Possible upgrade for Galeem and Dharkon

[SSJRyu1]

So. Dharkon and Galeem in Super smash may be severly underated at this point. Technically Galeem defeated EVERY spirit in the game and sealed them and their power away as spirits under his control.

This includes beings such as Arceus and the other creator Pokemon, and Paper Mario who are 2-B.

Heres a little more info on Galeem and proof of Arceus and Paper mario being spirits in the game.

https://www.ssbwiki.com/Galeem

https://www.ssbwiki.com/Arceus

https://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_spirits_(Super_Mario_series)#Paper_Mario

Now I would say if he can defeat these guys and seal them away, Galeem and by scaling Dharkon should be 2-B as well.

It should also probably be mentioned on their profiles that they can circumvent any defenses or offences of these characters as they would need to in order to defeat and seal them.

Two other things worth discussing are

1. If defeating the creator gods in Pokemon should afford them a speed upgrade, or a likely/possibly speed upgrade, as the creators are Omnipresent/immesurable in speed iirc

2. The final thing is becouse Galeem has all the spirits under his control, and they are supposed to imbue the user with their power, should he gain their abilties, or just the ability to make puppets of them like he did with many other fighters? Maybe make summoning have a link to the list of spirits, and explicitly state on the abilities or as a note he can summon any of those fighters as puppets? I think the ability to summon the creation trio is worth mentioning XD

I think the 2-B stats is pretty cut and dry for beating those guys, but id like to hear thoughts on the other things to.

Edit: It is worth noting that Galeem is said to "crush the Universe" further implying he did not just effect the inhabitants.

Here is the relevant scans for the discusion.

https://imgur.com/a/w17yq2I

 

[SwordLegacyQuest2]

Smash power levels for those Pokemon are really different.

 

[Dragopentling]

They didn't defeat the actual Pokémon gods. They created puppet versions of them, ffs.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Every spirit in the game is from Galeem defeating the origionals and teraing their spirit from their body to manipulate them. He makes puppets from the origionals spirits that have the same powers as the origionals. So he did indeed defeat all the origionals and can make duplicates with all their powers. Nothing suggests that they are weaker in this game, they are literally taken fom their own continuities specifically. Not alternate versions.

 

[Antvasima]

We very seldom scale from Crossovers. Sorry.

In addition, I recall one of the producers of Super Smash Brothers mentioning that all of the characters should be be perceived as toys, rather than as the originals.

 

[Kepekley23]

That would be from Satoru Iwata's interview with the Time maganize:

• ""What's interesting about the Smash Bros. games, is that the Smash Bros. games do not represent the Nintendo characters fighting against one another, they actually represent toys of Nintendo characters getting into an imaginary battle amongst themselves," explains Iwata. "And frankly that has to do with a very serious debate that we had within the company back then, which was, 'Is it really okay for Nintendo characters to be hitting other Nintendo characters? Is it okay for Mario to be hitting Pikachu?'""

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. That is correct.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Im gonna have to say WoG < actual in game statemetns.

``With an army of Master Hands under its control, Galeem sought to create a new world. The fighters and their countless stories... came to an end as the light consumed them.``

It literally refers to the stories of the characters in the game as canon to it and says their worlds were all effected to.

https://www.ssbwiki.com/Adventure_Mode:_World_of_Light

Also WoG is retconed here as that was the last game, not this current story mode, where Sakurai talks about the canon games and how it would not make sense for certain characters to outlast others since their foes were turned into spirits from their worlds, such as Hades from kid iccarus or Bayonettas demons.

"The only other two fighters that could have survived would have been Bayonetta or Palutena," Sakurai added. "That said, Bayonetta's enemies from Purgatorio (a hellish other world) were turned into Spirits, so it wouldn't have made sense for her to escape. Other divine beings like Hades were also turned into Spirits, so there was no way Palutena could have survived, too. Plus, it would have been difficult to use Bayonetta or Palutena as the starting character. The first character players try has to be simple and easy to use."

https://www.shacknews.com/article/1...er-smash-bros-ultimate-world-of-light-trailer

So in fact we have multiple pieces of proof they did infact effect the actual worlds of the characters, and all the spirits are the origionals defeated by Galeem. As stated in game and by Sakurai himself. So they should scale in this case as it is explicitly stated they are the same.

