Problems With The BFG9000

[MrKingOfNegativity]

We have some issues here, and I think it's important that they're resolved as soon as possible.

Our current calc for the BFG9000 is what we're scaling all of our high-tier DOOM profiles to. Under most circumstances, I would be fine with this. Happy, even. But we can't do that anymore, for two reasons:

1. There are now three versions of the weapon. The fact of the matter is that our current calc is based on the BFG from DOOM 3, a game which is set in a completely different continuity from the other games. In reality, the gun from DOOM 1, II and 64 should be treated as a separate entity from that of DOOM 3, and the one from DOOM 2016 (which is left vague as to whether or not it's tied to the original games) is made by a different manufacturer from any of the previous versions, so it needs to be its own separate entity as well.

2. The DOOM 3 BFG doesn't do what the calc blog says it does. The "vaporization" shown in the calc blog is just the game's means of removing corpses from the map in order to prevent the engine from slowing down. It's not an intended side-effect of the gun, and shouldn't be treated as such.

I don't know how we're going to go about solving this, but it needs to be done. Nothing we do with the game's high-tier profiles is going to be accurate until we do.

 

[Js250476]

Plus In Doom 3 the description just says anything hit by it isn't likely to survive,it didn't say anything about vaporization so I'm a little confused there

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

The blog bases the "vaporization" on the in-game feature of bodies disintegrating when they're killed.

Problem is, they always do that. Explosive weapons just trigger the animation faster than normal ones.

 

[Js250476]

Ah alright then I can see why this is a problem then

 

[VersusJunkie54]

So what could this mean? That the 7-C keys are false?

Edit: Also the calc assumes that the target is one big spherical bal of human flesh. So there's a bit of a problem right there

 

[Js250476]

If what King says is true then it appears so

 

[Therefir]

This should be fixed.

 

[Numbersguy]

1) The profiles are composite versions of all the feats in the games.

2) That happened in the Id Tech 3 engine (Doom 3), in the Id Tech 4 engine (Doom 3: BFG Edition) that doesn't happen. The only way for a monster to dissapear is to kill it with explosives.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

1. Did not know that.

2. If every explosive can do this, then what makes the BFG so special as to where it needs a calc of such? It still seems like a gameplay mechanic.

 

[Numbersguy]

Well, it kills everything on 15x15 meter radius... that is some firepower

 

[Therefir]

The problem is that BFG can't really vaporize people, is just a gameplay mechanic.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

I mean yeah, 15x15 meter explosive radius is something serious. But if every explosive (including simple grenades) disintegrates enemies, then said properties aren't inherent to the BFG itself. They're just something that happens in-game.

A 15x15 explosion is one thing. But what we currently have implies that "disintegration of flesh" is something inherent to the BFG's shockwave. Which it isn't.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

And actually, I just found this gameplay video, and from what it shows, even a point-blank shotgun blast is capable of doing this to enemies. You see it right at the beginning.

This is from the "Lost Missions" which are exclusive to the BFG Edition.

 

[Js250476]

Yeah this definitely sounds like a game mechanic to me now if something like a shotgun does the same thing

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Another thing the video shows immediately afterwards is that the same shotgun can't "vaporize" a body that was already dead prior to DOOM 3!Doomguy arriving. Whoever's playing the game just shoots a random corpse with it, and all we see is a bunch of regular decals embed themselves in the dead guy's leg.

I think we need someone to recalc the BFG shockwave as a regular 15x15 explosion, since there's no other evidence which seems to suggest that it's anything more than that. It's most likely going to result in a massive downgrade for every profile involved, but it seems mandatory at this point.

 

[Therefir]

Wall level doomguy incoming...

 

[Js250476]

Master Chief vs Doomguy rematch when OvO

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Lol. He won't be Wall level, trust me. Doom Slayer still directly scales to The Titan, who should be at least City Block level through its sheer size alone. Him obliterating the Cyberdemon's head in one hit is also still a thing, as is him ripping apart the Hell Guard's armor. (The latter two scale to the BFG directly.)

He'll still be pretty damn strong. Suck it, Chief. He just won't be Town level.

 

[Js250476]

Okay but I'm gonna hold you to this ovo

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Lol. He won't be Wall level, trust me. Doom Slayer still directly scales to The Titan, who should be at least City Block level through its sheer size alone. Him obliterating the Cyberdemon's head in one hit is also still a thing, as is him ripping apart the Hell Guard's armor. (The latter two scale to the BFG directly.)
He'll still be pretty damn strong. Suck it, Chief. He just won't be Town level.

City Block Level? Doomguy vs Guts here we come!

 

[Js250476]

Granted Guts should really be 8-A based on the OBD profile but whatever

 

[Jockey-1337]

It seems to me that the part of the Spider Boss has been vaporized


https://i.ytimg.com/vi/n-fkrtW5P4c/maxresdefault.jpg

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

We can maybe use that as a backup feat. But it probably won't yield anything close to what's currently being used.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

We can maybe use that as a backup feat. But it probably won't yield anything close to what's currently being used.

That volume of flesh that was vaporized(If it was) would likely Yield 8-C+ to low end High 8-C AP.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

The main problem is that we never confirm whether or not it was actually "vaporized" to begin with. All we see is 1) him charging the BFG at point-blank range, and 2) a large chunk of the Spider Mastermind's head simply disappearing in the resulting explosion.

A prior VS thread suggested that it was pulverization rather than vaporization. I couldn't tell you either-or, to be honest.

