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Prime All Might Multiplier - Possible Discussion Thread Rule Addition After?

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Damage3245 said:
Yes... I'm not denying that Prime All Might is stronger to some degree. But all of the context and other statements indicate that the gap is not as high as 60x.

Again, it's not like All Might explicitly said "I was sixty times stronger in my prime." If that was the wording of it, or it was similar to that, then we'd have something solid to work with.

We have multiple characters not noticing a substantial drop in All Might's performance, All For One makes Nomu who he thinks stands a chance against All Might, and Endeavor recognizes post-surgery Shigaraki's physical abilities as being on par with All Might.
Click to expand...
All of this, and I mean ALL of this has been taken care of in this thread. Do we have to copy and paste our past replies now?
 
ShigarakiShimura said:
All of this, and I mean ALL if this has been taken care of in this thread
Click to expand...
Well an important thing to consider is this: Just because you think you disproved a point does not mean you disproved the point to the public.

The point of a CRT is to reach a public consensus about something, even if you ultimately disagree (or agree) with that consensus. If we're going in a circle we can just call a vote to finish it.
 
If the claim is “All Might is just way more durable than his AP, so his Prime Durability hasn’t changed,” then that means Kamino AFO should still be equal in AP to Prime AM’s durability, which means Shigaraki is even stronger than Prime AM, but Star disproves that.
Damage3245 said:
Yes... I'm not denying that Prime All Might is stronger to some degree. But all of the context and other statements indicate that the gap is not as high as 60x.

Again, it's not like All Might explicitly said "I was sixty times stronger in my prime." If that was the wording of it, or it was similar to that, then we'd have something solid to work with.

We have multiple characters not noticing a substantial drop in All Might's performance, All For One makes Nomu who he thinks stands a chance against All Might, and Endeavor recognizes post-surgery Shigaraki's physical abilities as being on par with All Might.
Click to expand...
How can you claim Prime AM is remotely stronger at all if your claims are backed by people saying otherwise? Nomu isn’t claimed to be almost as strong as him, he’s stated to BE as strong as All Might by the person that fought Prime AM, so by your interpretation has to mean his prime. Except he isn’t as strong as his prime, because AM states that his prime would have beaten Nomu in just 5 hits compared to his current Plus Ultra’s over 300 hits.

So the gap has to be substantial, you’re just ignoring that to claim “yeah a gap exists but it’s not 60x” without providing any reasoning for what it could be with things contradicting your stance. It’s like you’re using parts of the evidence to back you up, but are then ignoring other parts so that you don’t contradict yourself.

So if there was no substantial drop in his power, why can people not as powerful as him kill things that are supposed to be that strong? Are you also in the completely unfounded “Nomu aren’t as durable as their AP” camp despite Nomu not tearing their bodies apart with simple movements? Despite Mirio straight up commenting on the Near High Ends durability when comparing them to Hood, meaning all of their durability is the same? Or do you just think All Might never lost his Prime Durability to begin with, which means you think Kamino AFO and 97% Shigaraki are on that level, but weaker than Star?

Like I don’t fully understand where your conclusion is coming from when every statement we have is in some way contradicted by either another statement or a feat, regardless of what stance on the multiplier you have.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Well an important thing to consider is this: Just because you think you disproved a point does not mean you disproved the point to the public.

The point of a CRT is to reach a public consensus about something, even if you ultimately disagree (or agree) with that consensus. If we're going in a circle we can just call a vote to finish it.
Click to expand...
No I'm fine with people disagreeing with my points. But if they haven't responded to them and they still say the same points I responded to all I'm left to think is that they're ignoring the debunks and that they're wrong. I'm fine with people disagreeing as long as they give a reason.
 
Therefir said:
I'm on the same boat as Prime AM being stronger, nobody is denying is that, just not to that massive degree.
Click to expand...
When All For One says that USJ Nomu is as strong as All Might, do you believe he is lying or ignorant of the power of the person he fought and nearly killed?

Because if you believe he is correct in saying that, then you believe that USJ All Might has durability equal to his prime, making Kamino AFO equal to AM’s Prime, making 97% Shigaraki stronger than his Prime, but still weaker than Star.

