Prime Rayleigh

[Purgy]

The Roger Pirates disbanded 25 years prior to the current timeline via the vivre cards. That's when he retired.
Vivre card states this.

かつてロジャーの傍らに立ち、〝冥王〟と恐れられた男レイリー。やがて世界の全てを知り、盟友の死を経た彼は、次代を担う若き力の台頭を待ちシャボンディ諸島での長き隠道生活に入ったそして時は来た。

In the past, Rayleigh stood by Roger's side and was feared as the "Dark Lord". In the end, he knew everything about the world, and after the death of his ally, he entered a long life of seclusion in the Sabaody Archipelago, waiting for the rise of a young force to lead the next generation.

This doesn't prove he didn't train, a life of seclusion is a life separated from other people, this has nothing to do with him not training though.

We know damn well he doesn't train in Sabaody, all he did in Sabaody was coat ships.

Is there evidence proving this?

You have no proof this 50+ year old man trained. When he wanted to train, he could've swam to Rusukaina and trained there, but it's stated he stayed there.

Burden of proof

Rayleigh doesn't need to go anywhere to train CoO

You're making the claim that he never trained in those 25 or so years, you need to prove it.

I have to prove that the best version of a character can do things that the older and more stagnant version of a character can do? Why do you think we call him PRIME Rayleigh?

It's his physical prime based on what we see

Rayleigh could have easily learned that shade of CoO after the flashback, you can't prove otherwise.

Heck you haven't even proven he couldn't.

Again, burden of proof, you're making the claim that Younger Rayleigh can do everything Old Man Rayleigh can, prove it.

You can say that to Eminiteable and the others, not me. I wasn't the one who said that.

Fair enough

 

[KingTempest]

This doesn't prove he didn't train, a life of seclusion is a life separated from other people, this has nothing to do with him not training though.

He went on the island where all we know he's done is drink and coat ships. No training was hinted towards. Even Whitebeard, Garp, and Sengoku, the guys who are active fighters, have more proof of otherwise. Saying Rayleigh's trained and learned this level of Haki is absurd.

Is there evidence proving this?

The first time we see him he's in an auction getting sold as a slave because he wants money to gamble.
He said don't refer to him as his strength based epithet he was given in his prime because on Sabaody he wants to coat ships.

Your argument for him training is "you have no proof he didn't train". He was berating himself because he got old.

Burden of proof

Rayleigh doesn't need to go anywhere to train CoO

You're making the claim that he never trained in those 25 or so years, you need to prove it.

When he trained Luffy he sent him to Rusukaina and swung at him with a bat and told him to sense him swinging.
With this logic, all you have to do is activate Armament haki and then you'll be good.
With this logic, everyone could learn CoO like that.

He knows about Mantra being = to Observation Haki, and he wouldn't know the similarities if he hadn't had it when he went to Skypiea 25 years prior.

If anything his Haki would've gotten weaker.

He lost gambling when you can gamble with Kenbunshoku Haki. Nothing proves he would've trained

It's his physical prime based on what we see

The last person we know that references their prime and shows a weakness, it was Whitebeard with his Haki.

Rayleigh could have easily learned that shade of CoO after the flashback, you can't prove otherwise.

You can't prove that statement either, that after 70+ years of fighting alongside a Haki master and another Haki master against other Haki masters,

Again, burden of proof, you're making the claim that Younger Rayleigh can do everything Old Man Rayleigh can, prove it.

I've proven that he hasn't grown at all.

 

[Purgy]

On second thought, ignore what I said

It's equally possible that Rayleigh knew all he knows at his old age in his youth as it is that he didn't and I don't really care enough to keep going in circles about it, so consider this me conceding.

 

[KingTempest]

Thanks for being involved in the CRT regardless.

I'll wait until more staff get involved before I even think of adding it.

 

[Eseseso]

Well, just wanna say that if/when Prime Rayleigh does get his own key, we could say:

Attack Potency: Country Level (As strong as his current self. Fought Kozuki Oden alongside Scopper)

 

[KingTempest]

Well, just wanna say that if/when Prime Rayleigh does get his own key, we could say:

Attack Potency: Country Level (As strong as his current self. Fought Kozuki Oden alongside Scopper)

"Was confident that he could fight Kozuki Oden alongside Scopper Gaban" is better. He didn't fight him canonically

 

[Eseseso]

"Was confident that he could fight Kozuki Oden alongside Scopper Gaban" is better. He didn't fight him canonically

Ah, my mistake. It's a shame that the anime is non-canon, otherwise we could add that he easily fought Marco.

