Jibz
He/Him- 3,111
- 2,505
I've been sitting on this debunk ever since this thread in which after a convo with ThreeMagi (original dude who upscaled the verse to tier 0) we concluded (at least I hope, it seemed like he agreed with me) that the verse's scaling did not hold up. To which i decided that this wasn't my problem, but I've come to realise this is it. There's nothing left. More manifold stories where we can glean scaling probably isnt coming. A fact made ever so more evident in this interview, when i realised. Jesus Christ this is 20 years old. Why would he continue this...., so here i am.
In Journey to Amasia (a story from Phase Space), Woodin cardinals are present inside the verse as physical material. Which is a part of the cosmology the Downstreamers create.
With the assumption that AJTM is canon to the Manifoldverse, due to Manifold: Phase Space being canon to Manifold as a collection of short stories. With there being direct correlation between AJTM and another Phase Space novel Dante's Dream (A)
Furthermore, they mention a "Dante's Inferno pocket universe" in Manifold Space, with "Dante's inferno" being the cosmological description of the place where Woodin Cardinals reside. (B)
And unsure if this is a justification here, but i might aswell bring it up here as i know it's going to be brought up in the comments: Malenfant mentions parallel universes deep in the phase space, with the phase space a set of all conceivable states of that system. "The wider phase space of the universe" (C)
Now lets label these arguments, A, B, and C.
Argument A
This is the misconcieved notion that the entirety of Phase Space is canon to the Manifoldverse, where this notion comes from is probably a mixture of all the connections in Phase Space to the Manifoldverse, and word of mouth. This notion is entirely wrong.
"But this is the 4th book in the Manifold series"
This is probably due to a wikipedia article that titled it as such. This is true (technically), but the book explicitly states that THIS is not JUST a Manifold book. It's more then that. It literally says this as soon as you open the book in the form of STORIES FROM THE MANIFOLD AND ELSEWHERE. So it clearly isn't just Manifold short stories, but an ensemble of stories.
Furthermore, Baxter states what IS canon to the manifoldverse in his Afterword in Phase Space, peep the fact Dante's Dreams isn't there and the fact he states:
"Of the stories set in the multiple universes of the Manifold" --> Which's description shows that there are other stories that aren't set in the Manifold universes (the way the statement was written corroborated this, and the fact there's no reason to mention that IF it was all canon to Manifold). Obviously im not stating that stories directly mentioned there is the only stories canon to Manifold, but it does paint a picture.
Argument B
Let myself back in time answer this:
Argument C
Alr, lets start with
parallel universes deep in the phase space
--> This is likely referring to the alternate versions of Malenfant as present throughout the novels. In Time after the True Vacuum collapse, Malenfant is told by a Downstreamer that they'd be "changed" if they survive, which is seen in Manifold:Space and Manifold:Origin in which Malenfant is present though a parallel universe version of him (Versions of us and those we love --> Reference to Emma who dies in Manifold time, but is present in the other novels as a different version) in which various things happen which is why it says "destinies".
a set of all conceivable states of that system. "The wider phase space of the universe"
--> This is stated in the same monologue as the "deep in the phase space" comment and therefore it is likely its referring to the same thing, the parallel universes that spawned after the True Vacuum collapse.
Now that's i've debunked the arguments for why it SHOULD scale, lets go over some reasons why it shouldn't:
Dante's Dream is canonical to A journey to Amasia, which is in turn supposed to be canon to Manifold, right? Wrong. It is in fact canon to the Proxima duology (Proxima, Ultima and Obelisk). With Proxima Duology's cosmology being finite, haven't read the series, but it's referred to as such in the blurbs (Source: Goodreads) :
Mankind’s future in this galaxy could be all but infinite --> Proxima
In PROXIMA we discovered ancient alien artifacts on the planet of Per Ardua - hatches that allowed us to step across light years of space as if we were stepping into another room. The universe opened up to us. Now in ULTIMA the consequences of this new freedom make themselves felt. And we discover that there are minds in the universe that are billions of years old and they have a plan for us. For some of us. But as we learn the true nature of the universe we also discover that we have countless pasts all meeting in this present and that our future is terrifyingly finite. --> Ultima
Note: There are mentions of the concept of infinity in the duology, but none that i've seen that show the cosmology to be infinite, so until I see some im running on the presumption that it is in fact finite (as its kinda the entire plot of the series)
Which would:
a) contradict the Manifold cosmology (which is infinite regardless of the inaccuracies in its scaling so far)
b) Mean its canon to a completely different series
And thus AJTM is not canon to Manifold
Furthermore, Dante's Dream was written in August 1998 in Asimov's magazine, and is canon to A Journey To Amasia, a book written in Obelisk (which is canon to Proxima a completely different book series --> we will get into this later) whilst the first Manifold book (Manifold Time) was written in 1999. With Manifold:Time being seen as the opening/introduction into the series, (with its ending directly explaining the direction of the later books). Obviously this isn't going to debunk the scaling, but it does add up over time, doesn't it?
Who would this effect:
The Downstreamers second key --> will lose it
Goddess of the Manifold --> Loses infinitely into Tier 0 and will instead scale to Low 2-C
This is probably the strongest verse in the wiki, so it's kind of crazy to me that it has to be downgraded, as the current justification does not hold up at all. Perhaps there is some other sort of scaling that could be used to get it to tier 0, but alas. That's for another day.
