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Potential Moro and Zamasu (manga) upgrade
- Thread starter LeSupremeKing1
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Ngl tho, I did google translate it and it says the entire galaxy will be blown awayOh god
Hasty12345
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Should I put them in the official translations thread?
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Of course. Most trusted translation source after all
Hasty12345
Username Only- 5,176
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I’ll do it when I get home from work, otherwise anyone feel free to post them there in my place.
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Exactly. Most trusted source
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- #51
he wasn't nuking uni 6, he was just nuking the dragon balls within uni 7
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Oh okay
Hasty12345
Username Only- 5,176
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Hasty12345
Username Only- 5,176
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Given Yuri's response here:
I disagree with the upgrade, I don't think there's any merit for the claims "galaxy and universe are interchangeable". "Saving the universe" in this context is not inherently AP related, one could even describe Cell and Frieza as "threats to the universe" in a similar fashion (In Z at the time of their arcs) and it would be a technically true statement.
That being said, what was the basis for the verse being downgraded from 3-A?
I disagree with the upgrade, I don't think there's any merit for the claims "galaxy and universe are interchangeable". "Saving the universe" in this context is not inherently AP related, one could even describe Cell and Frieza as "threats to the universe" in a similar fashion (In Z at the time of their arcs) and it would be a technically true statement.
That being said, what was the basis for the verse being downgraded from 3-A?
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BoG feat not having a stated timeframe
Hasty12345
Username Only- 5,176
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That's...... So lame....
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- #57
Yeah I provided evidence and like dozens of scans showing the two words being used, so I’d like to know why you would think that.
Ive read Yuri’s response and I’m aware that galaxy and universe are usually words defined differently, I think I’ve made that clear in the OP. What I’m saying is that in dragon ball that doesn’t seem to be the case in like the 6+ instances I showed. And we do know definitions are extremely subjective, ones definition for a word may not be shared with someone else’s, and this is reflected in dictionaries across the world.
And again, all points to a hidden second definition of galaxy.
It would make no sense for the Grand Supreme kai to say this kid was saving the universe when all that is threatened is the galaxy, unless the universe was threatened. And considering in this context destruction was involved, I do think it would be AP related.
Frieza could seeing as he ruled the universe and it was made quite clear that his reign of terror spanned across the entire universe, for cell I don’t really recall anything or anyone saying that “Gohan saved the universe”.
but I’ll put you in the disagree section
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- #59
wait what anti evidence?
edit: i mean what counter evidence was presented
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"Saving the universe" being 3-A is obviously as dumb as "they said galaxy but meant universe!".
The first one is common stuff for big bad guys, especially in DB when this is said in Buu or Frieza arc for instance.
This kind of statement never was enough for AP, and hopefully never will be.
The second is just sheer headcanon. It is written galaxy both in translation and raw, and there shouldn't be any debate on that.
Unless you somehow imply that Toyotaro has the level of understanding of a primary school pupil, then there's no way a grown man mistake the two here.
We know they make a difference between Galaxy and universe since you have several sentences when they talk about the two (with Jaco's famous thing about universe being full of galaxies).
And since imo the best analysis are the one that use less assumptions: it just means there's at least one Super Dragon Ball in their galaxy, and it being destroyed means no big Shenron.
Hard disagree here.
The first one is common stuff for big bad guys, especially in DB when this is said in Buu or Frieza arc for instance.
This kind of statement never was enough for AP, and hopefully never will be.
The second is just sheer headcanon. It is written galaxy both in translation and raw, and there shouldn't be any debate on that.
Unless you somehow imply that Toyotaro has the level of understanding of a primary school pupil, then there's no way a grown man mistake the two here.
We know they make a difference between Galaxy and universe since you have several sentences when they talk about the two (with Jaco's famous thing about universe being full of galaxies).
And since imo the best analysis are the one that use less assumptions: it just means there's at least one Super Dragon Ball in their galaxy, and it being destroyed means no big Shenron.
Hard disagree here.
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They don't know that, they don't know that there's a dragon ball in the galaxy yet they are saying one is in danger. Mind you there are seven of these objects scattered across not one but two universes, for one to be in the milky way is so improbable. For moro to be a genuine threat to the dragon balls he'd have to be at least a multi galaxy to universe buster.
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Dbs manga is already 3-B from loooong time ago.
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If the context behind him saying "you saved the universe" was that somebody with the energy of an angel was about to explode, and Uub's ki stopped the explosion, then I would think I the explosion was possibly a threat to the universe. And if there is difference between galaxy and universe, then he would say "you saved the galaxy", and not “you saved the universe”. Thats the equivalent of saying "you saved the planet" after some guy stops a nuke. Unless the nuke could possibly threaten the destruction of the planet, it would make no sense for one to say "you saved the planet".
