Prime Doppo?

[Kerr5]

You said you already calc'd it yea? Just get the maths team to confirm its right. No need for someone else to calc it if you literally already did it.

I didn't make a post about it, maybe later, but i first want to know if anyone is going to scale from Yu, or he's just going straight to 7-C, if that's the case then it just gonna be a waste of time.

 

[Kerr5]

I mean, i will support prime Doppo to scale characters from Yuu and putting MT and NGB characters in 8-C but objectively speaking, i think Prime Doppo should not actually be a thing anymore.

 

[Shmooply]

This thread is getting off-topic again. The Yuu stuff should be handled in a different CRT. I agree with Soda and Twellas' points.

 

[Kerr5]

This thread is getting off-topic again. The Yuu stuff should be handled in a different CRT. I agree with Soda and Twellas' points.

Yup, me too, i really don't want to make an argument about Yuu, i just want to ask to Soda if Yuu is still scaling to other characters since he's making a new scale.

 

[Amlad22]

I really don’t see how anyone could possibly believe that Doppo didn’t get weaker after his fight with Yujiro. All I’m seeing is an attempt to wank 99% of the verse into tier 7. I’ve made my points and debunked everything Twellas and ItalianGuy have said. There’s no point in me saying the same things over and over if nobody is listening.

I’m heavily against this, but the majority will decide the outcome. That’s how we’ve always done things here.

 

[Kerr5]

I really don’t see how anyone could possibly believe that Doppo didn’t get weaker after his fight with Yujiro. All I’m seeing is an attempt to wank 99% of the verse into tier 7. I’ve made my points and debunked everything Twellas and ItalianGuy have said. There’s no point in me saying the same things over and over if nobody is listening.

I’m heavily against this, but the majority will decide the outcome. That’s how we’ve always done things here.

But they're not trying to buff everyone to 7-C, that's what you don't get, Soda actually said on a previous thread that he doesn't think that Dorian scales to Doppo, or characters like that.

I really would prefere to say that Doppo's Power was retconned and dot, without "Prime Doppo", since the manga implies that Doppo became stronger but he didn't one shot Dorian or Ali Jr.

 

[ItalianGuy1234]

Doppo getting weaker is just headcanon, lke I said.

 

[Kerr5]

Doppo getting weaker is just headcanon, lke I said.

Yes it is but the feats says other thing, for that i just think Doppo was retconned.

 

[Kerr5]

Doppo getting weaker is just headcanon, lke I said.

I mean, if Baki seems suprised of Doppo with the water tank while he defeated a man who can destroy war tanks when he was 13, then there's a clear retcon that begins with the 13 yro Baki, and maybe we shouldn't even take the first chapters of the series acount, since is inconsistent with everything else.

That will also quit some things to Yujiro or other characters, such as Yujiro's power increasing all the time, but i prefer that to put Ali Jr. in 7-C

 

[Kerr5]

And before Twellas says that i believe that cuz it's Ali Jr., No, i believe that because Yujiro needed to use the Demon Back to get out of Motobe's grapple, So what? Well, Motobe is far weaker than Doppo, so, if Yujiro used his Demon Back means that originally they was meant to be equals and rivals of Yujiro, but in the MT it was retconned so as everything else, putting Doppo far above Motobe.

 

[Galaxi789]

I mean, if Baki seems suprised of Doppo with the water tank while he defeated a man who can destroy war tanks when he was 13, then there's a clear retcon that begins with the 13 yro Baki, and maybe we shouldn't even take the first chapters of the series acount, since is inconsistent with everything else.

That will also quit some things to Yujiro or other characters, such as Yujiro's power increasing all the time, but i prefer that to put Ali Jr. in 7-C

in the same tournament galen shakes the whole arena and retsu himself thought it was an earthquake so not giving an example like baki being surprised is not a good idea.
Ali jr was considered by yujiro to be someone of a very high level, something that yujiro did not think of baki in the prisoners' arc or yanagui, one who had become stronger after his recovery, considered that receiving a blow Ali jr was dangerous even saying Ali truthfully strong Ali jr has enough feats to climb higher baki or doppo of the tournament

 

[Amlad22]

It’s not headcanon when all the feats show Doppo being weaker. The Filth fight alone proves he got weaker, you don’t need to look any further.

