Power Stars Low 2-C Upgrade

[Starsprite53]

Can we focus on 64 and power stars please?

 

[GyroNutz]

Pretty sure guides and all and even King Bob-Omb state that Power Stars pretty much can res a boss for a rematch.

Meant more like fighting Bowser again after canonically defeating him.

 

[Ryukama]

@GyroNutz

"Saying that this is shapeshifting is disingenuous"

That is essentially what it is though. They shifted their shape from that of a luma to that of a planet, comet or galaxy.

"I assume that you don't have any instances of a Luma turning back from a galaxy, which is more proof that this isn't shapeshifting."

So shapeshifters can't change back? Also what's funny is that in a previous thread people argued that the fact that lumas could change back is proof it's not a shapeshifting and now you're insisting the opposite.

But fine if you don't want to call it shapeshifting, it is still a specialized ability that Mario and Bowser do not posses. Regardless of the method, they cannot turn their bodies into galaxies. Therefore we don't give them this ability just because someone else has it.

Plus no one can ever find an actual statement of "Power Stars are superior to the lumas that turn into galaxies" to begin with. I 100%'d the game a second time just to find nothing.

"Being burnt ("badly hurting himself is an exaggeration")"

He's hurt badly enough for 3 of Mario's hits to outright defeat him when normally nothing Mario can do can even phase him. Also again when you want to claim that Bowser's entire body can absorb all of the energy indefinitely, then him being unable to even touch the energy for less than a second without hurting himself absolutely goes against that premise. Regardless if you want to chalk it up to heat weakness or whatever, Bowser cannot handle all of this energy at once inside his body indefinitely like is being claimed. It's especially bad if you want to claim he actually tanked the universal destruction at the end of the game, which would require vastly more "heat resistance" to pull off.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

The point being Lumas have these "less powerful" things in large sums within their stomachs, so naturally one can assume they definitely have enough to equate to a Grand Star, especially since the intro definitely doesn't seem to imply it takes hundreds.

 

[Ryukama]

Also worth noting is that whenever Bowser gets empowered Power Stars, even if we're assuming he absorbed the entirety of their energy, that's an amped Bowser. It does not scale to Base Bowser or Base Mario. Yet often times I see this try to be scaled to their base forms which leads to circular scaling of "Mario is weaker than Mario"

 

[DragonLord]

From what I recall, this happens with no other Galaxy, even Hungry Luma’s that make Planets for a mission, so this Hungry Luma coming back is unique

I think the hungry luma may come back in future missions if you go into the Yoshi egg planet but I’m not sure, it’s been a while since I played Mario Galaxy

After watching some videos, it seems that the hungry luma doesn’t directly come back in future missions, however the Planet they made does seem to disappear in missions that would take place after feeding the hungry luma

so take that as you will

 

[DaReaperMan]

Also worth noting is that whenever Bowser gets empowered Power Stars, even if we're assuming he absorbed the entirety of their energy, that's an amped Bowser. It does not scale to Base Bowser or Base Mario. Yet often times I see this try to be scaled to their base forms which leads to circular scaling of "Mario is weaker than Mario"

Bowser was not amped when he did his Low 2-C durability feats.

 

[Ryukama]

Bowser was not amped when he did his Low 2-C durability feats.

Bowser has no Low 2-C durability feats in Super Mario Galaxy. If he does in some other games I haven't played then sure but my entire point is about the feats in this game being used on the profile.

 

[GyroNutz]

That is essentially what it is though. They shifted their shape from that of a luma to that of a planet, comet or galaxy.

So shapeshifter can't change back? Also what's funny is that in a previous thread people argued that the fact that some lumas could change back is proof it's not a shapeshifting and now you're insisting the opposite.

It's not though. It's at best a transformation. I've explained why Lumas becoming galaxies is not only not shapeshifting, but is a feat that requires 3-C energy.

Second part is circular reasoning. I asked for proof that Lumas can turn back from 'being a galaxy' to see if they are shapeshifter, and your proof that they can change back is that they're a shapeshifter? DragonLord's example is the closest thing there is to that, and it only happens once + is subject to game mechanics.

But fine if you don't want to call it shapeshifting, it is still a specialized ability that Mario and Bowser do not posses. Regardless of the method, they cannot turn their bodies into galaxies. Therefore we don't give them this ability just because someone else has it.

