Power Stars Low 2-C Upgrade

[Antvasima]

@DarkDragonMedeus @GyroNutz @Dino_Ranger_Black

So what do you think that we should do here?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, I do not agree with what Ryukama is saying "About it's a feat for the reactor not the Grand Star". Actually it is a feat for the Grand Star outright since that's the ultimate reason for why the Reactor was Universal to begin with.

However, I do agree with Dino Ranger Black about the abundance of loopholes. It took an unknown about of Lumas to hold back the Universal feat and Dino is right that it's Tier 2 and above feats especially that group efforts should not be assumed divided linearly. Especially if the reason is "Dividing infinity by a billion is still infinity". I can also say it's a similar case to the Elder Gods from Mortal Kombat. They're Tier 6 individually but united makes them Low 2-C via driving away the One Being. Also, I have long retracted an assumption that "Lumas who turn into Power Stars are superior to ones who turn into Lumas". But we have on screen feats where Green Lumas are just as capable of going boom to form a galaxy as they are turning back into Lumas and they were Power Stars before being recruited to the Observatory. And we also see Black holes close and form Power Stars. So Galaxy level stuff is 100% solid for Lumas/Power Stars and what not. So if a Luma can boom and form a galaxy, I'm positive they can form a black hole with Galaxy level GBE to force it back together. So GyroNutz is correct that the galaxy level feats are concrete and solid.

So I think At least High 4-C, likely 3-C is fine for Lumas/Power Stars.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

So I think At least High 4-C, likely 3-C is fine for Lumas/Power Stars.

Can we maybe go back to what this thread was meant to be? About Mario 64? LuckyEmile sent her translations and explanations, which she basically got what the English translation said.

 

[DragonLord]

since I’m seeing the High 4-C bit again, I did want to ask about these parts of the Mario Galaxy Guide since they don’t really seem to describe it like the power star is powering it, though it does say that the Black Hole “transforms” into it

 

[liluzivert]

However, I do agree with Dino Ranger Black about the abundance of loopholes. It took an unknown about of Lumas to hold back the Universal feat and Dino is right that it's Tier 2 and above feats especially that group efforts should not be assumed divided linearly. Especially if the reason is "Dividing infinity by a billion is still infinity". I can also say it's a similar case to the Elder Gods from Mortal Kombat. They're Tier 6 individually but united makes them Low 2-C via driving away the One Being.

It... literally just says they use an artifact on their page. It's not even their strength together, it's just them using an artifact together

Kamidogu

The Kamidogu (from the Japanese word 神道具 meaning "divine tool") are magical items that contain the essence of the realm that they represent. A single Kamidogu does not contain or give any power at all, but when fused together they become a weapon resembling a ball of energy that has the ability...

vsbattles.fandom.com

The Elder Gods

The Elder Gods are the supreme deities of the Mortal Kombat universe. Where as other Gods only have jurisdiction over a single realm and typically represent an element, the Elder Gods are more ethereal and have power in all realms and universe. The vague faces of the Elder Gods seen in Mortal...

vsbattles.fandom.com

the false comparisons are starting to get ridiculous

 

[Antvasima]

Medeus makes sense to me. The Green Lanterns have a similar enormous power boost when working in a group.

 

[Starsprite53]

Can we please go back to the power stars topic

 

[TUHTPeaSkull12]

it's ok to talk about mario galaxy and all, but please let's leave that for a mario galaxy thread, right now we should talk about 64 stuff, especially since we already have the translations.

Let's talk about this, then talk about other things and avoid getting stuck in one thread.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

64 has been talked about for like the first few pages.

Galaxy relates to the Power Stars. Nowhere does it say "Mario 64" in the title, just a general upgrade. Why wouldn't we bring up other things to help support a general Power Star upgrade?

Plus I feel like all my points have been ignored. Absolutely little acknowledgment and I did all that work typing them out and finding shit. This goes even for 64 as the opposition hasn't even responded. DDM was talking about "oh Bowser would encompass reality over time" and that's what I aimed to try and explain in my last post which hasn't been given a response

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Yeah, I'd like to hear the arguments against what was presented for the Painting Worlds again.

Why can't bottomless and infinite underworld statements point to the dimensions of a place we know Bowser created?