Prime Doppo was able to hurt Yujiro with punches to the face and body along with take many attacks without going down.

Filth shattered his hand punching the side of Yujiro’s head. Far from the weakest part of the skull.

Filth floored MT Doppo with a single punch and was consistently shown to be physically stronger and more durable than him.

If you can honestly look at all that and think that Doppo didn’t get weaker I don’t know what to tell you. It’s very clear that he lost a lot of his power.

 

[Galaxi789]

your argument is purely circular yujiro got stronger every moment get stronger the use of the following fighter does not discredit anything

 

[Kerr5]

in the same tournament galen shakes the whole arena and retsu himself thought it was an earthquake so not giving an example like baki being surprised is not a good idea.
Ali jr was considered by yujiro to be someone of a very high level, something that yujiro did not think of baki in the prisoners' arc or yanagui, one who had become stronger after his recovery, considered that receiving a blow Ali jr was dangerous even saying Ali truthfully strong Ali jr has enough feats to climb higher baki or doppo of the tournament

Yes but is not an Earthquake, he just shaked the Korakuen Arena wich is huge yes, but that's no way close to a Town level feat, look at the Shaking Feats Page, if we assume the Korakuen has the size of an Average City-Block that would be Small Building lvl

It doesn't matter that Yujiro says that when Jack completely destroyed him, and Yujiro thinks in Jack as a piece of crap.
Gaia also was stated numerous times to be comparable to Yujiro but Yujiro outclassed like 0 diff.

 

[Galaxi789]

It’s not headcanon when all the feats show Doppo being weaker. The Filth fight alone proves he got weaker, you don’t need to look any further.

Prime Doppo was able to hurt Yujiro with punches to the face and body along with take many attacks without going down.

Filth shattered his hand punching the side of Yujiro’s head. Far from the weakest part of the skull.

Filth floored MT Doppo with a single punch and was consistently shown to be physically stronger and more durable than him.

If you can honestly look at all that and think that Doppo didn’t get weaker I don’t know what to tell you. It’s very clear that he lost a lot of his power.

character weaker than another is happy to hurt stronger characters chiba managed to hurt baki a much stronger one being fodder flin hurt doppo does not discredit anything

 

[Kerr5]

character weaker than another is happy to hurt stronger characters chiba managed to hurt baki a much stronger one being fodder flin hurt doppo does not discredit anything

Shiba did not "Hurt Baki" He broke his fingers while making his eyes bleed, i hope i don't have to explain you why that is far below what Flint did

 

[Galaxi789]

Yes but is not an Earthquake, he just shaked the Korakuen Arena wich is huge yes, but that's no way close to a Town level feat, look at the Shaking Feats Page, if we assume the Korakuen has the size of an Average City-Block that would be Small Building lvl

It doesn't matter that Yujiro says that when Jack completely destroyed him, and Yujiro thinks in Jack as a piece of crap.
Gaia also was stated numerous times to be comparable to Yujiro but Yujiro outclassed like 0 diff.

yujiro never promoted gaia as someone strong and that makes sense even if from his perspective he was someone strong I remember you yujiro increases power quickly while ali declared it and assured that he was extremely strong second Jack the defeat Jack has has a context that the whole time ali was sports fighter not like them who fought death so he can't even baki considered that a hit Ali jr could seriously hurt him

 

[Kerr5]

character weaker than another is happy to hurt stronger characters chiba managed to hurt baki a much stronger one being fodder flin hurt doppo does not discredit anything

By the other hand that ""Argument"" can be used to say that "Prime Doppo" is 9-A

 

[Kerr5]

yujiro never promoted gaia as someone strong and that makes sense even if from his perspective he was someone strong I remember you yujiro increases power quickly while ali declared it and assured that he was extremely strong second Jack the defeat Jack has has a context that the whole time ali was sports fighter not like them who fought death so he can't even baki considered that a hit Ali jr could seriously hurt him

Yujiro did it with Amanai and he killed him with one casual attack.
Yujiro power increases quickly is an argument only if you accept that all other characters used to be comparable to him but he became stronger which would nerf Yujiro.