The latter would be ridiculous yes. But it's not some sort of specialized hax, but rather a quantifiable feat that requires 3-C energy. Mario and Bowser can scale to that 3-C yield without being able to turn into galaxies.

Plus no one can ever find an actual statement of "Power Stars are superior to the lumas that turn into galaxies" to begin with. I 100%'d the game a second time just to find nothing.

They're implied to be comparable by Rosalina. Lumas can turn into planets, comets, galaxies, but it's considered a rare occurence when a luma turns into a Power Star.

Ignoring the Grand Star stuff because it's derailing the thread.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Ryu, Bowser's heat resistance is consistently inconsistent so it's not even a good argument anyways. Plus, you wanted to argue developer's intent before, and this could simply be Nintendo wanting Bowser to look silly literally burning his ass and running away. If anything, this "anti-feat" is more of a gag than anything. He also can recover pretty quickly if Mario doesn't smack him anyways, which you conveniently seem to ignore. Hell, the sun he fell into was artificially created likely by the Grand Stars IIRC but he wasn't exactly melted by that, and while weakened too. This is literally irrelevant to the thread anyways.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Bowser has no Low 2-C durability feats in Super Mario Galaxy. If he does in some other games I haven't played then sure but my entire point is about the feats in this game being used on the profile.

Which is derailing, make another thread. As it stands right now Bowser tanked Low 2-C Energy and face tanked a blast that destroyed the fabric of the universe, Lumas lack very many feats. That is why we refer to gameplay. Grand stars on the other hand only have scaling and a Low 2-C feat.

 

[Ryukama]

They're implied to be comparable by Rosalina. Lumas can turn into planets, comets, galaxies, but it's considered a rare occurence when a luma turns into a Power Star.

Nope this absolutely is never the case. All Rosalina says is "Some can turn into planets, some can turn into comets and a few become Power Stars"

This does not at all mean "Power Stars are superior to the lumas that turn into galaxies." All this suggests is that Lumas turning into Power Stars happens less often. But it happening less often does not mean "Power Stars are superior to galaxies." Even worse is that galaxy is never mentioned in this one statement you cling on to. Even if we're interpreting what Rosalina means as saying "these Power Stars are superior to the things I mentioned" that only means they're superior to planets and comets. (Not to mention that it is actually arguable that lumas that turn into galaxies are more rare than Power Stars since there are a lot more Power Stars than lumas turned into galaxies in the game, but we don't even need to go there)

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Ryu, you must have ignored my previous post where I explained that transforming = releasing energy and that the implication and showings that galaxies and planets are more common transformations means they likely require less energy to transform into.

This would also make sense within the context of the game itself as the Lumas you find could just be fed countless Star Bits to become Power Stars if they didn't require way more energy than the other transformations.

So yeah, 3-C Power Stars is fine imo

 

[DragonLord]

Also not a Galaxy but I think the Cyan Luma’s (Called Lumalee) also seem to come back after turning into Mushrooms and 1-Ups... that or Mario is eating a Luma to death... gruesome

 

[Ryukama]

Ryu, you must have ignored my previous post where I explained that transforming = releasing energy and that the implication and showings that galaxies and planets are more common transformations means they likely require less energy to transform into.

This would also make sense within the context of the game itself as the Lumas you find could just be fed countless Star Bits to become Power Stars if they didn't require way more energy than the other transformations.

1. The lumas are "releasing energy" through a specialized technique that Mario and Bowser do not possess. Not even every luma possesses this technique.

2. The sheer fact alone that Rosalina implied lumas turning into Power Stars is a rarer occurrence than planets or comets (galaxies never even being mentioned) does not suddenly mean Power Stars have higher AP that galaxy transformations or whatever.

3. It's arguable that lumas turning into galaxies may actually be rarer than lumas turning into galaxies. We see Power Stars more frequently than lumas turning into galaxies. Plus Rosalina never says lumas turning into Power Stars is rarer than lumas turning into galaxies. Just comets and planets. Not that "rarity of occurrence" even matters when we're just talking about AP alone.

 

[liluzivert]

"But the Spirit Bomb analogy doesn't work because Z Fighters contributed not just civilians.

