Problems With The BFG9000

[MrKingOfNegativity]

@Versus: In general, the number of enemies doesn't matter. Any number of enemies, large and small, who are caught in the blast radius are blown to pieces by it no matter how close to the epicenter they are. I agree that the "massive sphere of flesh" approach is a mistake, but still. Just throwing that out there.

Also, the problem with The Titan is that it doesn't appear in-game. All we see of it is the skeleton of its head and torso, which appears at the beginning of the Titan's Realm level. Its size was calc'd in a prior thread based on that. I'll find it in a moment.

@Medeus: 8-A sounds more reasonable imo.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Found it.

The size was found in the OP of the thread at the time. The weight was found immediately afterwards. If any aspect of either needs to be revised, then now would be a good time to point them out.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

I calc'd the size of the Titan on another thread; it was backed up with someone comparing the size of the Titan's head to Doomslayer's height and noticing the shape of the Titan is the same as Cyberdemon.

I see. Can I have a link to it? If CW Flash is 7-C for somewhat similar scaling then it can probably work for Doomguy.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

I just posted a link to the thread above.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Mr King just linked it, anyway, this video did imply that at least half of each target got vaporized. Again, not entirely certain, but the Barons of Hell do way several tons; comparable to pick up trucks to be specific. We can take their mass, divide them by the 62 kilograms of an average human, and multiply by 150 megajoules, and then multiply the number of Barons of Hell being destroyed by a single attack.

Edit: I got to go to work now, so I'll be back in about 10 hours from now.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

^That video in particular is based on the codex entries, which state that the BFG is capable of instantly boiling the "blood and fatty tissue" of its victims.

Dunno how that would translate to the gun's AP, though. I always just saw that as a means of ignoring durability to an extent.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Speaking of which, does anybody know the density/mass of the plasma being fired from a plasma projectile? We might be able use the kinetic energy of that to calc it. It is similar to an Island sized explosion being calc'd at Planet level for Toejam & Earl, Piccolo's moon busting feat being Planet level, or Lavos's Continent busting feat being 5-A. So if there's a good source, Tier 7 Doomslayer may or may not be dead.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

I may have to look into it, but I don't remember anything detailing that much info on the gun.

Worst-case scenario, we have a couple of feats for the BFG as well as the raw Titan scaling for Doom Slayer. All else fails, we can just rely on those.

EDIT: Nope. None of the Codex entries or D3 PDAs say anything about the density or mass of the plasma the BFG spits out.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I meant density plasma projectiles in general. As in the RL plasma projectiles that the plasma being fired is composed of. I know the speed is Massively Hypersonic+ to Sub-Relativistic speed. Once density is found, I could try calc'ing the volume of the BFG's projectile before it explodes.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

So after looking into that, all I've managed to acquire is a headache.

Well, a headache, and this:

"Hot plasma, which is the type associated with astrophysics, is completely ionized and has a very high plasma density of about one-trillion electrons per cubic centimeter."

That's the closest thing I can find to what was requested, but I'm pretty sure it's not what you were looking for. I have no idea what it means for us, either.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, not quite. And sorry about the headache, I tried googling it too. This source mentions > 5 grams/cm^3 which is more or less what I'm looking for.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Welp, all's well that ends well, I suppose.

If you do decide to calc that, be sure to do it as a blog so that it can be submitted and evaluated like everything else. Once we have another approved calc blog for this thing, we should be good to go. Hopefully we won't wind up with anything too absurd in either direction.

Worst-case scenario, we can use the pulverization/possible (albeit unlikely) vaporization of the Mastermind's head as a simple backup feat.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'll do a proper calc later, but for now. Assuming a lowball and saying the blast diameter of the plasma sphere before detonation is one meter, meaning radius is half a meter, the mass would be 2,620,000 grams or 2,620 kilograms. And combining that with the velocity's low end of 489 km/s would be 313,248,510,000,000 joules or 74.868 kilotons of TNT; which is Town level+. And the high end of 3000 km/s would be 11,790,000,000,000,000 joules or 2.818 Megatons of TNT; which is Small City level.

Damn, I only severely low-balled it and it already feels super hype'd; with even higher results than the original calc. Anyway, I'll do a more proper calc once I get the time to do some proper pixel scaling.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Yeah, let's wait for that. If the real results end up looking as good as that, and they end up approved, we might be looking at an upgrade instead of a downgrade.

I feel strangely conflicted about seeing numbers that high, though...

 

[VersusJunkie54]

I'll do a proper calc later, but for now. Assuming a lowball and saying the blast diameter of the plasma sphere before detonation is one meter, meaning radius is half a meter, the mass would be 2,620,000 grams or 2,620 kilograms. And combining that with the velocity's low end of 489 km/s would be 313,248,510,000,000 joules or 74.868 kilotons of TNT; which is Town level+. And the high end of 3000 km/s would be 11,790,000,000,000,000 joules or 2.818 Megatons of TNT; which is Small City level.
Damn, I only severely low-balled it and it already feels super hype'd; with even higher results than the original calc. Anyway, I'll do a more proper calc once I get the time to do some proper pixel scaling.