People said "well Bowser was gonna expand the painting worlds to overtake reality over time," which is like, you know, I can see whete they're coming from, but wouldn't expanding ostensibly MSS-sized realms into sizes that can overlap and even cover an infinite 4-dimensional space kind of point to their power anyways? Like, not only does it require infinite speed if you do argue this, but wouldn't they already have to be 4-Dimensional and infinite in order to eventually take over the already 4D and infinite universe? Unless I'm just not understanding things right. But like, MSS realms would mean they are finite and eventually have to cross that barrier into infinite in order to accomplish this feat which would require infinite energy as far as I'm aware, and much like similar feats, happening over time doesn't detract from the overall tiering, because it's still that power that set it off, but it's just not an instantaneous feat. Look at the Void from Paper Mario or Bill Cipher's Rift.

Either way we argue it I'm not seeing how this isn't an upgrade in some way.

 

[liluzivert]

Well... I do want to move on to the power stars topic, but I want to say one final thing about the Lumas.


The Problem
I can't help but feel like people are confused on the Low 2-C Luma arguments, and that's understandable. Ryukama came in, derailed, and it lead to multiple comments coming out at the same time. So I want to clear the air a bit. I will be going over all of the arguments made against it, and why many of us think they should be Low 2-C.


Part of a Whole
While we are implying that Lumas would be the same tier as the Grand Star explosion, we are not saying that they are equal to that amount of energy. In fact, we are saying that the Lumas being separate would be a very small fraction of said energy. However, it would still be the same tier regardless.

Dividing Low 2-C as it stands as a higher infinite, would still warrant the same tier even if it was the smallest fraction. Similar to how multipliers on Low 2-C would make you stronger than baseline, fractions of Low 2-C would just make you less than the whole, but on the same tier. It would be like dividing a 3D tier into the smallest fraction, and still having that tier be 3D.


False Equivalences

False equivalence - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

According to Wikipedia, a False Equivalence is a logical fallacy in which an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistency. Colloquially, a false equivalence is often called "comparing apples and oranges."

I think the opposing side has been comparing group feats, without looking at the full context for each one.

Dino Ranger Black:

• Dino brought up Spritelings as a comparison to the Lumas, because they have been stated to seal the Black Jewel away together, but also have a varies tier due to not scaling separately to it. However, he skimmed over why they have a varies tier. "We Spritelings aren't that strong, so without a lot of us, I doubt we could rebuild your castle right. But..." This implies that without a lot of Spritelings working together, they struggle to be able to rebuild a building. Which implies that they are 3D with only a few. This is also stated on the Spritelings page as well.
• Attack Potency: Unknown individually (The Spritelings claim they need several of their own kind in order to do something lesser, such as rebuilding Wario's castle), Varies from Building level (Recreated Wario's castle) to Universe level+ with large groups (Overpowered and sealed the Black Jewel) With this, we have evidence to suggest that their strength increases massively when working together, as well as evidence that they are far weaker with only a few.
• He also brought up Chaos Emeralds, because they have a varies tier due to having multiple different showings in terms of tiers. The full context here was also ignored. "We care about Sonic, and he cares about us! That kind of heart... can create tremendous power!" The Chaos Emeralds are stated to vary in power depending on the positive emotions of the situation. This is also stated on Sonic's profile is well.
• Low Multiverse level (When fully charged with positive energy, he was able to defeat Solaris alongside Super Shadow and Super Silver.) This is evidence to suggest a canonical varies tier.

Ryukama:

• Ryu brought up the Spirit Bomb as an example of groups not scaling to feats, as he said the Humans would scale to something far higher than their shown capabilities. This is a misunderstanding as to how the Spirit Bomb/Genki Dama works.
• "Remember that the Spirit Bomb is a martial arts discipline that allows you to borrow energy from grass and trees, from people and animals, from inanimate objects and the atmosphere... And then to concentrate them and release them. If you can draw so much destructive power from a ball made on this small planet... ...Imagine what you can do with a Spirit Bomb formed on Earth! If you can also learn to tap into the astounding powers of the Sun... Well. Just be careful. Or you may destroy the very planet you're trying to protect!"
  — King Kai, in "Closer... Closer..." In other words, the Spirit Bomb takes life energy, and concentrates it into a force of destruction. The amount of energy something can produce does not give it more energy than something that can produce less. In other words, it depends on the amount of life in the surrounding area. Therefore, the people/objects do not scale because it is not their fighting power being taken. More evidence that suggests this group feat has no one scale aside from Goku, who is concentrating the energy.
• However, even if we went by that train of logic. The Z fighters have people who range from Large Star Level to Multi Solar System Level. The blast would have already been 4-A by just the Z fighters alone. Which would actually contradict the need of Humans, considering that Goku would've already had enough energy to blast Kid Buu

Dark Dragon Medeus:

• Medeus brought up the Elder Gods as a comparison to Lumas, because they're tier 6 by themselves, but tier 2 together. But it feels like he ignored most of the page.
• The page states this: Tier: Low 6-B | At least Low 6-B, Low 2-C with the Kamidogu. The Elder Gods used the Kamidogu to amp themselves to defeat the One Being. While their second key do say "Together" on their page, it is clearly referring to them being Low 6-B all together, and Low 2-C by being amped by the Kamidogu. In other words, the Elder Gods are not Low 2-C together, but they are that tier by using the Kamidogu. This is evidence that suggests that they are only stronger together by being amped.

In terms of the Luma feat, there is no evidence that they are only 3D by themselves. The cutscenes suggest that they stopped the collapse by working together. Because of this, we divide the energy made by the Grand Star by the number of Lumas. Similar to if multiple people came together to destroy a planet, we would divide the energy made to destroy the planet by the number of people.

In terms of 3D tiering, there are multiple tiers. Depending on the amount of people, it could easily be City Block Level, but both Planet Level and City Block Level are still 3D tiers. Because the energy output here is Universe Level+, it is a 4D tier. If we try to divide Low 2-C by a million, then we'd get a millionth of Low 2-C. The Lumas still worked together on the feat, thus they are no where near as strong as the Grand Star, but they still have the tier regardless.

Going back to the Planet example, we'd need evidence to suggest that the characters destroying the planet are 2D. Unless there's a clear example of those characters being 2D alone, then they should be 3D. And just because the Lumas don't have Low 2-C showings by themselves, it's ultimately not relevant. By just dividing the number of Lumas, we can calc the energy preformed by one Luma, and if that energy ends up being uncountable infinity, then they would still be at that level. Nothing implies that Galaxy level is their max showing, and even though they can do that, it doesn't mean they can't stop the universe from collapsing.


Bleach & Double Standards
I have mentioned this quite a few times already, but I feel like I didn't get the point across.

The opposition stated this:

A fraction does not equate to a whole all the time.

Dino is right that it's Tier 2 and above feats especially that group efforts should not be assumed divided linearly.

when the individuals lack any other feats it's best to just not immediately scale them to this collective feat. It's more just too vague and unquantifiable.

This is a problem. A huge one at that.


I am gonna bring up a verse that recently got downgraded due to the premise of dividing linearly. Enter: Bleach

Keep in mind that these reasons were agreed upon by most of the staff members.

This is what Kukui, the main person arguing against the tier, had to say about the Bleach Downgrades:

After all, if non god tiers are able to fight against and dispose of Yhwach’s and Reio’s Reiatsu when going against them, it becomes a fairly large anti feat against Reiatsu being used at Low 2-C levels when not used for sustenance due to these major inconsistencies. And these non god tiers includes a CHILD mind you.

First Evidence: Reio's Eyeball Creatures

When in the middle of devouring the Soul King, Yhwach releases torrents of Reio's reiatsu in the form of eyeball creatures and sends them to attack Shinigami:

Shinigami as high into Captain class and lower than assistant captain class were able to fight against these creatures made by Reio's power. Easily.

Sui-Feng receives no much as a scratch against an entire gang of them when using her Bankai, and Omaeda smashes through them with no trouble either.

Hisagi, Ikkaku and Yumichika can attack these creatures and not get wiped out by being so much as near them.

Byakuya literally blasts away an entire wave of these creatures with extreme ease using Senbon-Zakura. The strength of these creatures, who are supposed to be made by Low 2-C Reiatsu, are treated as blatant fodder compared to these guys, making the disadvantage in numbers and an attrition battle the only difficulty in wiping them all out. Which is why Aizen was used to dispose of them all at the same time in one shot.

Thats not where this ends either.

Second Evidence: Yhwach's Reiatsu Remnants

By the end of the Bleach manga, remnants of Yhwach's reiatsu appear in the Soul Society. Byakuya and other captains go to dispose of it:

But before they get the chance to, Ichigo's son Kazui Kurosaki destroys the last remnant of Yhwach's power that also appeared in The World of The Living, confirmed by Aizen:

This supposed Low 2-C Reiatsu is shown, one way or another, to be countered by people who have absolutely no business touching this tier of power, and aren't acknowledged to despite the upgrades. This leaves a great deal of skepticism on this argument, much less how scaling is supposed to be done in comparison. Is this Reiatsu simply not Low 2-C when used offensively? Are Low 2-C non-god tiers a thing now for fighting against Low 2-C power without so much as getting a scratch? Low 2-C Captains? Low 2-C Lieutenants? Or biggest of all, Low 2-C Kazui? How can they so much as even stand in the general presence of Low 2-C energy...without being Low 2-C themselves?

So how is this relevant to Lumas you may ask? Simple.

Low 2-C power will always continually be Low 2-C, no matter how much it is divided into smaller amounts. Dividing it in half? It’s Low 2-C. Divided by hundreds? It’s Low 2-C. Divided by billions of times? Sextillion amount of times? Power used at 0.0000000000000001%? It is still Low 2-C, period. The only differing factor here is that these lower amounts of Low 2-C power are unquantifiably lower the more it is divided up. But it’s not going to be so much weaker upon division that it drops out of the tier. This is the basics to how Low 2-C works and why downscaling from Low 2-C is very much a thing on this site to cement characters scaling to the tier, even if just lower to unknown extents.

This is not a whataboutism. This is pure double standards period.


If a fraction doesn't equate to the whole, meaning that fraction could be 3D and the whole can be 4D, then why are we also skeptical of Captains and Lieutenants scaling to fractions of Low 2-C energy? Group efforts shouldn't be divided linearly, but we lose our shit when Ichigo's baby boy destroys a divided piece of Reio, which in term is always Low 2-C? We say that Lumas working together to preform a Low 2-C feat means that dividing the feat makes it unquantifiable, yet Byakuya foderizing Reio remnants with his Senbon-Zakura is quantifyably Low 2-C?

I love Bleach to death man, and personally I think you could argue for both cases. But if you're gonna have this as your main counterargument to downgrade one of the sites most popular verses, than AT LEAST be consistent with other verses.

If you're still arguing that group feats CAN divide infinity with no evidence at this point, you are just being blatantly dishonest.


Mario 64

Now, I think the Luma feat ends up heavily supporting the idea of Power Stars being able to create universes. With the help of LuckyEmile, we can now confirm that Bowser did indeed create the painting worlds.

For starters, we know that the term "World" in Mario is consistent thanks to Blaze's points. With this, we can confirm that "World" in this case is more so likely to mean Universe rather than a pocket dimension. Also, Medeus mentioned that needing multiple Power Stars to extend the painting worlds would be evidence against Universal, however as we established before, one Power Star would downscale to all 120 stars. Thus meaning that this point actually makes one star a lower portion of Low 2-C.

So in terms of feats:

Planet Level - Lumas can become planets

Large Star Level - Power Stars can destroy the Hurry Scurry Galaxy Black Hole; Power Stars can create 12 other stars (citation needed)

Galaxy Level - Lumas can become entire galaxies.

Universe Level+ - Power Stars can make painting worlds that can encompass all of reality; Lumas can stop the fabric of the universe from collapsing

That leaves two High 4-C feats, and two Low 2-C feats. I am not sure why High 4-C isn't on any profile, but I'm assuming it's just not that consistent as a tier to begin with, compared to 4-A and Low 2-C.

With that in mind, Power Stars would have 2 Low 2-C feats, and thus the Star Children + Rosalina would get a flat Low 2-C rating. I also think High 4-C will probably need to be discussed, since it seems like a consistent showing as well.

 

[DragonLord]

I don’t really see how the Bleach comparison is noteworthy since well, Bleach isn’t Low 2-C on the wiki and it looks like the mods here agreed with the downgrade for from what I’m reading plenty of other reasons

 

[liluzivert]

I don’t really see how the Bleach comparison is noteworthy since well, Bleach isn’t Low 2-C on the wiki and it looks like the mods here agreed with the downgrade for from what I’m reading plenty of other reasons

Did you even read the post?

 

[DragonLord]

Did you even read the post?

From what I’m reading of this (I assume infamous) Bleach thread, the idea that he’s Low 2-C at all was disagreed with, I mean the person your mentioning (Kukui) isn’t even a Mod nor even on this thread

 

[liluzivert]

From what I’m reading of this (I assume infamous) Bleach thread, the idea that he’s Low 2-C at all was disagreed with, I mean the person your mentioning (Kukui) isn’t even a Mod nor even on this thread

Kukui is the main person who argued against Bleach, and if you actually read the thread, you'd know that many staff members agreed with Kukui's point about dividing infinity. Not to mention it also doesn't matter that he's not a staff member, the point is that he was the main one making points against the upgrade and many staff went with it. Please stop nitpicking.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

The Power Star stuff seems to have a lot of support for Tier 2 contextually and with translations.

The only "evidence" against it is shoddy at best. It doesn't matter if the feat happened over time or not, the feat is still Low 2-C for reasons already stated (the fact you'd need Low 2-C Power to even make a lower-dimensional space 4D and also expand to infinite size or they simply already were that size and "expanding" refers to crossing the dimensional gap or the simple fact "over time" doesn't automatically dismiss it as a feat of power due to similar feats from other verses happening over time being accepted; as long as the Power Star(s) set it off, it can still be scaled) and even if he used multiple it's STILL Low 2-C as Illuzivert pointed out.

But even if we don't agree to Low 2-C and people still want to insist on 4-A then Power Star users can be scaled to Infinite speed for these Stars somehow expanding these 4-A realms to cover an infinite plane, which requires that kind of speed.

 

[Antvasima]

Well... I do want to move on to the power stars topic, but I want to say one final thing about the Lumas.


The Problem
I can't help but feel like people are confused on the Low 2-C Luma arguments, and that's understandable. Ryukama came in, derailed, and it lead to multiple comments coming out at the same time. So I want to clear the air a bit. I will be going over all of the arguments made against it, and why many of us think they should be Low 2-C.


Part of a Whole
While we are implying that Lumas would be the same tier as the Grand Star explosion, we are not saying that they are equal to that amount of energy. In fact, we are saying that the Lumas being separate would be a very small fraction of said energy. However, it would still be the same tier regardless.

Dividing Low 2-C as it stands as a higher infinite, would still warrant the same tier even if it was the smallest fraction. Similar to how multipliers on Low 2-C would make you stronger than baseline, fractions of Low 2-C would just make you less than the whole, but on the same tier. It would be like dividing a 3D tier into the smallest fraction, and still having that tier be 3D.


False Equivalences

False equivalence - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

According to Wikipedia, a False Equivalence is a logical fallacy in which an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistency. Colloquially, a false equivalence is often called "comparing apples and oranges."

I think the opposing side has been comparing group feats, without looking at the full context for each one.

Dino Ranger Black:

• Dino brought up Spritelings as a comparison to the Lumas, because they have been stated to seal the Black Jewel away together, but also have a varies tier due to not scaling separately to it. However, he skimmed over why they have a varies tier. "We Spritelings aren't that strong, so without a lot of us, I doubt we could rebuild your castle right. But..." This implies that without a lot of Spritelings working together, they struggle to be able to rebuild a building. Which implies that they are 3D with only a few. This is also stated on the Spritelings page as well.
• Attack Potency: Unknown individually (The Spritelings claim they need several of their own kind in order to do something lesser, such as rebuilding Wario's castle), Varies from Building level (Recreated Wario's castle) to Universe level+ with large groups (Overpowered and sealed the Black Jewel) With this, we have evidence to suggest that their strength increases massively when working together, as well as evidence that they are far weaker with only a few.
• He also brought up Chaos Emeralds, because they have a varies tier due to having multiple different showings in terms of tiers. The full context here was also ignored. "We care about Sonic, and he cares about us! That kind of heart... can create tremendous power!" The Chaos Emeralds are stated to vary in power depending on the positive emotions of the situation. This is also stated on Sonic's profile is well.
• Low Multiverse level (When fully charged with positive energy, he was able to defeat Solaris alongside Super Shadow and Super Silver.) This is evidence to suggest a canonical varies tier.

Ryukama:

• Ryu brought up the Spirit Bomb as an example of groups not scaling to feats, as he said the Humans would scale to something far higher than their shown capabilities. This is a misunderstanding as to how the Spirit Bomb/Genki Dama works.
• "Remember that the Spirit Bomb is a martial arts discipline that allows you to borrow energy from grass and trees, from people and animals, from inanimate objects and the atmosphere... And then to concentrate them and release them. If you can draw so much destructive power from a ball made on this small planet... ...Imagine what you can do with a Spirit Bomb formed on Earth! If you can also learn to tap into the astounding powers of the Sun... Well. Just be careful. Or you may destroy the very planet you're trying to protect!"
  — King Kai, in "Closer... Closer..." In other words, the Spirit Bomb takes life energy, and concentrates it into a force of destruction. The amount of energy something can produce does not give it more energy than something that can produce less. In other words, it depends on the amount of life in the surrounding area. Therefore, the people/objects do not scale because it is not their fighting power being taken. More evidence that suggests this group feat has no one scale aside from Goku, who is concentrating the energy.
• However, even if we went by that train of logic. The Z fighters have people who range from Large Star Level to Multi Solar System Level. The blast would have already been 4-A by just the Z fighters alone. Which would actually contradict the need of Humans, considering that Goku would've already had enough energy to blast Kid Buu

Dark Dragon Medeus:

• Medeus brought up the Elder Gods as a comparison to Lumas, because they're tier 6 by themselves, but tier 2 together. But it feels like he ignored most of the page.
• The page states this: Tier: Low 6-B | At least Low 6-B, Low 2-C with the Kamidogu. The Elder Gods used the Kamidogu to amp themselves to defeat the One Being. While their second key do say "Together" on their page, it is clearly referring to them being Low 6-B all together, and Low 2-C by being amped by the Kamidogu. In other words, the Elder Gods are not Low 2-C together, but they are that tier by using the Kamidogu. This is evidence that suggests that they are only stronger together by being amped.

In terms of the Luma feat, there is no evidence that they are only 3D by themselves. The cutscenes suggest that they stopped the collapse by working together. Because of this, we divide the energy made by the Grand Star by the number of Lumas. Similar to if multiple people came together to destroy a planet, we would divide the energy made to destroy the planet by the number of people.

In terms of 3D tiering, there are multiple tiers. Depending on the amount of people, it could easily be City Block Level, but both Planet Level and City Block Level are still 3D tiers. Because the energy output here is Universe Level+, it is a 4D tier. If we try to divide Low 2-C by a million, then we'd get a millionth of Low 2-C. The Lumas still worked together on the feat, thus they are no where near as strong as the Grand Star, but they still have the tier regardless.

Going back to the Planet example, we'd need evidence to suggest that the characters destroying the planet are 2D. Unless there's a clear example of those characters being 2D alone, then they should be 3D. And just because the Lumas don't have Low 2-C showings by themselves, it's ultimately not relevant. By just dividing the number of Lumas, we can calc the energy preformed by one Luma, and if that energy ends up being uncountable infinity, then they would still be at that level. Nothing implies that Galaxy level is their max showing, and even though they can do that, it doesn't mean they can't stop the universe from collapsing.


Bleach & Double Standards
I have mentioned this quite a few times already, but I feel like I didn't get the point across.

The opposition stated this:



This is a problem. A huge one at that.


I am gonna bring up a verse that recently got downgraded due to the premise of dividing linearly. Enter: Bleach

Keep in mind that these reasons were agreed upon by most of the staff members.

This is what Kukui, the main person arguing against the tier, had to say about the Bleach Downgrades:



So how is this relevant to Lumas you may ask? Simple.


This is not a whataboutism. This is pure double standards period.


If a fraction doesn't equate to the whole, meaning that fraction could be 3D and the whole can be 4D, then why are we also skeptical of Captains and Lieutenants scaling to fractions of Low 2-C energy? Group efforts shouldn't be divided linearly, but we lose our shit when Ichigo's baby boy destroys a divided piece of Reio, which in term is always Low 2-C? We say that Lumas working together to preform a Low 2-C feat means that dividing the feat makes it unquantifiable, yet Byakuya foderizing Reio remnants with his Senbon-Zakura is quantifyably Low 2-C?

I love Bleach to death man, and personally I think you could argue for both cases. But if you're gonna have this as your main counterargument to downgrade one of the sites most popular verses, than AT LEAST be consistent with other verses.

If you're still arguing that group feats CAN divide infinity with no evidence at this point, you are just being blatantly dishonest.


Mario 64

Now, I think the Luma feat ends up heavily supporting the idea of Power Stars being able to create universes. With the help of LuckyEmile, we can now confirm that Bowser did indeed create the painting worlds.

For starters, we know that the term "World" in Mario is consistent thanks to Blaze's points. With this, we can confirm that "World" in this case is more so likely to mean Universe rather than a pocket dimension. Also, Medeus mentioned that needing multiple Power Stars to extend the painting worlds would be evidence against Universal, however as we established before, one Power Star would downscale to all 120 stars. Thus meaning that this point actually makes one star a lower portion of Low 2-C.

So in terms of feats:

Planet Level - Lumas can become planets

Large Star Level - Power Stars can destroy the Hurry Scurry Galaxy Black Hole; Power Stars can create 12 other stars (citation needed)

Galaxy Level - Lumas can become entire galaxies.

Universe Level+ - Power Stars can make painting worlds that can encompass all of reality; Lumas can stop the fabric of the universe from collapsing

That leaves two High 4-C feats, and two Low 2-C feats. I am not sure why High 4-C isn't on any profile, but I'm assuming it's just not that consistent as a tier to begin with, compared to 4-A and Low 2-C.

With that in mind, Power Stars would have 2 Low 2-C feats, and thus the Star Children + Rosalina would get a flat Low 2-C rating. I also think High 4-C will probably need to be discussed, since it seems like a consistent showing as well.