Edit: Found this that could be used for further justification for Proxima being a finite multiverse (as the death of the multiverse is the whole plot)
In Journey to Amasia (a story from Phase Space), Woodin cardinals are present inside the verse as physical material. Which is a part of the cosmology the Downstreamers create.
With the assumption that AJTM is canon to the Manifoldverse, due to Manifold: Phase Space being canon to Manifold as a collection of short stories. With there being direct correlation between AJTM and another Phase Space novel Dante's Dream (A)
Furthermore, they mention a "Dante's Inferno pocket universe" in Manifold Space, with "Dante's inferno" being the cosmological description of the place where Woodin Cardinals reside. (B)
And unsure if this is a justification here, but i might aswell bring it up here as i know it's going to be brought up in the comments: Malenfant mentions parallel universes deep in the phase space, with the phase space a set of all conceivable states of that system. "The wider phase space of the universe" (C)
Now lets label these arguments, A, B, and C.
Argument A
This is the misconcieved notion that the entirety of Phase Space is canon to the Manifoldverse, where this notion comes from is probably a mixture of all the connections in Phase Space to the Manifoldverse, and word of mouth. This notion is entirely wrong.
"But this is the 4th book in the Manifold series"
This is probably due to a wikipedia article that titled it as such. This is true (technically), but the book explicitly states that THIS is not JUST a Manifold book. It's more then that. It literally says this as soon as you open the book in the form of STORIES FROM THE MANIFOLD AND ELSEWHERE. So it clearly isn't just Manifold short stories, but an ensemble of stories.
Furthermore, Baxter states what IS canon to the manifoldverse in his Afterword in Phase Space, peep the fact Dante's Dreams isn't there and the fact he states:
"Of the stories set in the multiple universes of the Manifold" --> Which's description shows that there are other stories that aren't set in the Manifold universes (the way the statement was written corroborated this, and the fact there's no reason to mention that IF it was all canon to Manifold). Obviously im not stating that stories directly mentioned there is the only stories canon to Manifold, but it does paint a picture.
Argument B
Let myself back in time answer this:
And even if u wanna argue it, it is just an author maybe referencing prior works, or perhaps its just referencing the religious aspect of the story (like they do in the story when they mention this...) there's too much going against this argument rather than supporting it.
Argument C
Alr, lets start with
parallel universes deep in the phase space
--> This is likely referring to the alternate versions of Malenfant as present throughout the novels. In Time after the True Vacuum collapse, Malenfant is told by a Downstreamer that they'd be "changed" if they survive, which is seen in Manifold:Space and Manifold:Origin in which Malenfant is present though a parallel universe version of him (Versions of us and those we love --> Reference to Emma who dies in Manifold time, but is present in the other novels as a different version) in which various things happen which is why it says "destinies".
a set of all conceivable states of that system. "The wider phase space of the universe"
--> This is stated in the same monologue as the "deep in the phase space" comment and therefore it is likely its referring to the same thing, the parallel universes that spawned after the True Vacuum collapse.
Now that's i've debunked the arguments for why it SHOULD scale, lets go over some reasons why it shouldn't:
Dante's Dream is canonical to A journey to Amasia, which is in turn supposed to be canon to Manifold, right? Wrong. It is in fact canon to the Proxima duology (Proxima, Ultima and Obelisk). With Proxima Duology's cosmology being finite, haven't read the series, but it's referred to as such in the blurbs (Source: Goodreads) :
Mankind’s future in this galaxy could be all but infinite --> Proxima
In PROXIMA we discovered ancient alien artifacts on the planet of Per Ardua - hatches that allowed us to step across light years of space as if we were stepping into another room. The universe opened up to us. Now in ULTIMA the consequences of this new freedom make themselves felt. And we discover that there are minds in the universe that are billions of years old and they have a plan for us. For some of us. But as we learn the true nature of the universe we also discover that we have countless pasts all meeting in this present and that our future is terrifyingly finite. --> Ultima
Note: There are mentions of the concept of infinity in the duology, but none that i've seen that show the cosmology to be infinite, so until I see some im running on the presumption that it is in fact finite (as its kinda the entire plot of the series)
Which would:
a) contradict the Manifold cosmology (which is infinite regardless of the inaccuracies in its scaling so far)
b) Mean its canon to a completely different series
And thus AJTM is not canon to Manifold
Furthermore, Dante's Dream was written in August 1998 in Asimov's magazine, and is canon to A Journey To Amasia, a book written in Obelisk (which is canon to Proxima a completely different book series --> we will get into this later) whilst the first Manifold book (Manifold Time) was written in 1999. With Manifold:Time being seen as the opening/introduction into the series, (with its ending directly explaining the direction of the later books). Obviously this isn't going to debunk the scaling, but it does add up over time, doesn't it?
Who would this effect:
The Downstreamers second key --> will lose it
Goddess of the Manifold --> Loses infinitely into Tier 0 and will instead scale to Low 2-C
This is probably the strongest verse in the wiki, so it's kind of crazy to me that it has to be downgraded, as the current justification does not hold up at all. Perhaps there is some other sort of scaling that could be used to get it to tier 0, but alas. That's for another day.
Edit: Found this that could be used for further justification for Proxima being a finite multiverse (as the death of the multiverse is the whole plot)
Last edited:
