Railroad, I was transformed with the
explosion of the time locomotive's boiler. I fused with several
Kyubeys and absorbed the locomotive and track itself.

Combining the temporal wisdom of the Time Railroad with the
spatial intuition of Kyubey's computational power, I escaped
the yoke of the three-dimensional world.
Here, it says she escapes the grasp of the three-dimensional world. Not necessarily High 1-B, but it's evidence that the time railroad is beyond our normal reality.

So it's my belief that the Time Railroad underlies all of reality as 'time' (or the 4th dimension so to speak), but the overall size of 'time' is much larger than 4-D in a way. As entering into the time railroad causes one to fall through an infinite amount of layers of reality. The time railroad is then noted to have an infinite amount of routes and infinite amount of trains, which is equivalent to the infinite layers required to get to the time railroad in the first place. This means there's an infinite amount of 'time layers' so to speak. Which can be construed as High 1-B.

This is all my interpretation though. I'd recommend you read Null Magical Girl yourself if you want an informed opinion, it's only 170 pages and has an English translation available with a short google. I don't have a strong opinion on the tiering itself, but I was just hoping that maybe my interpretation could provide some clarity.
 
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Null Magical Girl is a really weird and messy story that barely fits within the world of PMMM but I took a read through it to try and make some sense of it.

Trying to cut out everything besides the tiers stuff, the main quote is this.



So, from this quote. It's pretty clear that the tetrahedron is some kind of a 'gateway' to this train station, also known as the Time Railroad. Eruna refers to the tetrahedron as the 'ticket' into the time railroad so to speak.

Once she properly folds it, she starts to fall through reality itself, as dictated by the 'scaffolding', and once she finishes she reaches the Time Railroad. This Railroad is used as a transportation method throughout all of time.


Now, what is the Time Railroad exactly? It's kind of really vague and unclear, but from what we can get from the novel, it seems to be a system built by Homo magica (the evolved version of magical girls) that underlies all of time.


So, all of these points in the timeline are connected through reality via the Time Railroad that Homo magica have built. This time railroad stretches along infinitely, with infinite paths into the future and the past.


Note the "infinite trains with infinite routes", which is what I believe to be the author trying to express how the structure under the train can go through all of the infinite layers of reality. After all, this system underlies an infinite set of layers that underlie reality it seems, so it makes sense that a train that can travel through all of time could travel through every layer of reality.
I think these are 2-A. No higher.
At some point, Kosane (the main protagonist) undergoes an explosion that allows her to "fuse with the time railroad", and allows her to access every single point in time at once.


Here, it says she escapes the grasp of the three-dimensional world. Not necessarily High 1-B, but it's evidence that the time railroad is beyond our normal reality.

So it's my belief that the Time Railroad underlies all of reality as 'time' (or the 4th dimension so to speak), but the overall size of 'time' is much larger than 4-D in a way. As entering into the time railroad causes one to fall through an infinite amount of layers of reality. The time railroad is then noted to have an infinite amount of routes and infinite amount of trains, which parallels the infinite layers required to get to the time railroad in the first place. This means there's an infinite amount of 'time layers' so to speak. Which can be construed as High 1-B.

This is all my interpretation though. I'd recommend you read Null Magical Girl yourself if you want an informed opinion, it's only 170 pages and has an English translation available with a short google. I don't have a strong opinion on the tiering itself, but I was just hoping that maybe my interpretation could provide some clarity.
The fact that these are parallel is already a bigger refutation that it is not actually QS. Also, infinite time layers do not give you H1-B in principle. In this case they would have to flow on different a
Soul Land or Douluo Dalu has a tenth dimension which is entirely dimensionless, yet within it is all space-time, all possibilities, all dimensioned universes, etc to the point that everything below it is naught more than a grain of sand (see it contradicting itself)
No problem except that there is no such thing
I don't think I need to explain why dismissing other interpretations as illogical while holding your own to be the sole correct one has issues.
I make this interpretation according to the situation found in the scans and in the verse.


It would be extremely illogical to claim that this is actually a "H1-B hierarchy" or something like that, when you are talking about these events taking place within the 4-D structure and actually going down infinitely within 4-D. But instead of claiming H1-B, it is much more consistent and healthy to claim that "there is no H1-B" given these things. Especially given that there is no more context and no more wording for H1-B
Agnaa only clarified to Shiva what the FAQ was actually saying, not whether or not this has a valid superiority, which given you seem to want to bring him up and quote him so much:
image.png
But what he said to him "that's not QS" was exactly the argument he presented for QS. Instead of directly saying "I disagree", he simply stated that "misunderstood and did not QS" to him.
 
Doesn't this debunk it being canon if the one who wrote it isn't sure it is?
Why? Gengen just respects that the decision of what is canon to the Madoka series belongs to the creators of the series like Gen Urobuchi and not to him. Don't know if this help can help but his novel was released in a official Madoka Magica 10th anniversary book. Again no reason to assume this isn't a random universe inside the cosmology especially when other timelines/universes are recognized within the novel.
 
Null Magical Girl is a really weird and messy story that barely fits within the world of PMMM but I took a read through it to try and make some sense of it.

Trying to cut out everything besides the tiers stuff, the main quote is this.



So, from this quote. It's pretty clear that the tetrahedron is some kind of a 'gateway' to this train station, also known as the Time Railroad. Eruna refers to the tetrahedron as the 'ticket' into the time railroad so to speak.

Once she properly folds it, she starts to fall through reality itself, as dictated by the 'scaffolding', and once she finishes she reaches the Time Railroad. This Railroad is used as a transportation method throughout all of time.


Now, what is the Time Railroad exactly? It's kind of really vague and unclear, but from what we can get from the novel, it seems to be a system built by Homo magica (the evolved version of magical girls) that underlies all of time.


So, all of these points in the timeline are connected through reality via the Time Railroad that Homo magica have built. This time railroad stretches along infinitely, with infinite paths into the future and the past.


Note the "infinite trains with infinite routes", which is what I believe to be the author trying to express how the structure under the train can go through all of the infinite layers of reality. After all, this system underlies an infinite set of layers that underlie reality it seems, so it makes sense that a train that can travel through all of time could travel through every layer of reality.

At some point, Kosane (the main protagonist) undergoes an explosion that allows her to "fuse with the time railroad", and allows her to access every single point in time at once.


Here, it says she escapes the grasp of the three-dimensional world. Not necessarily High 1-B, but it's evidence that the time railroad is beyond our normal reality.

So it's my belief that the Time Railroad underlies all of reality as 'time' (or the 4th dimension so to speak), but the overall size of 'time' is much larger than 4-D in a way. As entering into the time railroad causes one to fall through an infinite amount of layers of reality. The time railroad is then noted to have an infinite amount of routes and infinite amount of trains, which parallels the infinite layers required to get to the time railroad in the first place. This means there's an infinite amount of 'time layers' so to speak. Which can be construed as High 1-B.

This is all my interpretation though. I'd recommend you read Null Magical Girl yourself if you want an informed opinion, it's only 170 pages and has an English translation available with a short google. I don't have a strong opinion on the tiering itself, but I was just hoping that maybe my interpretation could provide some clarity.
I feel this makes the most sense, yeah.
 
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