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Prime Rayleigh

Is "Prime" Rayleigh a thing in verse? I know Prime Whitebeard is a thing and is talked about by characters in verse but since I don't know to much about One Piece as a whole I wanted to know if the characters even talked about Rayleigh's "Prime"?
 
LordGriffin1000 said:
Is "Prime" Rayleigh a thing in verse? I know Prime Whitebeard is a thing and is talked about by characters in verse but since I don't know to much about One Piece as a whole I wanted to know if the characters even talked about Rayleigh's "Prime"?
Click to expand...
It's implied that ever since Roger was executed, "old" Rayleigh never touched his sword until the straw hats were in danger and remarked "it's been a while since I touched a sword"
 
Old Rayleigh apparently has stamina issues, whereas Prime Rayleigh can fight alongside Roger's pirates against the Whitebeard's pirates for three days
 
Is there really enough of a difference or a need to necessitate a key that is just "somewhat better by an unknown degree than his old self"?
 
Don't we also treat the old characters as being no weaker than their prime versions with the exception of things like stamina? Meaning, the only difference here would be that Rayleigh's stamina is much higher.

Though at the same time, characters such as Sengoku and Garp have a prime key, so like, if they get one, no reason Rayleigh shouldn't as well.
 
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I agree with this, for his ap justification we can also mention that he's confident in defeating Oden, keeping in mind he has the ability to sense how powerful people are with his observation haki.
 
Eminiteable said:
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That doesn't prove what you said at all
  • That's Rayleigh + Scopper 2v1ing Oden
  • I don't recall there being any evidence that Rayleigh in his youth can sense the strength of things with his CoO, that's an Old Rayleigh feat.
  • Nowhere does Rayleigh express confidence that he's able to beat Oden, all that is implied is that they're able to fight him, which is obvious given that they're both 6-B.
  • It's unclear if Rayleigh is able to precisely see how strong someone is with it, he was able to tell how many animals were stronger than Luffy roughly, but it's not like he saw that Luffy was a 10 and they were a 50 like a Dragon Ball scouter for example.
 
Purgy said:
That doesn't prove what you said at all
  • That's Rayleigh + Scopper 2v1ing Oden
  • I don't recall there being any evidence that Rayleigh in his youth can sense the strength of things with his CoO, that's an Old Rayleigh feat.
  • Nowhere does Rayleigh express confidence that he's able to beat Oden, all that is implied is that they're able to fight him, which is obvious given that they're both 6-B.
  • It's unclear if Rayleigh is able to precisely see how strong someone is with it, he was able to tell how many animals were stronger than Luffy roughly, but it's not like he saw that Luffy was a 10 and they were a 50 like a Dragon Ball scouter for example.
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Scopper has no feats, unless we count the anime where he continually fought Oden as an equal.

This literally happened a year before they found one piece and the Roger pirates retired, Rayleigh at this point was already in his 50's. It's very unlikely he picked up this ability in retirement where he didn't fight anymore.

"Should we nip this in the bud Rayleigh" "I think so" is confidence.

He doesn't need too.
 
Eminiteable said:
Scopper has no feats, unless we count the anime where he continually fought Oden as an equal.

This literally happened a year before they found one piece and the Roger pirates retired, Rayleigh at this point was already in his 50's. It's very unlikely he picked up this ability in retirement where he didn't fight anymore.

"Should we nip this in the bud Rayleigh" "I think so" is confidence.

He doesn't need too.
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Scopper having no feats is just all the more reason to dismiss this, for all we know, he's literally equal to Rayleigh.

20+ years before Rayleigh actually demonstrated that specific ability of CoO, you need to prove he's able to do it back then, and I don't recall any evidence suggesting he can.

Confidence in maybe being able to beat him with Scoppers help, to me it seems like he's confident in being able to fight him, nothing more.

He does because they're relative by default, if all he can see is the rough strength of someone then all he'd be able to see is that him and Oden are somewhat relative.
 