Alright then let's just say the Z Fighters contributed almost all of the Spirit Bomb, and that the civilians only contributed to 0.000000000000000000001% of the Spirit Bomb (which I don't know why it was even such a big deal to gather their energy if they contributed essentially nothing but I digress). Then let's assume there were a trillion civilians, so we divide this 0.000000000000000000001% by a trillion. This still leads to individual, untrained civilians being Small Town Level, which is absurd.

This is why you don't divide individually from a collective feat. Yes obviously infinity divided by a million is infinity. The point is that the collective does not divide at all. It's exponentially greater than the sum of its parts.

"But why should we assume that this collective feat is similar to Dragon Ball or Digimon?"

Because individual lumas have zero feats or even statements that are Universe Level or even within an order of magnitude as such. Because of this we cannot assume they scale to this collective feat. At most it is simply an unquantifiable feat.

Z fighters with their energy combined would already be 4-A in its own, especially since Goku's energy also went into it. Literally most of the Z fighters range from Star Level to Solar system level.

But ok, I can't help but feel like you are still missing a HUGE amount of lore within the DB verse. Spirit Energy does not automatically mean the people sending it are as strong as it, otherwise Goku would've not been able to create a Spirit Bomb in the Frieza fight which is literally implied to be able to destroy planets. Spirit Energy just takes the life force from an object, like trees or grass, and then converts it into energy. Are we going to say trees in dragon ball are Town level? I don't think so. The point is that truthfully, no one scales. It's just the power of life and the technique Goku uses that makes it powerful. Therefore, it is not the equivalent of their power output, or ki.

And don't misconstruct this either, because this really means that the Spirit Bomb has an actual justification as to why people and inanimate objects don't scale. With Lumas, there is no energy conversion but them coming together to stop the Universe from collapsing. Therefore, this comparison is nothing more but a false equivalence, just like the Chaos Emeralds. We are back to square one again, and you guys don't have any evidence to suggest they function that way.

And also, we don't need other feats because it is literally shown in game what they do, they are stopping the collapse of the universe. And we know that dividing it just gives us the same tier. But hey, I'm down to have my boi Ichigo be Low 2-C again if this doesn't get accepted.

Lastly, this still doesn't explain why 120 finite stars create space time continuums that encompass reality according to DDM, and again we still cannot divide Low 2-C.

 

[GyroNutz]

This does not at all mean "Power Stars are superior to the lumas that turn into galaxies." All this suggests is that Lumas turning into Power Stars happens less often, which is obviously the case since there aren't hundreds billions of Power Stars. But it happening less often does not mean "Power Stars are superior to galaxies." Even worse is that galaxy is never mentioned in this one statement you cling on to. Even if we're interpreting what Rosalina means as saying "these Power Stars are superior to the things I mentioned" that only means they're superior to planets and comets. (Not to mention that it is actually arguable that lumas that turn into galaxies are more rare than Power Stars since there are a lot more Power Stars than lumas turned into galaxies in the game, but we don't even need to go there)

The latter isn't true at all - the ending of Super Mario Galaxy proves this, when Rosalina says they will grow up to become galaxies one day, and Mario welcomed all the new galaxies. Yet even with this knowledge, it's stated that only a few lumas become Power Stars compared to anything else. Around 240 power stars appear by the end counting Green Stars, which pales in comparison to the galaxies created. For the former, it's a Luma's destiny to transform into things like comets, planets, stars etc as stated in the storybook. What limitations would a process that requires such an explosive amount of energy have? Why would only a few lumas end up as power stars rather than galaxies or the like? The easiest explanation I have is that the former requires more energy.

 

[DragonLord]

and Mario welcomed all the new galaxies.

Not to be pedantic but Mario only actually welcomed one Galaxy

“Welcome, Welcome new Galaxy”

 

[Ryukama]

@liluzivert You are proving my entire point. The energy coming together results in something that is exponentially greater than the sum of its parts. Just like the lumas are combining their power to do this feat. Sure it's not explicitly stated that the lumas combined power works similarly to Dragon Ball or Digimon, but when the individuals lack any other feats it's best to just not immediately scale them to this collective feat. It's more just too vague and unquantifiable.

@GyroNutz Again, even if we're saying it happens less frequently its rarity does not automatically mean Power Stars are superior. That is a big jump and assumption if there are no other feats or statements suggesting that. I'd rather see an individual Power Star actually do anything that is 3-C (or even a flat out statement) as opposed to "Rosalina implies Power Stars are rarer which could imply they have higher AP." That is not solid enough for a rating in my opinion,

 

[liluzivert]

@liluzivert You are proving my entire point. The energy coming together results in something that is exponentially greater than the sum of its parts. Just like the lumas are combining their power to do this feat. Sure it's not explicitly stated that the lumas combined power works similarly to Dragon Ball or Digimon, but when the individuals lack any other feats it's best to just not immediately scale them to this collective feat. It's more just too vague and unquantifiable.

Of course you misread my argument...

And don't misconstruct this either, because this really means that the Spirit Bomb has an actual justification as to why people and inanimate objects don't scale. With Lumas, there is no energy conversion but them coming together to stop the Universe from collapsing. Therefore, this comparison is nothing more but a false equivalence, just like the Chaos Emeralds. We are back to square one again, and you guys don't have any evidence to suggest they function that way.

Spirit Energy =/= ki or power output. It is spirit energy being converted into power output.

And no, we really don't need other feats at all. Just because one turns into a Galaxy does not mean that it's their max output. That is an assumption and a baseless one at that.

 

[Ryukama]

But anyways I do not have the time to constantly go back and forth on this all day long. This is the final thing I am saying before unfollowing the thread.

1. I agree with @Dino_Ranger_Black's assessment that individual Power Stars and lumas do not have any Tier 2 feats. And it is flawed to scale an individual luma to a feat that only a collective amount with their combined accomplish. It's not as simple as "Oh well take the feat and divide that by how many people did it" because it does not always work this way in fiction.

2. I also disagree with scaling others to a specific type of luma's special ability to transform into a galaxy when they themselves do not have this ability. And no lumas turning into Power Stars maybe being implied to be a rarer occurrence than lumas turning into a galaxy is not solid enough to give 3-C scaling. Feats and actual statements saying "Power Stars are superior in power to galaxy lumas" would be better than these vague implications.

3. I do not think Bowser should be Tier 2 just because he was in possession of Grand Stars, and Grand Stars can be used to fuel the Galaxy Reactor, and the Galaxy Reactor collapsed into a black hole, and the black hole destroyed the universe. That is not Bowser's own power. But that can be for another thread.

This is just my input on the matter. If Dino, @Antvasima and the rest of the staff disagree with me then so be it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I am not going to be angry at people for having a different opinion than mine. I need to get ready for work now.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Also, I'm genuinely curious...

What's the proof that Grand Stars are immensely superior to Power Stars? If anything, Galaxy treats them as almost one in the same, and Rosalina even implies they're part of her family of star people, who we know are Lumas.

When she says they can become Power Stars, we should also acknowledge that Grand Stars were and are frequently including amongst the general group of Power Stars.

If anything I think Grand Stars are considered comparable to Power Stars and treated as the same general family, and there's lot of context and proof to show for it.

So Lumas probably CAN become Grand Stars too, since Grand Stars are part of the star people family and were directly lumped in with Power Stars multiple times, with the Grand Star even being called fellow "companions" and "family" by Lumas and Rosalina.

This would also explain why bosses empowered by both Grand Stars and Power Stars exist even beyond the Daredevil Comets, why Mario beating Grand Star Bowser in base as well as Power Star-amped people would make sense, and why the number for Power Stars and Grand Stars collected amount to a comparable amount of power, being a "1" for a single Grand Star and an added "1" for just a single Power Star, with Rosie evem calling the energy from that 1 Grand Star weak and saying you needed the other Power Stars.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

What's the proof that Grand Stars are immensely superior to Power Stars?

1. Better feats

2.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

That's a single guide statement compared to all the shit in my post from the game itself.

Besides, unleashing more energy doesn't mean the Power Stars still can't be in a comparable tier, or defeats my point that they're in the same family and Lumas could also be becoming Grand Stars too. Rosalina and the Lumas calling Grand Stars part of their "family" even supports this.