Town Level+ or Small City Level Doom? That wouldf be something but I feel like its unlikely.

Shuoldn't we get a staff member on this thread? I think that would be needed to truly decide this. Wether or not Doom gets up or downgraded he's gonna lose all of his victories.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

@Versus:

The Berserk/Quad Damage ratings come from the fact that the lore surrounding them describes them as literal stat boosts. Berserk Sphere = massively increased strength, Quad Damage = Literal 4x amp for all weapons (including mundane things like pocket knives), etc etc. The ratings themselves were found by applying these boosts to his stats. 28.75 KT (BFG's current rating) amped x4 would equal roughly 115 KT, and even a 2x boost on Doom Slayer's physicals (which allow him to one-shot beings who tank 28.75 KT beings) would put him in the Large Town level range. All of this will change once the BFG has a new calc though, obviously.

And yes, I agree that we need some sort of staff member following this, but I can't think of anyone who's familiar with DOOM, and nobody's really come forward yet. If Medeus submits his calc to the Evaluation thread, we might get the attention we need. But until then, I don't know who to call on.

If I'm being honest, anything above 7-C for DOOM seems like seriously wishful thinking at this point. But that's part of why I feel like we need more eyes on this.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, to be fair, Sub-Relativistic combat speed, which is on par with Saiyan Saga DBZ, is also surprisingly high for Doom, but that's how fast real world plasma projectiles travel. Doom's plasma weapons do behave just like those very same projectiles, meaning we can use them for scaling. Halo's plasma projectiles for example, don't have the same portrayal/behavior, and the guidebooks only reflect the various covenant weapons as being only Subsonic; with the exception of the Covenant Sniper Rifle being Hypersonic+. On top of that, Spartans do canonically struggle to dodge Supersonic bullets, which all mediums have been portrayed as being faster than Covenant weapons.

On top of that, BFG 9000 is indeed a super giant plasma weapon, so the combination would most definitely warrant a high result. The only thing I'm uncertain about is whether or not that article is accurate with plasma projectiles being over a thousand times denser than titanium. Then again, there was going to be a possible movement speed in order, if the speed of Doomguy moving gets a calc comparing to the movement of plasma. That would also warrant a possible Titan upgrade that scales to Doomslayer.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Fair enough, I suppose. I'm probably just used to seeing FPS characters (not including ones with blatant superpowers like those in Borderlands) generally falling a bit lower on the scale than ones from other types of games. Town level Doom Slayer alone was already something I felt strange about the first time around, even though the evidence supported it at the time.

Still think it'll be best to play this safe, have things checked over by an admin or two before we go getting our hopes up. Small City level DOOM would be a hell of a thing to see, but I want to be absolutely sure.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Well, to be fair, Sub-Relativistic' combat speed, which is on par with Saiyan Saga DBZ, is also surprisingly high for Doom, but that's how fast real world plasma projectiles travel. Doom's plasma weapons do behave just like those very same projectiles, meaning we can use them for scaling. Halo's plasma projectiles for example, don't have the same portrayal/behavior, and the guidebooks only reflect the various covenant weapons as being only Subsonic; with the exception of the Covenant Sniper Rifle being Hypersonic+. On top of that, Spartans do canonically struggle to dodge Supersonic bullets, which all mediums have been portrayed as being faster than Covenant weapons.

Yeah. Sub Relativistic Master Chief would sure be something. And outright absurd even to me and I'm a bit of a Halo fanboy. If that were ever a thing there would be alot of calc stacking wank lol.

Edit: If Doom gets to be Low 7-B That means him vs Ben 10 would be fair. I'd love to make that

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Chief being as fast as a Saiyan Saga DBZ character would be the funniest thing ever considering how many times he's shown relying on vehicles for travel.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Chief being as fast as a Saiyan Saga DBZ character would be the funniest thing ever considering how many times he's shown relying on vehicles for travel.

Yeah. The Crazy Halo fanboys would probably try to wank him to Town Level+ or higher. Since thats the kinetic energy given from his mass at those speeds. Man it sounds funny.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

The new meme of the century: Master Chief charges through your favorite verse.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

The new meme of the century: Master Chief charges through your favorite verse.

And his luck insures that he always wins

Edit: This inspired me to edit the Wanked Master Chief page on the Joke Battles wiki a bit more

 

[Therefir]

What's the conclusion here?.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

We're waiting on calcs from Medeus at the moment. Whatever results from them (if it's approved) will be used as the new rating for the BFG, and the top-tiers will be adjusted accordingly.