@DarkDragonMedeus @Dino_Ranger_Black @GyroNutz @AKM sama

What do you think about this?

I am personally uneasy with scaling a group feat to individuals, as vast power boosts in this manner are a rather common occurrence in fiction, and it clearly seems like the Mario developers intended individual Lumas to be 3-C.

In addition, most fictions do not make a difference between Low 2-C and 3-A, as we do, so that makes such a feat even more uncertain.

Was a universal timeline even involved to warrant a Low 2-C rating in the first place?

 

[AKM sama]

I am personally uneasy with scaling a group feat to individuals, as vast power boosts in this manner are a rather common occurrence in fiction, and it clearly seems like the Mario developers intended individual Lumas to be 3-C.

A group feat does not scale to individuals. It is one of the basics of power scaling. Like you said, a vast power boost is very common in such occurrences. DB humans don't scale to the attack that destroyed the body of a 3-A character. Beerus and Champa don't scale to the feat they can pull off together.

 

[Lou_change]

If I may doesn't every example used to counter it have the individuals involved have clear anti feats lumas transforming into planets are never stated or really even implied to be acting at their limit that said all lumas in game that become galaxies also somehow have power stars and some lumas which makes me feel like pointing out this isn't super good as main evidence for low 2-C but given the super Mario 64 feats I am neutral towards the upgrade.

 

[Starsprite53]

A group feat does not scale to individuals. It is one of the basics of power scaling. Like you said, a vast power boost is very common in such occurrences. DB humans don't scale to the attack that destroyed the body of a 3-A character. Beerus and Champa don't scale to the feat they can pull off together.

I mean, it's a downscale, just scaling to the feat but into a lower extent (but this thread ain't even about lumas so this discussion shouldn't even be a thing)

 

[Starsprite53]

So can we PLEASE get back to the power stars topic

 

[Antvasima]

Aren't power stars mature forms of Lumas?

 

[Idk556570]

So can we PLEASE get back to the power stars topic

power stars are grown up lumas if lumas are a certain tier then power stars should scale to that certain tier

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, I'm still not buying the group effort stuff despite the lengthy posts. Also both Mario 64 and Galaxy are on topic since Power Stars are the same lore wise.

 

[Starsprite53]

power stars are grown up lumas if lumas are a certain tier then power stars should scale to that certain tier.

That's not an excuse to left the 64 points behind, espacially since they're the main focus of the thread, after we discuss the 64, we may discuss lumas

 

[AKM sama]

I mean, it's a downscale, just scaling to the feat but into a lower extent

I don't understand what you mean by "scaling to the feat but to a lower extent". They don't individually scale to the feat if it is a group effort. If they have something else as evidence that makes them scale to something else, then that's a different topic.

 

[Starsprite53]

If they have something else as evidence that makes them scale to something else, then that's a different topic.

I mean, that's why i demanded to discuss the power stars first (espacially since they relate to lumas)

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Yeah, I'm still not buying the group effort stuff despite the lengthy posts. Also both Mario 64 and Galaxy are on topic since Power Stars are the same lore wise.

But we're trying to upgrade Power Stars by using 64, not from Galaxy.

 

[liluzivert]

@DarkDragonMedeus @Dino_Ranger_Black @GyroNutz @AKM sama

What do you think about this?

I am personally uneasy with scaling a group feat to individuals, as vast power boosts in this manner are a rather common occurrence in fiction, and it clearly seems like the Mario developers intended individual Lumas to be 3-C.

In addition, most fictions do not make a difference between Low 2-C and 3-A, as we do, so that makes such a feat even more uncertain.

Was a universal timeline even involved to warrant a Low 2-C rating in the first place?

Yes Ant, it is called downscaling. You cannot divide infinity into a 3D tier. It is gonna be Low 2-C regardless. And yes, the Grand Star was gonna destroy the very fabric of the universe

Low 2-C power will always continually be Low 2-C, no matter how much it is divided into smaller amounts. Dividing it in half? It’s Low 2-C. Divided by hundreds? It’s Low 2-C. Divided by billions of times? Sextillion amount of times? Power used at 0.0000000000000001%? It is still Low 2-C, period. The only differing factor here is that these lower amounts of Low 2-C power are unquantifiably lower the more it is divided up. But it’s not going to be so much weaker upon division that it drops out of the tier. This is the basics to how Low 2-C works and why downscaling from Low 2-C is very much a thing on this site to cement characters scaling to the tier, even if just lower to unknown extents.