 

[Kerr5]

yujiro never promoted gaia as someone strong and that makes sense even if from his perspective he was someone strong I remember you yujiro increases power quickly while ali declared it and assured that he was extremely strong second Jack the defeat Jack has has a context that the whole time ali was sports fighter not like them who fought death so he can't even baki considered that a hit Ali jr could seriously hurt him

Also what the **** with Jack argument, like, "Ali never fought to death so for that he loss to someone who is thousand of times weaker than him"? What kind of shitty argument is that?

 

[Galaxi789]

By the other hand that ""Argument"" can be used to say that "Prime Doppo" is 9-A

it's not just shows characters it doesn't stay static in power

 

[Galaxi789]

Yujiro did it with Amanai and he killed him with one casual attack.
Yujiro power increases quickly is an argument only if you accept that all other characters used to be comparable to him but he became stronger which would nerf Yujiro.

baki presumably if he was weaker doppo at that time but that only supports that baki presumably katsumi hanayama and retsu became much stronger than doppo during arena gakuen tournament. in yujiro humiliating amanai there is nothing strange since yuniro's power constantly increases amanai was exhausted after having combat

 

[Kerr5]

it's not just shows characters it doesn't stay static in power

Empty comment

baki presumably if he was weaker doppo at that time but that only supports that baki presumably

No, there's a huge scaling chain it's not just "Baki presumably", and please, use commas, is really hard to understand you if you don't use them.

katsumi hanayama and retsu became much stronger than doppo during arena gakuen tournament.

Doppo easily overpowering and totally humilliating Dorian who easily defeated Katsumi, who was comparable to Hanayama, this doesn't has any base, you just said it without a single argument.

in yujiro humiliating amanai there is nothing strange since yuniro's power constantly increases amanai was exhausted after having combat

It's not just humilliating, is the fact that he killed him with a casual punch and he being exhaust doesn't change that, also, how fast Yujiro's power grow?, i mean he just pass from thinking Amanai is strong and even let him slap his face to think he's trash and kill him with a casual strike, he just became several times stronger in a few minutes or what?, then why is Baki able to have a fight with him if his power increase so much? You are not saying anything, i just told you that Yujiro saying that someone is strong doesn't prove anything and you didn't gave me a true counterargument, just pure headcannon and speculation with not even arguments at all.

 

[Kerr5]

baki presumably if he was weaker doppo at that time but that only supports that baki presumably katsumi hanayama and retsu became much stronger than doppo during arena gakuen tournament. in yujiro humiliating amanai there is nothing strange since yuniro's power constantly increases amanai was exhausted after having combat

And i repeat: If we accept that far weaker characters can hurt stronger characters then "Prime" Doppo is just 9-A

 

[Galaxi789]

.

Empty comment

No, there's a huge scaling chain it's not just "Baki presumably", and please, use commas, is really hard to understand you if you don't use them.

Doppo easily overpowering and totally humilliating Dorian who easily defeated Katsumi, who was comparable to Hanayama, this doesn't has any base, you just said it without a single argument.

It's not just humilliating, is the fact that he killed him with a casual punch and he being exhaust doesn't change that, also, how fast Yujiro's power grow?, i mean he just pass from thinking Amanai is strong and even let him slap his face to think he's trash and kill him with a casual strike, he just became several times stronger in a few minutes or what?, then why is Baki able to have a fight with him if his power increase so much? You are not saying anything, i just told you that Yujiro saying that someone is strong doesn't prove anything and you didn't gave me a true counterargument, just pure headcannon and speculation with not even arguments at all.

doppo defeating Dorian just means that he became stronger since tournament the same case Shiba that characters don't become weak increases power that would make Shiba climb if katsumi , baki and hanayama were stronger than doppo that yujiro fought forget her. strydun statement that while conversing with baki yujiro he became much stronger and that it has to do with how he kills amanai that just means normal yujiro <doppo <yujiro demon back >doppo<amanai <casual yujiro

 

[Kerr5]

I can see that first, you don't get my point, second, you really don't know how to express your ideas properly, third, you didn't read the manga since you think that Amanai is stronger than Doppo when Doppo always had the advantage during the whole fight lmao.

 

[Kerr5]

Also i never said Shiba became weaker, i said that he hurted Baki eyes breaking his fingers, the eyes, breaking his fingers, that's no way close to what characters like Flint or Yuu did to Doppo.

 

[Antvasima]

What do the rest of the people here think about this? It seems to make sense to me, but I have no way to verify.