There's some pretty direct showings that say that Grand Stars are considered Power Stars, so when Rosie says "a few can even become Power Stars" this would also include the possibility of Grand Stars in there. Coupled with them calling Grand Stars "family" and a "companion" and that the japanense translation said a Grand Star would die, implying it's alive and sentient, I think it's reasonable to assume Grand Stars are also transformed Lumas.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Hell, my post earlier even showed they frequently eat the stuff that can turn into Grand Stars which would also be supporting evidence they can become them.

 

[DragonLord]

the japanense translation said a Grand Star would die, implying it's alive and sentient,

Well first off I think you’d probably need to have the translation evaluated, second well, just saying something can die doesn’t automatically mean it’s sentient, I can say “the party died” or “the chats dead” or “the Earth is dying” or “the phone is dead” etc that doesn’t make those things sentient beings

 

[Foxthefox1000]

It's used as supporting evidence with the fact they call them "family" and "a companion". I seriously hate when people only attack the supporting evidence by itself as if that's the main point.

Context from what I'm seeing generally seems to treat the Grand Stars as part of the Power Stars, and context also is looking like it supports Lumas becoming Grand Stars too, as they're part of the Power Star grouping.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Given the Power Star argument in this thread, the fact that Lumas do have a Low 2-C feat, the fact Lumas can probably become the Low 2-C Grand. Stars which has a ton of proof and context backing it, the fact that Power Stars being in the same group as and being comparable to Grand Stars but just lesser forms has context in favor of it would all be support for Low 2-C Power Stars.

 

[Ari64-SP]

I feel like this just supports a “possibly/likely” rating no? I mean, considering that we see power stars be compared to Lumas, which are varing in what they make and how powerful they are, a possibly/likely rating works pretty well.
“At least 4-A, possibly/likely Low 2-C”

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Rosie again referring to a Grand Star as a Power Star in the original japanese version

It's no one-time occurrence. They are clearly meant to be treated similarly. So in our ratings for the Lumas I propose we should already have a "possibly Low 2-C" even without the black hole feat simply due to the fact Rosalina could easily have meant the Lumas can also become Grand Stars as shown by all the evidence I've given.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I mean, Grand Stars being considered variations of Power Stars doesn’t necessarily mean they’re comparable or equal, like how the Earth Dragon Balls aren’t remotely comparable to the 2-C Super Dragon Balls.

Not exactly opposed to your conclusion, but that’s just a weak argument.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Except if we accepted the arguments in this thread they would be in a comparable tier anyways. And the games even show that Grand Stars aren't THAT far off from Power Stars from the counter, the number of Power Stars needed to travel to places (all Grand Stars collected doesn't automatically restore full power to the Observatory and you NEED a set number of Power Stars), and tbe fact that Mario in base can still defeat bosses empowered by Grand Stars and Power Stars. If Power Stars were massively inferior and not comparable they wouldn't even have to be bosses within the same game and it's also a common complaint against scaling Mario to Grand Stars. But if they're comparable it's no problem.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Besides, Power Stars being comparable to Grand Stars was just the lesser of my points. I just wanted everyone to know Rosalina saying they can become Power Stars can easily include Grand Stars, which would make Lumas a possibly Tier 2 (supporting their Low 2-C feat as well as the fact they eat what can become Grand Stars in large quantities already) and thus support Tier 2 Power Stars anyways since Lumas are < Power Stars

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

I'll have my final say on the matter because I rather not be bothered by this lost cause of a thread again: The Lumas and Power Stars are not Low 2-C. It's incredibly flawed to use the logic of whatever you divide infinity will still leave you with infinity when this is a clear case of the sum not equating to it's whole. Just because the amount of Lumas involved with this feat might not range in the millions, doesn't mean we should blindly ignore the fact that it is a group feat with no context of whether they are capable of doing this on their own. The heavily flawed "Oh but they didn't say that they can't!" is moot when the opposite holds true. We go with what's presented, not our headcanon or heart's desires to hype them up. People can use the different verse card as much as they wish with the examples me and Ryu have provided but it doesn't negate the fact that the situation is ultimately the same, has too much leniency in comparison, and that it's is pure unadulterated wank to assume a single Luma or Power Star can be Universal just because one of the many is involved with a feat that only one Grand Star could do. I don't know why people are trying so hard to flaunt this verse by always going for the absolute highball while having the nerve to be condescending to anyone who merely disagrees. I also do not agree with the Power Stars being more powerful than Lumas. It was never stated whatsoever.

