• If you appreciate the VS Battles wiki, and can afford it, please make a donation to help keep our forum running, so we can continue to work hard to improve on the reliability of our wiki profile pages. If you want to be anonymous, don't enter your real name when you donate.

    Please click here if you are willing to help out.

Pre crisis supes justif removal

Status
Not open for further replies.
1,098
227
So now that we have a 2-C feat in his profile we should remove the clash one, it has been there ever since darkseid and the others were 2-B, but because "it was too high for supes", we pretended the feat was 2-C before adding the maldoor feat.

If a feat is too high for a character, it is a outlier, not a lower tier, that was one of the worst decisions of the wiki i have ever seen.

Every possible future = 2-B, not 2-C or 2-A (yeah another argument, that the multiverse was not infinite at the time, despite it being irrelevant)

So if supes is still only 2-C, remove the clash feat, because it is obviously 2-B, you can't make a 4-A feat be 4-B because "it is too high for the charcter at the time", you simply don't add it to the profile.

If there is another DC discussion going on, just close this until it is done, because this is a minuscule change.
 

DarkDragonMedeus

The Sword and Shield of AKM Sama
VS Battles
Sysop
17,728
7,998
I believe it comes from a clash against the 2-C version of Superboy Prime that destroyed 2 universes.
 

Antvasima

Maintenance worker
VS Battles
Bureaucrat
Sysop
102,929
21,948
I am neutral about it, but we need some input from knowledgeable members first.
 

Matthew_Schroeder

VS Battles
Retired
30,467
16,787
He has other Uni feats. Like Shazam beating Invincible man
Shazam lightly injures Invincible Man with his strongest punch and gets ragdolled. He only defeats Invincible Man after separating him from his power source. Superman's fight with Maaldor is very similar, with Superman being able to fight and damage Maaldor but ultimately being outclassed.
 
1,025
231
Shazam lightly injures Invincible Man with his strongest punch and gets ragdolled. He only defeats Invincible Man after separating him from his power source. Superman's fight with Maaldor is very similar, with Superman being able to fight and damage Maaldor but ultimately being outclassed.
Fighting and damaging is enough
 

DarkDragonMedeus

The Sword and Shield of AKM Sama
VS Battles
Sysop
17,728
7,998
Yeah, Silver Age Superman only had like one or two 2-C feats, and his most frequent showing is simply 3-A. In Pre-Crisis continuity DC Comics, the Big Bang was just seen as a big explosion rather than a Phase Transition/Space-Time Inflation event.

Also, simply damaging someone isn't normally enough to scale, character A needs to at least moderately damage character B while moderately taking hits to scale.
 
1,025
231
Yeah, Silver Age Superman only had like one or two 2-C feats, and his most frequent showing is simply 3-A. In Pre-Crisis continuity DC Comics, the Big Bang was just seen as a big explosion rather than a Phase Transition/Space-Time Inflation event.

Also, simply damaging someone isn't normally enough to scale, character A needs to at least moderately damage character B while moderately taking hits to scale.
I mean, that's why downscaling is a thing. Damaging means you still hurt the guy.
 

DarkDragonMedeus

The Sword and Shield of AKM Sama
VS Battles
Sysop
17,728
7,998
Downscaling based on premises that "Even chip damaging is still AP" or "Getting bodied hard but still surviving is still durability" are considered taboo practices for downscaling. Or even downscaling in general just creates too many issues around here. Also, I believe Matt had other plans for some Saint Seiya scaling and/or there was other details.
 
1,025
231
Downscaling based on premises that "Even chip damaging is still AP" or "Getting bodied hard but still surviving is still durability" are considered taboo practices for downscaling. Or even downscaling in general just creates too many issues around here. Also, I believe Matt had other plans for some Saint Seiya scaling and/or there was other details.
Well that's not the case here. Superman put up somewhat of a fight.
 
Can we do something like this "at least Low 2-C (Invicible Man scaling and Big Bang feat), possibly 2-C (Maaldor scaling)"? But we have a problem because we don't know if the Big Bang was potrayed as Low 2-C in the Pre-Crisis era.
 
1,098
227
All possible futures is countless 2-B though, definitely outlierish, even if superman is high end 2-C, which is why i'm suggesting removing the feat from the profile since he already has 2-C feats.

Infinite > countless > finite.
 
5,629
1,972
All possible futures is countless 2-B though, definitely outlierish, even if superman is high end 2-C, which is why i'm suggesting removing the feat from the profile since he already has 2-C feats.

Infinite > countless > finite.
It depends on the cosmology. All possible futures would be the hundreds of timelines Superman currently scales to and the 1,001 layers of existence.
 
15,440
2,093
All possible futures in DC is 2-A, so outlier. I would recommend just removing that feat enterily from the profile tbh, trying to limit it to 2-C when even its smallest interpretation is 2-B is definitely an issue.
 

DarkDragonMedeus

The Sword and Shield of AKM Sama
VS Battles
Sysop
17,728
7,998
DC Multiverse is infinite number of timelines yes, but it apparently has its own set of smaller Brane Multiverses; like the New 52 Universes for instance. But I agree "All possible Futures" being too vague in this case.

Actually, I'm not what should be done here.
 
5,486
941
Removing the justification from the profile. Because currently it's justifying a tier that doesn't exist.
 

Antvasima

Maintenance worker
VS Battles
Bureaucrat
Sysop
102,929
21,948
Can we do something like this "at least Low 2-C (Invicible Man scaling and Big Bang feat), possibly 2-C (Maaldor scaling)"? But we have a problem because we don't know if the Big Bang was potrayed as Low 2-C in the Pre-Crisis era.
Something like this combined with a footnote about the Jaxon feat being an outlier might be best.
 