 

[KingTempest]

Ah, my mistake. It's a shame that the anime is non-canon, otherwise we could add that he easily fought Marco.

Even with that, that's an apprentice Marco who has no reason to scale to his older self in his 40s

 

[Eseseso]

Even with that, that's an apprentice Marco who has no reason to scale to his older self in his 40s

Valid.

 

[KingTempest]

Bump

 

[GuildZero]

Honestly we should give prime rayleigh a key once we get more info and feats on him. But if he does get a key why not most likely stronger than his old self

 

[KingTempest]

Bump

 

[Damage3245]

So this is a key with no new abilities, only improved stamina, faster speed to an unknown degree and he's "At least as strong as his other key."

i thought we didn't give out keys for so few differences?

 

[KingTempest]

So this is a key with no new abilities, only improved stamina, faster speed to an unknown degree and he's "At least as strong as his other key."

i thought we didn't give out keys for so few differences?

Higher skill via being a better swordsman than his old self, less weaknesses, higher stamina, faster, etc

 

[Damage3245]

When did he say he was a worse swordsman in the present?

 

[KingTempest]

When did he say he was a worse swordsman in the present?

"I haven't held a sword in a long time" signifying he's rusty, signifying he's not as good as he used to be

 

[Eseseso]

Not to mention he was confident in taking on Oden alongside a crewmate.

 

[Antvasima]

Damage makes sense to me. My apologies.

 

[KingTempest]

I'm confused in which department he does?

He said that we don't give keys for few differences, I named several differences.

He wasn't sure about the swordsmanship portion, I sent the statement.

There's no issue in agreeing, everyone's entitled to their opinion, but his whole argument is a bunch of questions that have been answered.

 

[Damage3245]

The issue isn't just in the number of differences, which still seems quite small to me, it's that the differences themselves aren't significant enough.

1) A better swordsman (due to being out of combat for a while in his old age).

2) Faster to an uncertain degree.

3) Stronger to an uncertain degree.

4) More stamina (could fight for three days in the past and presumably not as long in the present).

Those are the differences, and most of these aren't significant or certain.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Higher skill via being a better swordsman than his old self, less weaknesses, higher stamina, faster, etc

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

The issue isn't just in the number of differences, which still seems quite small to me, it's that the differences themselves aren't significant enough.

1) A better swordsman (due to being out of combat for a while in his old age).

2) Faster to an uncertain degree.

3) Stronger to an uncertain degree.

4) More stamina (could fight for three days in the past and presumably not as long in the present).

Those are the differences, and most of these aren't significant or certain.

Isn’t that the same for white beard? Or?

 

[KingTempest]

The issue isn't just in the number of differences, which still seems quite small to me, it's that the differences themselves aren't significant enough.

1) A better swordsman (due to being out of combat for a while in his old age).

2) Faster to an uncertain degree.

3) Stronger to an uncertain degree.

4) More stamina (could fight for three days in the past and presumably not as long in the present).

Those are the differences, and most of these aren't significant or certain.

1) For around 20 years if we take the statement of him not doing shit since he left the roger pirates

2) Faster than before. uncertain degree is incorrect, it's significantly faster than his older self

3) Struggled with an admiral at his current age, was confident to fight the guy who took a hit from Roger and clashed with WB in his younger state, it's significant.

4) He fought Kizaru for not even 10 minutes and was breathing hard. Comparing that to his 3 days fight, saying it's not significant is funny.

You named a bunch of differences and ignored the facts given to us.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

1) For around 20 years if we take the statement of him not doing shit since he left the roger pirates

2) Faster than before. uncertain degree is incorrect, it's significantly faster than his older self

3) Struggled with an admiral at his current age, was confident to fight the guy who took a hit from Roger and clashed with WB in his younger state, it's significant.

4) He fought Kizaru for not even 10 minutes and was breathing hard. Comparing that to his 3 days fight, saying it's not significant is funny.

You named a bunch of differences and ignored the facts given to us.

Also

Prime Rayleigh >>> Kizaru

 

[Antvasima]

Well, separate statistics do not seem very significant, but I suppose that they won't do any harm either.