Saying “he’s stronger but not to a big degree” when all of your sources are showing the difference is either large or he’s the exact same person doesn’t make sense to me. Saying his durability is different just brings up confusion regarding his fight at Kamino. Saying Nomu isn’t that strong means that AFO in his entirety is somehow unreliable for scaling Prime’s strength.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
When All For One says that USJ Nomu is as strong as All Might, do you believe he is lying or ignorant of the power of the person he fought and nearly killed?

Because if you believe he is correct in saying that, then you believe that USJ All Might has durability equal to his prime, making Kamino AFO equal to AM’s Prime, making 97% Shigaraki stronger than his Prime, but still weaker than Star.

Saying “he’s stronger but not to a big degree” when all of your sources are showing the difference is either large or he’s the exact same person doesn’t make sense to me. Saying his durability is different just brings up confusion regarding his fight at Kamino. Saying Nomu isn’t that strong means that AFO in his entirety is somehow unreliable for scaling Prime’s strength.
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Why would Kamino AFO be equal to AM's Prime? Kamino AFO didn't fight U.S.J. All Might.
 
Damage3245 said:
Why would Kamino AFO be equal to AM's Prime? Kamino AFO didn't fight U.S.J. All Might.
Click to expand...
Do you believe that Kamino AM’s durability dropped significantly from USJ to Kamino, when previously it has not?

If you think Kamino AM had a durability drop, something you haven’t proven at all and is actually used by Therefir to VERIFY his durability being so high, then I would ask for any reasoning whatsoever for that to be the case.
 
These are the current running assumptions for AM presented by those that believe the gap between weakened and Prime doesn’t exist.

1) AM’s Plus Ultra punches are equal to his Prime punches (contradicted by his own statement that his Prime could do in 5 punches what his Plu Ultra needed 300 punches to do)

2) His durability is equal to his prime in order to withstand his Plus Ultra Punches (Contradicted by him being harmed by someone weaker than his Prime, Kamino AFO)

3) Nomu/High Ends are as strong as Prime AM but not as durable (Contradicted by them not being harmed by their own power, a consistent theme in the show that would absolutely be mentioned, as well as statements on their stats)

4) All Might had a massive durability drop from USJ to Kamino (Unfounded assumption)

5) The Nomu that was with Shigaraki vs Star is a specially crafted outlier solely for durability. (Unfounded assumption, shown in the Final Act that AFO gave the NHE’s extra quirks, something they would have picked up with the jets during Star’s fight)

Am I missing anything?

Edit: added the arguments against each assumption/point as well
 
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@Kingofwolves999 I would rephrase it as;

1) AM's Plus Ultra punches are not 60x weaker than his Prime punches.

2) His durability is not 60x lower than his durability in his Prime.

3) The U.S.J. Nomu is intended to be comparable to All Might. Otherwise, why would they bother?

4) All Might was steadily growing weaker ever since he gave One For All to Deku, so there would be some drop between U.S.J. and Kamino. (Doesn't stop All Might from still going Plus Ultra since he managed to use the remainder of One For All to one-shot All For One).

5) The Near High-End that was present in the Star and Stripe fight isn't relevant to the multiplier.


And if you insist on bringing up that Near High-End... How do you account for the fact that Star and Stripe arc Shigaraki is purportedly at a comparable level of physical ability as Prime All Might according to Best Jeanist - but the Near High-End which is comparable to him in durability is supposed to be 60x weaker according to you?
 
Damage3245 said:
@Kingofwolves999 I would rephrase it as;

1) AM's Plus Ultra punches are not 60x weaker than his Prime punches.

2) His durability is not 60x lower than his durability in his Prime.

3) The U.S.J. Nomu is intended to be comparable to All Might. Otherwise, why would they bother?

4) All Might was steadily growing weaker ever since he gave One For All to Deku, so there would be some drop between U.S.J. and Kamino. (Doesn't stop All Might from still going Plus Ultra since he managed to use the remainder of One For All to one-shot All For One).