You say it makes it uncertain, but you are certain that reio remnants are 4D? There is no difference here between both the Reio and Lumas. Reio gets split into fractions and still downscales yet Lumas are a "group feat" and thus are somehow infinitely less than the feat they did together. Not to mention group feats have reasons and evidence to have infinite power boosts, as shown in my long text above.

But honestly it feels like people didn't even read what I said at all. And I'm not a fan of this sites heavy use of disbelief instead of reason. If you don't want characters reaching a tier then its much better to just change the rules rather than bend them in a CRT because you don't believe it.

Anyway, can we please talk about Power Stars and the paintings? Because Lumas are just supporting evidence.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes Ant, it is called downscaling. You cannot divide infinity into a 3D tier. It is gonna be Low 2-C regardless. And yes, the Grand Star was gonna destroy the very fabric of the universe

Dividing Universe level and Universe level+ into two tiers is a convention that most of fiction does not subscribe to though. We likely need to fix that at some point.

Anyway, I definitely do not think that we should downscale from group feats of any kind, as drastic power-ups via collaboration is standard fictional plot-induced stupidity/a narrative convention, and given that other staff mostly agree, we are most likely not going to accept it.

 

[Lou_change]

Anyway, I definitely do not think that we should downscale from group feats of any kind, as drastic power-ups via collaboration is standard fictional plot-induced stupidity/a narrative convention

Ok first give literally a singular piece of evidence that shows this is the case here because tropes don't govern over power scaling otherwise our jobs would be both simpler and more complicated. What for example there are several stories that have the big good and big bad destroy everything if they fight and this is meant to show the power of the big bad, are you saying we can't ever use that Lumas can logical scale to other feats that are low 2-C and this has nothing implying that they are growing exponentially more powerful by suicidal flying into a black hole.

 

[Starsprite53]

Can
We
Focus
On
Mario
64
Power stars
PLEASE?

 

[Antvasima]

Ok first give literally a singular piece of evidence that shows this is the case here because tropes don't govern over power scaling otherwise our jobs would be both simpler and more complicated. What for example there are several stories that have the big good and big bad destroy everything if they fight and this is meant to show the power of the big bad, are you saying we can't ever use that Lumas can logical scale to other feats that are low 2-C and this has nothing implying that they are growing exponentially more powerful by suicidal flying into a black hole.

The issue is that individual Lumas only have feats of a 3-C scale, which is a massively drastic difference, so I think that plot convenience is the most likely conclusion.

 

[Antvasima]

Can
We
Focus
On
Mario
64
Power stars
PLEASE?

If you summarise the arguments for it, yes, I think so.

 

[liluzivert]

Ok first give literally a singular piece of evidence that shows this is the case here because tropes don't govern over power scaling otherwise our jobs would be both simpler and more complicated. What for example there are several stories that have the big good and big bad destroy everything if they fight and this is meant to show the power of the big bad, are you saying we can't ever use that Lumas can logical scale to other feats that are low 2-C and this has nothing implying that they are growing exponentially more powerful by suicidal flying into a black hole.

Just stop bro... they aren't gonna accept it and it's supporting evidence anyway. We can talk about this AFTER we talk about Mario 64, because if that's valid for Uni+, then Lumas would be extra evidence supporting it.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Can
We
Focus
On
Mario
64
Power stars
PLEASE?

This. This is NOT a Galaxy thread, the feat does NOT involve Lumas, nor does the scaling. This is about Mario 64 only, this is a massive derailment. No idea why Ryukama had to go ahead and bring Galaxy up. Can we please focus on Mario 64 only?

 

[TUHTPeaSkull12]

I agree for now let's concentrate on 64 and then see what we have to see from galaxy or other games.

 

[Antvasima]

If you summarise the arguments for it, yes, I think so.

Can somebody summarise the arguments please? I have lost track at this point.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Okay. So I'll try to say it again.

Bowser created the painting worlds in 64, the Japanese translations are the same as English, so we're done with all of that.

The term "world" in 64 has stated to be "all of reality", "real world". And they will use the term "world" for Bowser's paintings in both the same context and sentence, they'll also refer to it as "another world" in comparison to Mario's. The paintings have also been described as an "infinite underworld" and "bottomless" on two different occasions.

So in short. Their definition of "world" in this game means universe (all of reality, real world), and Bowser's paintings are also referred to as another world. They're described as bottomless/infinite underworlds.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Can somebody summarise the arguments please? I have lost track at this point.

Could you notify the staff that gave input on the earlier topic (@DarkDragonMedeus, @Dino_Ranger_Black)