Perhaps the connected evidence/scans can be posted, after which I can ask other staff members?

@Tllmbrg @Dark-Carioca @EliminatorVenom @Amlad22 @Anttron224 @BakiHanma @EmperorRorepme @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless

 

[Antvasima]

Also, have you all reached any conclusions here yet, and if so, what?

 

[Kerr5]

Also, have you all reached any conclusions here yet, and if so, what?

I still thinking that Doppo was just retconned and dot, but it seems i'm the only one who think that.

Also, i'm thinking on making a blog post with a ton of quantifiable feats that wasn't calculated, just like the Amanai one, or Retsu destroying obsidian.

 

[NotoriouSoda]

I still thinking that Doppo was just retconned but it seems i'm the only one who think that.

There’s no evidence for this. None of my points were debunked in the OP. In fact nobody has debunked anything since they can’t answer the fact Yujiro grows stronger insanely fast throughout the series. Amlad points don’t even address it because it would go against his entire point. In fact the reason Baki scaling is a problem is because we just don’t accept it stupid crazy.

 

[Kerr5]

There’s no evidence for this. None of my points were debunked in the OP. In fact nobody has debunked anything since they can’t answer the fact Yujiro grows stronger insanely fast throughout the series. Amlad points don’t even address it because it would go against his entire point. In fact the reason Baki scaling is a problem is because we just don’t accept it stupid crazy.

You mean because there's a ton of things that alterates Baki character's AP and stats in general and Baki has one of the most complicated combat systems? i mean, if you think more about the insanity amount of things they present you'll see how complicated it is, and i completely agree with that.

Anyways, the reason of why i think that Doppo was retconned it's because feats in the first chapters are far below even to the feats shown even in the 13 yr/o saga, because Yujiro needed his Demon Back for Motobe, because Baki get's suprised about Doppo doing a Wall lvl Feat lmao, it's clear that Itagaki never planned to make such an exaggerated power scale and he originally was trying to be more realistic.

 

[Kerr5]

You mean because there's a ton of things that alterates Baki character's AP and stats in general and Baki has one of the most complicated combat systems? i mean, if you think more about the insanity amount of things they present you'll see how complicated it is, and i completely agree with that.

Anyways, the reason of why i think that Doppo was retconned it's because feats in the first chapters are far below even to the feats shown even in the 13 yr/o saga, because Yujiro needed his Demon Back for Motobe, because Baki get's suprised about Doppo doing a Wall lvl Feat lmao, it's clear that Itagaki never planned to make such an exaggerated power scale and he originally was trying to be more realistic.

Also the manga shows Kureha having superhuman characteristics as something impressive and well... Y'know.

 

[NotoriouSoda]

Anyways, the reason of why i think that Doppo was retconned it's because feats in the first chapters are far below even to the feats shown even in the 13 yr/o saga, because Yujiro needed his Demon Back for Motobe, because Baki get's suprised about Doppo doing a Wall lvl Feat lmao, it's clear that Itagaki never planned to make such an exaggerated power scale and he originally was trying to be more realistic.

No? That’s not how that works. Pickle and Musashi never shown feats above wall level are they not supposed to scale? No just because the feats perform are not at that level doesn’t mean they been retconned. The first point can be answered as simply as Yujiro in the beginning needed the DB. But as he grow stronger he outpace everybody. Baki getting surprised also doesn’t mean anything, any character can get surprised at an event. Pickle literally surprises the entire cast with his power yet he doesn’t perform a feat that level. No I think it’s because the vs of Baki has been so outdated and convoluted with scaling this and that people forget the answers are right there in front of them.

Yujiro grows stronger throughout his life. Doppo fights him evenly till DB. MT happens and Katsumi is physically superior to Doppo even before the Yujiro fight. Katsumi then loses to Dorian and Doppo beats the shit out of Dorain. These characters grow stronger, it’s that simple. **** 13 Baki grows from Hanayama to Yujiro at least 20 times stronger. These characters are basically Saiyans.

 

[Kerr5]

No? That’s not how that works. Pickle and Musashi never shown feats above wall level are they not supposed to scale? No just because the feats perform are not at that level doesn’t mean they been retconned.