5) The Near High-End that was present in the Star and Stripe fight isn't relevant to the multiplier.
Click to expand...
But how are you quantifying the gaps in power then?

Why is USJ All Might’s durability lower than his Prime All at all? You’re saying he’s weaker but your evidence is showing he should be the exact same does it not?

If Nomu is comparable to his Prime, stated to be the same strength, why are you claiming it is weaker at all?

He was experiencing drops in power well before that with his injury y, and even comments that he got weaker before the USJ when he had already given away the power. Does that not contradict your entire durability point if he was already getting massively weaker by then? And how much weaker did he get from USJ to Kamino at all?

The Nomu shows a direct comparison of 97% Shigaraki and All Might, it is incredibly necessary to the scaling, since it still shows that he is not on par with All Might despite your entire argument hinging on him being comparable to All Might, if not stronger due to the USJ Nomu.
 
The Nomu from the SnS fight is equal to Shigaraki, and has not been modified as the heroes didn’t see extra Quirks in the Nomu until the war.

That means that 97% Shigaraki would get torn in half if Mirko kicked him, as ridiculous as that is. Yet this same Mirko can do no damage to 100% Shigaraki when he gains his growth ability, showing he progresses at a massive rate that no one could have predicted.

There is a gap here where 97% Shigaraki can be one shot by Mirko and isn’t All Might level, but 100% Shigaraki can tank Mirko’s kicks and calls himself Prime All Might level. He simply got vastly stronger.
 
Damage3245 said:
And if you insist on bringing up that Near High-End... How do you account for the fact that Star and Stripe arc Shigaraki is purportedly at a comparable level of physical ability as Prime All Might according to Best Jeanist - but the Near High-End which is comparable to him in durability is supposed to be 60x weaker according to you?
Click to expand...
The Nomu from the SnS fight is equal to Shigaraki, and has not been modified as the heroes didn’t see extra Quirks in the Nomu until the war.

That means that 97% Shigaraki would get torn in half if Mirko kicked him, as ridiculous as that is. Yet this same Mirko can do no damage to 100% Shigaraki when he gains his growth ability, showing he progresses at a massive rate that no one could have predicted.

There is a gap here where 97% Shigaraki can be one shot by Mirko and isn’t All Might level, but 100% Shigaraki can tank Mirko’s kicks and calls himself Prime All Might level. He simply got vastly stronger.

Edit; posts got mixed up for some reason
 
@Kingofwolves999 And nobody ever points out in the final war arc that Shigaraki is vastly stronger than what they were expecting? Doesn't that seems a little odd if they based on their battle plan based on the data they had on him from his earlier battles, then Shigaraki shows up and he's over 60 times stronger than what they expected?

They already knew he was as fast as All Might in his prime... but they didn't think he was remotely comparable to All Might in any other way?

Also, please don't spam posts. Qaws just brought that up earlier.
 
Damage3245 said:
@Kingofwolves999 And nobody ever points out in the final war arc that Shigaraki is vastly stronger than what they were expecting? Doesn't that seems a little odd if they based on their battle plan based on the data they had on him from his earlier battles, then Shigaraki shows up and he's over 60 times stronger than what they expected?

Also, please don't spam posts. Qaws just brought that up earlier.
Click to expand...
I wasn’t trying to spam, for some reasons it sent in pieces and idk why

No one ever remarks that Mirko can kick in half Prime AM level combatants either, yet that is part of your argument. The heroes never even remark on his strength except for Hawks’ data report, every other statement from this is about his speed. They are so VASTLY unprepared for how strong Shigaraki is that Tamaki thinks his Plasma Cannon can do anything to him, that Bakugo is completely dumbfounded his strongest attack can only burn him but not move him at all.

The plan was for DEKU to be there to BEAT Shigaraki. They were NEVER supposed to be fighting Shigaraki.

Shigaraki got way stronger over that time between fights no matter how you try to paint it as a multiplier issue. He went from comparable to something that Mirko could kick in half to tanking her kicks like nothing. From not All Might level to Prime All Might level. From no rage fueled, adapting body to a mangled mess of fingers that can literally evolve him based on what he wants.