Should be noted though, part of the Mastermind's head is made of metal. It isn't just flesh.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Pulverization is the highest level of destruction I can see from the BFG in all honesty. I don't think we can assume it'll pulverize everything in a 15x15 meter radius. The picture I saw was mostly flesh with bits and pieces of metal so I don't think it would matter that much.


Edit: I decided to try a quick calculation on IF the BFG pulverized targets within a 15 meter radius.

Pulverization of the human body according to the Calculation page is 12.9 J/cc

15x15 meters is 14137166900 cubic centimeters. So that x 12.9 = 182369453010 joules. Or 43.58 tons of tnt.Mid City Block level. Consistent with Doomguy fighting the Titan or something.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

I don't really think it does that, but we can probably use that if it's decided that it does. There isn't any proof which suggests that it does so, though.

I sent in a request yesterday to have it calc'd as a simple explosion with a 15-meter radius, since that's all were're really told as far as its function in DOOM 3. (Other than the fact that it sends out energy streams to "soften targets before detonation". DOOM 2016's BFG does something similar, but the codex entry in that game expounds upon it further than the info video within DOOM 3 does)

 

[VersusJunkie54]

I also calculated Fragmentation and Violent fragmentation just for the hell of it.

Fragmentation. 62203534360 joules or 14.86 tons of tnt. Baseline 8-B

Violent fragmentation. 106495278258 joules or 25.45 tons of tnt. Low-mid end 8-B

So either way it will be 8-B. But that is assuming it even does this in a 15x15 meter radius.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Actually, yeah, I kind of saw this coming about the calc coming from the Doom 3 incarnation; which is non-canon to the primary continuity. However, in Doom 2016 it legit does vaporize targets and it has a blast radius at least as big as the Doom 3 incarnation. Plus the bosses are still more than capable of taking multiple hits from the BFG 9000 (2016 version), so it would still easily scale to them; albeit maybe separate keys are in order.

Anyway, Doom 3 Marine might get his own profile eventually, in which his strongest weapons being the BFG 9000 and the Soul Cube would only be 8-B. Doomslayer is easily 7-C as are the 2016 version of BFG, Cyberdemon, Hell Guard, and Spider-Mastermind. The classic versions might have a downgrade in order, sadly.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

DDM.

Mind providing proof that it does vaporise?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This wiki says it vaporizes them, and it also says it has the same blast radius as the Doom 3 version in the trivia section. I'll find a video in a moment.

Edit: here it is

 

[Therefir]

It was a guy called Captain J who put that, we don't know if that it's true.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

This wiki says it vaporizes them, and it also says it has the same blast radius as the Doom 3 version in the trivia section. I'll find a video in a moment.

Yes please find a video. Many Wikis aren't known for reliability and its rare that we scale characters off of wiki statements.. (EG Alien X being Omnipotent)


Edit: Just watched it. The BFG seemed to reduce them to bloody chunks rather than vaporise them. If it were true vaporization then there would be nothing left. From what I can tell its violent fragmentation at best.

 

[Therefir]

Edit: here it is

It looks like they are in pieces, it's not vaporization.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Edit: here it is

It looks like they are in pieces, it's not vaporization.

Even if it was it would be ilogical to assume that the 15X15 meter radius means a giant spherical ball of flesh. If it can be proven its vaporization it would be better to calc beased off of the number of enemies it kills with a single blast.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

See, there are two things that needs to be clarified.

1. The BFG in the video (linked above) is shown blasting multiple enemies to pieces, not vaporizing them completely. You can still see small midair chunks of each enemy after the blast detonates. Any number of enemies caught within the blast radius will wind up being obliterated by it, true. But they aren't vaporized. At most, they're pulverized or violently fragged.

2. The only other real scaling Doom Slayer has (that isn't tied to the BFG) is his direct scaling to the Titan, who was calc'd to weigh around 14.255 KT. The main problem with that is that 14.255 KT of body weight does not equate to 14.255 KT of TNT.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

See, there are two things that needs to be clarified.
1. The BFG in the video (linked above) is shown blasting multiple enemies to pieces, not vaporizing them completely. You can still see small midair chunks of each enemy after the blast detonates. Any number of enemies caught within the blast radius will wind up being obliterated by it, true. But they aren't vaporized. At most, they're pulverized.

2. The only other real scaling Doom Slayer has (that isn't tied to the BFG) is his direct scaling to the Titan, who was calc'd to weigh around 14.255 KT. The main problem with that is that 14.255 KT of body weight does not equate to 14.255 KT of TNT.

Plus even if it were vaporization. It looked like there were 12 enemies in that room. 300 megajoules(Vaporization of Human) x 12 =3600 or 0.81 tons of tnt. 8-C Tho Its not that weak, the BFG is most likely 8-B

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

True, but combined that with the fact that his movement speed is 295 m/s at bare minimum, and the kinetic energy is 620,270,687,500 joules or 148.24 tons of TNT; which is 8-A. And keep in mind, that using the weight of an entire body with movement speed is generally accepted; I know using mass of their fist combined with combat speed is Calc Stacking.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

True, but combined that with the fact that his movement speed is 295 m/s at bare minimum, and the kinetic energy is 620,270,687,500 joules or 148.24 tons of TNT; which is 8-A. And keep in mind, that using the weight of an entire body with movement speed is generally accepted; I know using mass of their fist combined with combat speed is Calc Stacking.

8-A seems more beleiveable. But I beleive proof is still needed.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I calc'd the size of the Titan on another thread; it was backed up with someone comparing the size of the Titan's head to Doomslayer's height and noticing the shape of the Titan is the same as Cyberdemon.