 

[liluzivert]

I'll have my final say on the matter because I rather not be bothered by this lost cause of a thread again: The Lumas and Power Stars are not Low 2-C. It's incredibly flawed to use the logic of whatever you divide infinity will still leave you with infinity when this is a clear case of the sum not equating to it's whole. Just because the amount of Lumas involved with this feat might not range in the millions, doesn't mean we should blindly ignore the fact that it is a group feat with no context of whether they are capable of doing this on their own. The heavily flawed "Oh but they didn't say that they can't!" is moot when the opposite holds true. We go with what's presented, not our headcanon or heart's desires to hype them up. People can use the different verse card as much as they wish with the examples me and Ryu have provided but it doesn't negate the fact that the situation is ultimately the same, has too much leniency in comparison, and that it's is pure unadulterated wank to assume a single Luma or Power Star can be Universal just because one of the many is involved with a feat that only one Grand Star could do. I don't know why people are trying so hard to flaunt this verse by always going for the absolute highball while having the nerve to be condescending to anyone who merely disagrees.

What? You making an assumption that Lumas work like group feats with no evidence IS your own headcanon. You make a claim you need to prove it. It goes both ways. You don't just prevent an upgrade without evidence. If it takes millions of Lumas to stop the universe collapsing, and we don't have proof that they have special power buffs when working together, then we just use math. Uncountable infinity divided by millions is still uncountable infinity, and while it may be a fraction of other Low 2-Cs, it's still that tier regardless. By saying they function like other group feats, you are making an assumption. Calling everything "wank" but then not providing evidence to suggest that the arguments are false is a clear sign of sticking stuff to the wall to prevent any sort of upgrade, even if the upgrade is accurate to the rules. Just like that Earthbound thread where people bend the rules of dividing infinity because they don't want Ness to scale, even though it was right after they downgraded Bleach for not being able to divide infinity. Weaponizing the term "wank" to build up this false sense of panic to stop the "wankers" isn't gonna make this site more accurate. I'm just gonna be real with you.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I only provided all of this because I figured we definitely have enough for a possibly rating. DDM even agreed to a possibly before with just the painting world argument, I just wanted to show more evidence to support that.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

I come back and see a shit show. I'm not going to touch the Luma argument. I'm not touching the Grand Star argument either, that's done and done. If you disagree with it, make a CRT, we had a debate with these exact same arguments.

I don't want to read all of whatever was that, what's the opposing argument about Low 2-C Power Stars from 64?

 

[Foxthefox1000]

The opposing arguments are the same. "Too vague," "No direct feats," "nothing supports Power Stars being Low 2-C consistently," "the worlds could still be smaller than Uni+ and still only 4-A"

Ryu didn't even touch the 64 argument at all. The only one who has is DRB.

We know Bowser did in fact create them, the only issues are the fact that only a couple staff have agreed and one staff member is vehemently against it.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Okay so what I hear is there aren't any. Ryu really derailed it, sheesh.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Yeah, I'd like to hear the arguments against what was presented for the Painting Worlds again.

Why can't bottomless and infinite underworld statements point to the dimensions of a place we know Bowser created?

People said "well Bowser was gonna expand the painting worlds to overtake reality over time," which is like, you know, I can see whete they're coming from, but wouldn't expanding ostensibly MSS-sized realms into sizes that can overlap and even cover an infinite 4-dimensional space kind of point to their power anyways? Like, not only does it require infinite speed if you do argue this, but wouldn't they already have to be 4-Dimensional and infinite in order to eventually take over the already 4D and infinite universe? Unless I'm just not understanding things right. But like, MSS realms would mean they are finite and eventually have to cross that barrier into infinite in order to accomplish this feat which would require infinite energy as far as I'm aware, and much like similar feats, happening over time doesn't detract from the overall tiering, because it's still that power that set it off, but it's just not an instantaneous feat. Look at the Void from Paper Mario or Bill Cipher's Rift.

Either way we argue it I'm not seeing how this isn't an upgrade in some way.