So yeah, Shigaraki went through a massive change that you can’t possibly claim can or can’t be 60x, which nulls your entire argument about it.
 
Damage3245 said:
We can't possibly claim it can be 60x?
Click to expand...
No, you cannot. Neither side can say it can or can’t be 60x, which leaves it dead in the water. There is no prerequisite for how strong he is.

He could be 5x stronger, 60x stronger, 3000x stronger, 1.5x stronger, it doesn’t matter. The only thing we can confirm is he went from getting one shot to no-selling attacks.

You are the one attempting to claim it can’t be a 60x difference which is purely from incredulity, regardless of if the 60x is valid or not.
 
Know what we can say though?

The difference between a Complete Shigaraki and Kamino AFO/AM is so massive he could one shot them and tank all their attacks with no difficulty.

Yet that same Kamino AM is supposedly wildly weaker than USJ AM, based on nothing that wouldn’t also make USJ AM massively weaker, which nullifies the entire point of USJ AM being comparable to his Prime in the first place.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
No, you cannot. Neither side can say it can or can’t be 60x, which leaves it dead in the water. There is no prerequisite for how strong he is.

He could be 5x stronger, 60x stronger, 3000x stronger, 1.5x stronger, it doesn’t matter. The only thing we can confirm is he went from getting one shot to no-selling attacks.

You are the one attempting to claim it can’t be a 60x difference which is purely from incredulity, regardless of if the 60x is valid or not.
Click to expand...

Okay... Then let's put that aside for now.

We still end up circling back to whether the statement from All Might is valid for a 60x multiplier, and my vote is still in disagreement with that.
 
Damage3245 said:
Okay... Then let's put that aside for now.

We still end up circling back to whether the statement from All Might is valid for a 60x multiplier, and my vote is still in disagreement with that.
Click to expand...
Alright, then let me reiterate my prior argument against your stance.

AM deals 1 damage though absorption to Nomu. Nomu has 300 health, so it takes 300 punches to knock Nomu out.

Prime AM can take Nomu out in 5 punches, so he must be dealing at least, if not more, than 60 damage through the absorption, so 60x what All Might can do.

I am willing to accept your refutation now that the main point of the thread is on track.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
Alright, then let me reiterate my prior argument against your stance.

AM deals 1 damage though absorption to Nomu. Nomu has 300 health, so it takes 300 punches to knock Nomu out.

Prime AM can take Nomu out in 5 punches, so he must be dealing at least, if not more, than 60 damage through the absorption, so 60x what All Might can do.

I am willing to accept your refutation now that the main point of the thread is on track.
Click to expand...

What exactly is "1 damage" here? And what does "300 health" mean exactly?
 
Damage3245 said:
What exactly is "1 damage" here? And what does "300 health" mean exactly?
Click to expand...
Your claim is that All Might is dealing damage to overwhelm Nomu’s absorption defense, ergo, he is dealing damage directly to the Nomu.

Per his own claim, he is dealing incredibly low damage in comparison to his Prime. It takes 300 punches, with the carry over actually harming Nomu, to knock Nomu unconscious.

He then compares this, saying his Prime would do the same thing he just did, but in only 5 punches.

“1 damage” is my representation for the “carry over damage” that All Might is dealing.

“Over 300 health” is the supposed amount of damage the Nomu takes before it is knocked unconscious. Thus, it takes 300 punches from Plus Ultra All Might to take him down.

“60 damage” is thus what is reasoned out of Prime All Might doing exactly what weakened All Might did, but in only 5 punches than 300.

Again; I’m open to any argument you have against this, as this was the main point in the first place that I am willing to change my opinion on.
 
I don’t think that logic necessarily would work either because this kinda logic was addressed before:

Qawsedf234 said:
Shock absorption has a lot to do with it, since that's the direct thing he's measuring against. A super basic example

  • AM punches with 100 energy
  • Nomu absorbs 99. So the damage is 1
  • Prime AM punches with 159 energy
  • Nomu absorbs 99. So the damage is 60
Click to expand...
 
Maitreya said:
I don’t think that logic necessarily would work either because this kinda logic was addressed before:
Click to expand...
By this explanation, Prime AM would still be a multiplier stronger than his Weakened Self, no? As this example isn’t noting the actual amount it takes to beat Nomu.

It takes 300 damage, in this example, to defeat Nomu.

So normal All Might would have to perform 30,000 energy worth of attacks to win.

In comparison, with only 5 punches, Weakene AM needs to deal 795 energy worth of attacks to win.

That results in him being around 37 times stronger rather than 60, but still a vast difference, and a multiplier still is being created.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
By this explanation, Prime AM would still be a multiplier stronger than his Weakened Self, no? As this example isn’t noting the actual amount it takes to beat Nomu.

It takes 300 damage, in this example, to defeat Nomu.

So normal All Might would have to perform 30,000 energy worth of attacks to win.

In comparison, with only 5 punches, Weakene AM needs to deal 795 energy worth of attacks to win.

That results in him being around 37 times stronger rather than 60, but still a vast difference, and a multiplier still is being created.
Click to expand...

Why are you dividing 30,000 by 795?
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
By this explanation, Prime AM would still be a multiplier stronger than his Weakened Self, no? As this example isn’t noting the actual amount it takes to beat Nomu.

It takes 300 damage, in this example, to defeat Nomu.

So normal All Might would have to perform 30,000 energy worth of attacks to win.

In comparison, with only 5 punches, Weakene AM needs to deal 795 energy worth of attacks to win.

That results in him being around 37 times stronger rather than 60, but still a vast difference, and a multiplier still is being created.
Click to expand...
No. To put it simply:

You believe the Nomu’s shock absorption work percentage wise, where it’ll absorb a certain percentage of All Might’s attack, when in fact it doesn’t have to operate that way and only absorbs a certain amount of force instead.

So back to the example, if Nomu only absorbs 99 force (not 99% of All Might’s, just the amount of force) and All Might throws 100 force, then All Might would only need to be about 1.6x stronger to be able to take out that Nomu in 5 blows. (Assuming he had 300 health like we said earlier).
 
Damage3245 said:
Why are you dividing 30,000 by 795?
Click to expand...
Maitreya said:
No. To put it simply:

You believe the Nomu’s shock absorption work percentage wise, where it’ll absorb a certain percentage of All Might’s attack, when in fact it doesn’t have to operate that way and only absorbs a certain amount of force instead.

So back to the example, if Nomu only absorbs 99 force (not 99% of All Might’s, just the amount of force) and All Might throws 100 force, then All Might would only need to be about 1.6x stronger to be able to take out that Nomu in 5 blows. (Assuming he had 300 health like we said earlier).
Click to expand...
This is a fair assessment.

I only then have the question of just how does All Might even know how much of his damage is carrying over in the first place?

As he is punching the Nomu, he must be sensing how much of his attacks are being absorbed. If he comes to the conclusion that only 5 hits are necessary to defeat Nomu in his Prime, is he judging that based on the total energy he put into all of his hits or only each individual hit? If the difference in the power that is getting through is so miniscule as to need 300 hits to finally win, how would he even count that amount out?

All Might isn’t the smartest guy, as shown with his brute force nature. So for him to be talking about the force absorbed per punch, and having the knowledge to see and quantify that he needs 300 punches to defeat someone, meaning he has to be able to acknowledge how much damage he’s doing that it even requires 300 hits in the first place… that just seems strange to me.
 
I think the problem is that what a lot of people here are doing is trying to see if you CAN explain the 300 and 5 punches without a 60× multiplier. When what we should be striving for is what's more likely, not if there's another possible way.
 
Also it just… seems like a very strange boast of his to say that he would only need 5 punches to beat Nomu if the actual strength difference isn’t high, supposedly only 1.6x.

Not to mention, the example proposed from Qaws can easily be manipulated to give differing amounts.

199 defense vs 200 and 259, for instance, only gives 1.3x multiplier.

Or 699 vs 700 and 759 only gives .92x multiplier so he’d actually be even weaker.

or 9 vs 10 and 19, for a 1.9x multiplier
 
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