And I personally don't find words having second definitions dumb at all. Especially in a fictional setting. Especially since definitions are extremely subjective, which is why there are literally thousands of dictionaries in the world, I would have no problem with dragon ball characters having a second definition to the word. And that is made perfectly clear from the dozens of scans I sent, which, judging from your reply you only intend on addressing two or three.
It was stated multiple times that frieza ruled over and had a reign of terror across the universe, so if they said Goku saved the universe by beating him, that would make complete and total sense.
Such a statement to my knowledge, was never made for Buu, but it would, again, make sense given that Buu was destroying the universe over time.
Yet if Moro is exploding, and then someone stopped it and they said "Hey you saved the universe" and we know that uni and galaxy are at times used interchangeably, given the context I would think that explosion in some way, was a threat to the universe.
Neither of these examples are really a defeater to my argument.
I never argued against it being written galaxy.
And no I'm not arguing that Toyotaro, at all, is incompetent, all I'm saying is that it seems that in dragon ball, the two words are used as if they mean the same thing, implying a second definition. Which I, again, don't find hard to believe, because its fiction, they can make words mean anything they want to, especially given their subjective nature.
I'm not arguing Galaxy always means universe, again, I'm arguing there is an implied second definition where the two are interchangeable within dragon ball.
Krillin has no way of knowing that. He doesn't even have access to the super dragon ball radar. And that would be an extremely unlikely assumption to make, especially given there should be billions of galaxies within the universe.. I'm suprised you would hop to that rather improbable conclusion.
K ill put you in the disagree section.
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Post in thread 'Official Translations Requests Thread (New forum)'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/official-translations-requests-thread-new-forum.107531/post-4292634
It seems that that galaxies in this context apparently means all galaxies.
https://vsbattles.com/threads/official-translations-requests-thread-new-forum.107531/post-4292634
It seems that that galaxies in this context apparently means all galaxies.
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It's not exactly uncommon for characters to say something to the effect of "I won't just destroy [thing], I will destroy [bigger thing] too!" I have no actual examples off the top of my head, but think of it this way: if someone said "I'm going to destroy this country... this planet!", would you think that "country" and "planet" are supposed to be interchangeable here? Because I wouldn't, not without explicit evidence of said country matching the verse's consideration of a planet - which doesn't need to be "the country is 5-B", mind you.
Merus asked Goku to protect both "this galaxy" and "this universe", so I wouldn't take this as concrete evidence of them referring to the same thing.
shrugs The second thing is figurative language (which you probably already know anyway), but beyond that, I don't have much to say here.
My dude, Merus outright states that the Galactic Patrol is helpless when it comes to universal matters, and that they focus on valiantly protecting the galaxy, hence them being called the Galactic Patrol. I see a pretty clear distinction here.
Can't say much here either. The most I can do to push back is suggest the idea that if someone can disrupt peace in the Milky Way galaxy, that could lead to the entire universe being disturbed, too. After all, aren't there only 20-something planets with life in all of Universe 7?
Because the galaxy presumably holds most of Universe 7's life, as stated before. Also, Moro mentions Goku and co. roaming the universe, which they did in fact do - Merus took Goku to a far-off planet to train him, while Vegeta made a trip to Planet Yardrat.
Krillin didn't want to risk even the possibility of one of the Super Dragon Balls getting blown up and thus rendering the entire set unusable. Even if he had no way of knowing, not wanting to bank your planet's survival on chance is pretty reasonable, I'd say.
(Also, if we took this at face value, people might try to claim that "the galaxy" includes both U6 and U7, and Moro's thing is therefore a 2-C feat. Just wanted to put that out there because I'm sure you can see what's wrong with that... right?)
Refer to my response two quotes up.
No one doubts "cosmos" meaning "universe." What I do doubt is Zamasu refering to the universe as "this whole galaxy". To go off of the example I gave at the start, if someone said "Screw this planet! I'll wipe you out along with the entire country!", my assumption would be either that the villain plans to annihilate the country in order to cause panic throughout the world or that they plan to annihilate the country followed by the rest of the planet later on, not that the country literally is the planet.
Funnily enough, I actually wanted to try to upgrade Moro to 3-A based on something like this. However, Herms admits that Toyotaro is pretty inconsistent with whether he meant to say "every galaxy" or just "the entire galaxy", and after discussing it when someone else tried their hand at 3-A Moro, I came to the conclusion that the latter is the more likely interpretation. I can go look for the relevant threads if you want.
I really, really don't think we should ever assume that "galaxy" in Dragon Ball means "Universe 7" by default. Especially since, as you yourself acknowledge, words can mean a bunch of different things. The quadrants of the living world have supposedly been called "galaxies", for instance.