If his calcs aren't approved for any particular reason, then we'll have one of the other raw feats calc'd instead of what he's proposing.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I have made the calc; certaintly much higher than I expected

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

I have a really bad feeling...

But if this gets approved, then holy shit. Those are some serious numbers.

EDIT: Also, I just read the article that tells of plasma projectile density, and it actually supports our current speed rating for the plasma weapons in the game. It outright states that plasma projectiles are capable of reaching sub-relativistic speeds. That seems like a good sign.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Sweet. If the Low 7-B result gets approved, Doom vs Ben 10 will be fair.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Welp, looks like it's back to the drawing board.

There was a thread that happened today. Apparently our connections between "real-life" plasma waves and DOOM's plasma projectiles were something of a mass-misinterpretation of the information we had found. At face value, all of it looked really convincing (even some of the mods had thought so), but we were all viewing it from the wrong perspective.

Sorry to say it, but that's how it goes. DOOM as a verse is heading downwards.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Welp, looks like it's back to the drawing board.
There was a thread that happened today. Apparently our connections between "real-life" plasma waves and DOOM's plasma projectiles were something of a mass-misinterpretation of the information we had found. At face value, all of it looked really convincing (even some of the mods had thought so), but we were all viewing it from the wrong perspective.

Sorry to say it, but that's how it goes. DOOM as a verse is heading downwards.

Crap. Does this mean that a downgrade is gonna happen?

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Verily.

Most likely for the tier AND the speed, but the speed is definitely going to take the hardest hit.

It is what it is.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, it turns out the general speed of plasma weapons is actually undefined unless there's actually proof or in game lore of a specific muzzle velocity and/or comparable to other types of projectiles. Doomguy would at bare minimum still be Supersonic due to casually avoiding machine generated electricity, and I do vaguely recall an old calc that put him at Hypersonic do to casting after images while dodging machine gun fire.

Doomslayer would also most likely be 8-A do to the Titan calc.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

So, since the BFG is going to need yet another recalc.

Why don't we use the feat of it obliterating the Mastermind's head? On top of the main snapshot of Doom standing on the Mastermind's corpse, there's that fan-made size chart for the DOOM reboot's characters/enemies that uses direct side-by-side scaling of the in-game models themselves. (and scales upwards from Doomguy's official height of 1.83 m)

There's some steel inside of Mastermind's head, judging from the state of it afterwards. Not sure if that would alter the result much, but it's something to note nonetheless. Judging from how red the ends of the steel bits look, it appears those parts have been melted away as well.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, it's hard to judge how much of the volume is steel/titanium or whatever the metal is and which rest of the volume is brain. But it appears it's mostly the Titanium part that's pulverized. Pulverization of Steel is 310 to 1000 j/cc; not sure what the pulverization of human brain is though.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Well, it's hard to judge how much of the volume is steel/titanium or whatever the metal is and which rest of the volume is brain. But it appears it's mostly the Titanium part that's pulverized. Pulverization of Steel is 310 to 1000 j/cc; not sure what the pulverization of human brain is though.

We could just use pulverization of Human flesh.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Alright, there's gotta be a better value than pulverization of human flesh. And I don't know, maybe part of it was vaporized. Anyway, I was forced to lowball it as much as possible and ended up with 9-A to 8-C. Quite possibly the most exhausting calc I've done so far and not satisfied with it at all; deserves to be High 8-C at bare minimum.

At least Doomslayer will still be 8-A. I'll be able to comment more after my work shift though.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Alright, there's gotta be a better value than pulverization of human flesh. And I don't know, maybe part of it was vaporized. Anyway, I was forced to lowball it as much as possible and ended up with 9-A to 8-C. Quite possibly the most exhausting calc I've done so far and not satisfied with it at all; deserves to be High 8-C at bare minimum.
At least Doomslayer will still be 8-A. I'll be able to comment more after my work shift though.

If Doomslayer is 8-A, then I don't think it'll matter that much because the BFG should scale to him and enemies with that durability.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

It actually doesn't scale to him. He's recorded as being able to one-shot all of the boss-tiers with his bare hands.

Up to this point, the scaling has been the other way around. The bosses scaled to the BFG, he scaled beyond them do to him being able to demolish those beings with ease, and the Titan scaled directly to him.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

It actually doesn't scale to him. He's recorded as being able to one-shot all of the boss-tiers with his bare hands.
Up to this point, the scaling has been the other way around. The bosses scaled to the BFG, he scaled beyond them do to him being able to demolish those beings with ease, and the Titan scaled directly to him.

Really? I haven't played 2016 DOOM. But I figured that enemies like the Cyberdemon would be capable of surviving hits from Doomguy. And the BFG can harm those guys. I dunno.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Well, yes and no. In-game, they can harm him, but the lore puts him far above every demon except The Titan, and Glory Kills show that he's capable of one-shotting the Cyberdemon and the Hell Guards with physical attacks.