I'm not saying that, Pickle and Musashi never was like "Whoa he make a Wall lvl feat impossible he's far stronger than anything i ever seen!", or "Oh my god he has superhuman strenght i have no chance against him how can he be a superhuman that's just so above me!"

The first point can be answered as simply as Yujiro in the beginning needed the DB. But as he grow stronger he outpace everybody.

Yes, that's exaclty my point, that Yujiro should be above a casual 15.25 kilo feat, so Motobe should be too, no, he shouldn't, Yujiro being weaker is simply because he was retconned.
If he needed the Demon Back for Motobe and he wasn't retconned, That will make Kinryuuzan at the very least 7-C, which will make Igari and even Sikorsky 7-C

Pickle literally surprises the entire cast with his power yet he doesn’t perform a feat that level.

They usually get suprised about he overpowering characters like Retsu or matching characters like Yujiro, no about him destroying walls.

Yujiro grows stronger throughout his life. Doppo fights him evenly till DB. MT happens and Katsumi is physically superior to Doppo even before the Yujiro fight. Katsumi then loses to Dorian and Doppo beats the shit out of Dorain. These characters grow stronger, it’s that simple.

If you think that everybody is above MT Yujiro, then that would make everybody 7-C and honestly there's more 9-A feats that 7-C so God Tiers are going to 8-A at best buddy.
You can't just upscale the whole cast because one feat when they are constantly below it, a retcon, or 8-A Yujiro, you choose, i prefer a Retcon (Even the fact that Baki was affraid of Yujiro, his personality was different, and the whole cast in general just wasn't like they are after the retcon proves this)

These characters are basically Saiyans.

Saiyans doesn't get tens of thousands of times stronger in like one week lmao.

 

[Dark-Carioca]

@Tllmbrg @Dark-Carioca @EliminatorVenom @Amlad22 @Anttron224 @BakiHanma @EmperorRorepme @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless

I wanted to see what conclusions those who know better reached. I know Baki somewhat but not to a great extent, so I'm waiting to see who brings up the best arguments and how it's settled.

 

[Kerr5]

I wanted to see what conclusions those who know better reached. I know Baki somewhat but not to a great extent, so I'm waiting to see who brings up the best arguments and how it's settled.

I'm literally rereading the whole franchise from the beggining taking note of every relevant event (Currently i'm in the middle of NGB) and i will say this.

Grappler Baki franchise prior 13yr/o Baki should not be taked account, there was a clear Retcon.
From the begginig, Baki never spoke about his father killing his mother until the Maximum Tournament which happens after the 13yr/o saga, he also had a different personality, being much more happy and optimistic, also much more idealistic and a bit coward (He got affraid of Kureha just because he believed that he was a superhuman) oh yeah, and he also get amazed of a superhuman like if that's the first time he saw something like that.
Characters in general has way different personalities, feats are much more realistic and after the 13yr/o saga, the beggining was never taking account again.

I think that we should just put a Retcon, like Yujiro pre retcon "At least 9-B, (equal to Pre-Retcon Doppo who destroyed a tank of water), higher with Demon Back (Easily overpowered Doppo)" post retcon "At least 7-C, casually stopped an earthquake with his punch"

 

[Dark-Carioca]

oh yeah, and he also get amazed of a superhuman like if that's the first time he saw something like that

That always happens in the franchise, even now, to be fair.

 

[Kerr5]

That always happens in the franchise, even now, to be fair.

Yes, but that's not my point, i'm saying that Baki didn't want to fight him because he thinked he didn't stood a chance, and he also was extremely affraid of Pre-Retcon Yujiro.

Meaning: Pre-Retcon Baki is way more coward and insecure.

Motobe treathens to kill Doppo for no actual reason at all, meaning: Pre-Retcon Motobe is way more aggresive.

There's a ton of moments like that, if you give a few hours i can give you dozens, not only the power scale and feats, but personalities and narrative also is way different to the post 13yr/o Baki version.

 

[Kerr5]

The Motobe part is the worst for me, i don't see someone who is able to risk his life to avoid Musashi killing people threatening death someone like he did.
I also just can't see someone like Baki who already fought tons of people who tried to kill him being affraid af someone just because he think he's weaker.

Just think it this way:

Stuff happens
Appears a new saga which is a 4 year old flash back, in which happens new stuff that completely contradicts previously seen
The manga continues post 4 year old flash back without explaining what happened at all.