With all of that being said, I disagree with this upgrade.
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I don't think thats analogous, in your example, you use ellipsis (triple dots) which indicates omission, which is not present in the scan I sent. A better example would be "I'm going to destroy this country. This planet!" which implies you are defining the word country/elucidating the prior sentence, which is why I included it there.
He asks goku specifically to protect it all, makes no sense for him to interpret "all" as galaxy, the smaller construct.
He says they struggle to defend the universe, not because they lack in number, but because the criminals who are willing to break these laws are usually much stronger than the people within the galactic patrol. And nowhere does it say they focus on protecting the galaxy, idk where you got that from, he simply switches off from saying how they struggle protecting the universe to struggling to protect the galaxy. And either way its directly stated the galactic patrol protects the universe.
..what? I mean no disrespect, but that makes no sense to me. If its stated the universe is in trouble or threatened, then I would think the universe would be in trouble, I don't think most of life living in one galaxy is at all a defeater to that statement.
Goku at the time was in a completely different dimension training, and all vegeta was doing was learning how to control his ki better, neither were causing any type of trouble. Its pretty clear by "discord in the universe" they are referring to Moro.
Krillin wasn't at all saying it like it was a possibility, he was saying it as if it was a fact/common knowledge if the galaxy blew up, the super dragon balls in the universe would be gone. And it doesn't make sense at all that he would just think "hey 1 galaxy out of probably the billions in the universe is blowing up, which means probably the super dragon balls which exist in both universe 6 and 7 would probably be gone too!". I find that a completely bizarre, fallacious line of thought which doesn't seem like Krillin at all, I would just apply occam's razor, and go with the more likely conclusion, that more than a singular galaxy was being destroyed.
You think he would get nervous about an infinitesimal chance that the Earth might be destroyed, to the point he would treat it as though its a fact if the galaxy is destroyed the super dragon balls are automatically gone?
We know that destroying one dragon ball means the entire set is useless, and we also know atleast one exists in universe 7, therefore Moro being 2-c isn't even required for the "permanent earth destruction" scenario to happen.
Actually, it can be interpreted as "these galaxies" or "every galaxy"
I have never ever seen someone say "Screw this planet, I'll wipe you out along with the entire country" and that sentence would make no sense unless A the country has some sort of insanely high importance to the planet, to the point where the entire planet will be negatively affected by the destruction of the planet, or B certain someone is using them as if they mean the same thing. And the rest of your interpretation of that example, I feel like isn't analogous because for one Zamasu isn't trying to cause panic throughout the universe, he just said that because he was frustrated and wanted to be done with everything. We can't even argue that he was going to destroy the universe later, because all Zamasu's goal was at the time was preserve the planets, get rid of the mortals. Hence the "Zero mortals plan" and why goku Black wasn't going around planet by planet similar to kid buu and just destroying everything.
I believe you, I don't believe you are being dishonest at all, however, Herms does make it clear, from what i've seen that despite him not knowing exactly what Toyotaro is intending here, and from the context, that it can mean "all galaxies" or "galaxies". And given how unlikely it would be to mean just one singular galaxy, and given the many scans supporting "every galaxy" as opposed to the very little backing up "just one", I would personally agree with his take on this.
I don't think I was assuming at all, contrary to that I gave tons of evidence supporting this.
But sure I'll put you in the disagree section
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I don't think japanese language have singular or plural form in the language, it's depends on context or form of sentence.
Rabbit2002
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I would agree with Moro 3A (at least his Earth-chan Form), the background makes it clear that even the super dragon ball scattered throughout universe 6 and 7 would destroyed, not only that what Daikaioshin meant Moro in that state is a threat to the Universe unlike in the case of Frieza, cell, buu,... Because at that time Moro could no longer control his power or state due to overload by angel's power, sooner or later he will die from his self-destructive explosion. What can really pose a threat to the universe can only be it, he can't run around Universe and spam ki blast, that's not his purposeat all and he can't do that either due to current situation
Regarding zamasu, I am neutral or opposed
Regarding zamasu, I am neutral or opposed
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bump
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Neutral, but leaning towards disagreeing. I don't think this kind of stuff is enough for a 3A rating. And as for the "all galaxies stuff", all I will say is that if it can be interpreted in both ways, it might be better to look at the english translation, seeing as they seem to confirm which interpretation Toyotaro is going for. So, I'm leaning towards disagreeing. A lot of the stuff just seems like basic things that any major villain in DB can or has done like Frieza or Cell. Nothing tier 3 about either of those characters
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I also found an interesting Blog in CV about the galaxies thing so it might be helpful and it appears that statements like "destroying the galaxy " was a mistranslation and it was actually referring to all the galaxies instead
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