Purgy said:
20+ years before Rayleigh actually demonstrated that specific ability of CoO, you need to prove he's able to do it back then, and I don't recall any evidence suggesting he can.
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Using this logic then prime Rayleigh key should have no haki listed whatsoever because he could have learned it all in retirement, Rayleigh himself says the true advancements of haki come in battle yet we're supposed to believe he learned it while he was retired and didn't fight whatsoever.
 
Eminiteable said:
Using this logic the prime Rayleigh key should have no haki listed whatsoever because he could have learned it all in retirement, Rayleigh himself says the true advancements of haki come in battle yet we're supposed to believe he learned it while he was retired and didn't fight whatsoever.
Click to expand...
Rayleigh was referring to the higher levels of Haki and how ones Haki grows most quickly in battle, that isn't to say he couldn't have learned the ability to sense someones strength during the 20+ years after his crews disbandment though.
 
Purgy said:
Rayleigh was referring to the higher levels of Haki and how ones Haki grows most quickly in battle, that isn't to say he couldn't have learned the ability to sense someones strength during the 20+ years after his crews disbandment though.
Click to expand...
Fair enough, but if we're going to scrutinize Rayleigh back then having a basic application of observation haki then what proof is there he had any haki back then at all?
 
Eminiteable said:
Fair enough, but if we're going to scrutinize Rayleigh back then having a basic application of observation haki then what proof is there he had any haki back then at all?
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Well I mean, all this suggests to me is that Rayleigh's prime is too vague to have a key and we should wait for more information, because you're right, there's not really any evidence that he had Adv CoA back then either for example.
 
A few notes:

Oden had not reached anywhere near his peak at that point, and Gaban was able to match him during a prolonged fight right afterwards in the anime.

Rayleigh mentioned that he was not near his own old peak while fighting Kizaru.

It is left unclear to what degree old age affects the fighting prowess of characters in this series. Oda has mentioned and shown that it isn't nearly as much as in the real world, but I do not think that it is completely negligible either.
 
KingTempest said:
Faster than his old self.
As strong as, if not stronger then, his old self.
Better stamina.
Etc
Click to expand...
This does not deserve a seperate key.

If we are ready to accept that translation that said "old characters do not get weaker" as fraud then we might as well apply Garp's statement about losing half his strength. Rayleigh is the same age as Garp and he is inactive as well so at least 2x seems more accurate and worthy of a whole other key instead of what @KingTempest proposed.
 
Too Vague?
Purgy said:
Scopper having no feats is just all the more reason to dismiss this, for all we know, he's literally equal to Rayleigh.

20+ years before Rayleigh actually demonstrated that specific ability of CoO, you need to prove he's able to do it back then, and I don't recall any evidence suggesting he can.

Confidence in maybe being able to beat him with Scoppers help, to me it seems like he's confident in being able to fight him, nothing more.

He does because they're relative by default, if all he can see is the rough strength of someone then all he'd be able to see is that him and Oden are somewhat relative.
Click to expand...
Purgy said:
Rayleigh was referring to the higher levels of Haki and how ones Haki grows most quickly in battle, that isn't to say he couldn't have learned the ability to sense someones strength during the 20+ years after his crews disbandment though.
Click to expand...
This is false.

Usopp had an incredible haki growth in battle, and it was the most basic one.
Luffy had an incredible growth in haki during Marineford, and it was the most basic one.

This is headcanon. There is a thing of more potent haki instead of higher levels of Haki.

And if Rayleigh hadn't trained at all, there's no reason for him to know Haki. Busoshoku and Kenbunshoku requires training, and if he hasn't done anything in the past 20+ years, that means that his haki has stayed stagnant if not worsened.
Dr.Fix said:
This does not deserve a seperate key.
Click to expand...
Most of the god tiers with separate keys follow the same exact criteria.
Dr.Fix said:
If we are ready to accept that translation that said "old characters do not get weaker" as fraud then we might as well apply Garp's statement about losing half his strength.
Click to expand...
Where did he ever say he lost half of his strength?
Dr.Fix said:
Rayleigh is the same age as Garp and he is inactive as well so at least 2x seems more accurate and worthy of a whole other key instead of what @KingTempest proposed.
Click to expand...
We don't powerscale weaknesses because of age.
Saying they're the same age so they get the same weakness is false and baseless.