1,025
231
Look, again, Superman still scales to Maaldor as he can consistently damage him. Making 2-B feat not an outlier at all. Honestly, you can't just call a feat outlier cause it's lower, there has to actually be an inconsistency for an outlier.
 
4,440
1,063
Again, you don't just call a feat an outlier cause it's higher unless it contradicts something.
Where in my comment did I say it was an outlier? Literally where did you get that from? I’m just questioning if you understand how big the difference in tiers is.
 
1,098
227
How the hell does a cosmology have only 1001 futures for all possibilities?

Also scans pls so we can add to the page.
 
1,098
227
Not how it works, all possible futures is countless without context, that's the case with pretty much every verse with possibility based multiverses.
 
3,399
340
Here, here and here. Hoping that this is 1) relevant here since timelines and dimensions are different in DC, at least in Post-Crisis and onwards and 2) was before the Jaxon feat.

Edit: This is probably irrelevant since dimensions and timelines ain't the same thing as said in one of the previous threads. Well at least it serves as supporting evidence for AM being 2-A if nothing else.
 
Last edited:
3,399
340
I think you misunderstood, I was just saying that Maldoor's 2-C feat could be casual and thus not an anti-feat and that he could thus scale to Superman rather than the other way around, that's all really.
 

Antvasima

Maintenance worker
VS Battles
Bureaucrat
Sysop
102,929
21,948
Okay. Anyway, here are working links to the above scans:




The last one (at least) is from a story years after the Jaxon feat though.

Regardless, if it had been established that there were infinite parallell universes before Superman clashed with Jaxon, it would be a 2-A feat and likely more of an outlier.
 

Antvasima

Maintenance worker
VS Battles
Bureaucrat
Sysop
102,929
21,948
Are those scans part of what we currently scale Doctor Fate from? They seem vague and unproven to me.
 
3,399
340
Yeah, they’re the main justification for 2-B atm I think.

Maybe call Firestorm here so he can maybe elaborate and check which years the infinite-sized multiverse scans I brought up are from.
 
5,486
941
My knowledge on DC isn't quite up to the task of supplying scans and what not. I could at help in interpretation of feats and tiers since I'm good at that at least.
 

Antvasima

Maintenance worker
VS Battles
Bureaucrat
Sysop
102,929
21,948
Yeah, DC is plagued with a lot of problems as far as higher tier justifications go. I don't even know why people are 1-A....
Agreed. I personally think that the DC Comics multiversal cosmology should only reach 1-B. Also, if I can downgrade Tenchi Muyo from tier 0 to 1-B for the sake of accuracy, the DC fans should preferably aim for similar priorities.

However, that is off-topic. Let's return to the main discussion please.
 
Agreed. I personally think that the DC Comics multiversal cosmology should only reach 1-B. Also, if I can downgrade Tenchi Muyo from tier 0 to 1-B for the sake of accuracy, the DC fans should preferably aim for similar priorities.

However, that is off-topic. Let's return to the main discussion please.
Why don't you change it to 1-B?
 

Antvasima

Maintenance worker
VS Battles
Bureaucrat
Sysop
102,929
21,948
I have a strange relationship to Marvel and DC. I love the old-school Jim Shooter and Post-Crisis eras, but dislike the current political propaganda stuff.

However, that is unrelated to that I find the statistics for DC and Marvel cosmic entities partially very unreliable.

I also still love One Piece, Dragon Ball, Tenchi Muyo, and Phineas & Ferb, among others, but am trying to be neutral and to strive for reliability in my handling of them.

Anyway, returning to the main topic, is some experienced member willing to update the Pre-Crisis Superman page, and would he still qualify for 2-C if we remove the Jaxon feat?
 
1,025
231
I have a strange relationship to Marvel and DC. I love the old-school Jim Shooter and Post-Crisis eras, but dislike the current political propaganda stuff.

However, that is unrelated to that I find the statistics for DC and Marvel cosmic entities partially very unreliable.

I also still love One Piece, Dragon Ball, Tenchi Muyo, and Phineas & Ferb, among others, but am trying to be neutral and to strive for reliability in my handling of them.

Anyway, returning to the main topic, is some experienced member willing to update the Pre-Crisis Superman page, and would he still qualify for 2-C if we remove the Jaxon feat?
Political propaganda? I'm sorry, what? You mean how Putin appeared in Doomsday Clock?
 

Antvasima

Maintenance worker
VS Battles
Bureaucrat
Sysop
102,929
21,948
Nope. I mean that the writers keep pushing politics into the stories in an extremely slanted/partisan/unbalanced manner, but it is best if we avoid any further discussion about that topic to avoid controversy.
 

Firestorm808

VS Battles
Thread Moderator
2,983
619
I would recommend separating the Silver and Bronze age keys for the profile down the line.

Can you unlock the profile?
 

Antvasima

Maintenance worker
VS Battles
Bureaucrat
Sysop
102,929
21,948
Yes, of course. Thank you for helping out. Should I unlock any other profile pages for you as well?
 

Firestorm808

VS Battles
Thread Moderator
2,983
619
How does the page and note look?

 

Antvasima

Maintenance worker
VS Battles
Bureaucrat
Sysop
102,929
21,948
It seems mostly fine, but I made a modification of "multiple timelines" to "likely infinite timelines" for the note about the Jaxon feat.

 

Antvasima

Maintenance worker
VS Battles
Bureaucrat
Sysop
102,929
21,948
So what should I rewrite it to? Dimensions as used back then usually referred to different types of universes.
 
3,399
340
Meh 1000 possibilities seems like a very weird compromise, usually when all possible futures are involved it's countless, don't even think there's a counter-example for this.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top