And who in the hell debunked/canceled/shut down that SBS?
 
Dr.Fix said:
If you're pointing out how bad the other profiles are I agree.
Click to expand...
Then I don't agree.
Dr.Fix said:
Pre-TS when he was attacking the Sunny.
Click to expand...
Reread it 8 times and it doesn't say in any official translation that he got "half as weak".
Dr.Fix said:
Lol you creating this thread disagrees with that.
Click to expand...
You make actually no sense at all.
I asked for a thread to give him a new key with better stamina, less weaknesses, faster than him self, and at least as strong as his old self, and you're telling me that I'm implying I want Rayleigh half as weak as his prime self?
 
At least as strong ≠ scales above. I've never even said the 2 words "Scales above" in this thread.

As strong is based on the fact that the sbs said he's as strong as his old self.
At least is based on if Rayleigh's statements possibly say he's stronger.

Please read the points.
 
KingTempest said:
Too Vague?


This is false.

Usopp had an incredible haki growth in battle, and it was the most basic one.
Luffy had an incredible growth in haki during Marineford, and it was the most basic one.

This is headcanon. There is a thing of more potent haki instead of higher levels of Haki.

And if Rayleigh hadn't trained at all, there's no reason for him to know Haki. Busoshoku and Kenbunshoku requires training, and if he hasn't done anything in the past 20+ years, that means that his haki has stayed stagnant if not worsened.
Click to expand...
Show me a statement saying Rayleigh never trained within the 20+ years after his crews disbandment please, because I really don't remember such a thing ever being said.

You can't prove that "prime" Rayleigh was able to sense the strength level of people nor can you prove he was able to use Adv CoA, simply because he's only ever demonstrated these as an old man.

Also my other point still stands, Rayleigh was going to fight Oden alongside Scopper in a 2v1, so no, his AP justification shouldn't be scaling directly to Oden due to "being confident in being able to defeat Oden".
 
There are ways to present one's points while being less confrontational about it...
 
Dr.Fix said:
Please stop trying to have your cake and eat it too. It is upseting.
Click to expand...
Please stop trying to misinterpret my words. It is upsetting.
Purgy said:
Show me a statement saying Rayleigh never trained within the 20+ years after his crews disbandment please, because I really don't remember such a thing ever being said.
Click to expand...
The Roger Pirates disbanded 25 years prior to the current timeline via the vivre cards. That's when he retired.
Vivre card states this.
かつてロジャーの傍らに立ち、〝冥王〟と恐れられた男レイリー。やがて世界の全てを知り、盟友の死を経た彼は、次代を担う若き力の台頭を待ちシャボンディ諸島での長き隠道生活に入ったそして時は来た。
Click to expand...
In the past, Rayleigh stood by Roger's side and was feared as the "Dark Lord". In the end, he knew everything about the world, and after the death of his ally, he entered a long life of seclusion in the Sabaody Archipelago, waiting for the rise of a young force to lead the next generation.
Click to expand...
We know damn well he doesn't train in Sabaody, all he did in Sabaody was coat ships.

You have no proof this 50+ year old man trained. When he wanted to train, he could've swam to Rusukaina and trained there, but it's stated he stayed there.
Purgy said:
You can't prove that "prime" Rayleigh was able to sense the strength level of people nor can you prove he was able to use Adv CoA, simply because he's only ever demonstrated these as an old man.
Click to expand...
I have to prove that the best version of a character can do things that the older and more stagnant version of a character can do? Why do you think we call him PRIME Rayleigh?

Heck you haven't even proven he couldn't.
Purgy said:
Also my other point still stands, Rayleigh was going to fight Oden alongside Scopper in a 2v1, so no, his AP justification shouldn't be scaling directly to Oden due to "being confident in being able to defeat Oden".
Click to expand...
You can say that to Eminiteable and the others, not me. I wasn't the one who said that.
 
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