I`m not suggesting scale all the canon incarnations of the smash cahracters to this or anything like that, just Galeem and Dharkon as they are canon to the game only so contradict nothing, and defeated the origional characters in their own canon incarnations explicitly.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

I think Ryu makes sense. Sometimes WoG can be completely inconsistent from what has actually been shown

 

[SomebodyData]

Countless stories doesn't necessarily mean canon stories. Heck, looking at the fact that there are various resurrected dead characters / massive alterations to characters have been done kinda confirms that alone.

As for the explanation, not sure how that confirms anything other than Smash having their cosmologies? (Although ironically, the canon warp star doesn't actually have warping abilities, so canonical kirby would die)

Seems kinda like a stretch to assume that this is the canon versions of everyone is what I'm saying.

 

[Antvasima]

Even if this was canon, like Final Fantasy Dissidia, the characters are still all rescaled to a similar power level, so if doesn't matter. We have to go by in-game feats instead.

In addition, as far as I am aware, Arceus generally uses much weaker avatars, and the authors of the game are likely not aware of how powerful paper Mario is.

 

[Kepekley23]

I am 100% sure it was proven that Smash differentiated between the original versions and the Smash versions and had different trophies for them.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Nah, its explicitly stated by Sakurai that the other worlds of these characters were ended by Galeem, and that even the deities like Hades were turned into spirits from said worlds and he was specifically usin scaling from the other worlds to justify his reasoning for the power of the characters in smash. the whole trophy thing and toy thing is moot as of the new smash as the trophy thing is gone and replaced by the spirits which are explicitly the canon versions. Unless there is proof that he versions are weaker than the originals in this game Sakurai made it clear they are the originals and the power scaling is applicable.

As for arceus avatars, it is his soul that was taken and controlled so that pretty much eliminates it just being a avatar, and also paper Mario was defeated and turned to a spirit under Galeems control if you don't wanna use Arceus anyway.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I am 100% sure it was proven that Smash differentiated between the original versions and the Smash versions and had different trophies for them.

No it wasn't. The only trophy "difference" were in Melee, and this was purely in a gameplay manner, as the Smash trophies discuss the character's moves instead of the character's origins, most of the time. Hell the Smash characters directly gives their own trophy when defeated. Same goes for spirits.

 

[Kepekley23]

Crossovers

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I know we treat the crossover versions of the characters as different for the sake of scaling, but Smash clearly doesn't. Neither do a vast majority of crossovers. It's just something we do to avoid ridiculous stats (like 2-B Galeem, in this case).

 

[Kepekley23]

> Smash clearly doesn't

No proof of this in the slightest. Just an assumption that isn't substantiated by any feats (no feat in Smash Bros, trophy or otherwise, is even tier 2)

What is the proof that Playstation All Stars doesn't treat the Playstation characters as having the same strength as their original counterparts, then? Or Mortal Kombat's crossover games, which include tier 6 and tier 5 characters with similar descriptions?

Should SCP be 1-A, since Warhammer 40k canonically exists as a lower narrative in the verse?

This is just cherrypicking.

> It's just something we do to avoid ridiculous stats (like 2-B Galeem, in this case).

It's something we do to avoid false statistics.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

My dude, when we see a character who has the same backstory as the original, acts like the original, has the same (general) powers as the original, comes from the same world as the original and is stated to be the original, we assume it's meant to be the original, even if it's non-canon. We have no reasons to ask for information for every single bits of the original story to be told in the crossover to deduce that yes, it's meant to be the same character. Assuming that each crossover characters ever are alternate versions of the original who have parts of the same backstory but not the rest is something that's only ever done in the VS Debating community, nowhere else. Because it requires way too many assumptions.

It might apply less to crossovers with a random character showing up as a guest star, but in bigger crossovers where the entire original storyline and world is shown or implied, it's nonsensical to go out of your way to assume that only part of it is the same. The only reasons we do this is to keep wildly varying stats consistent, which is fine and all for what we do, but nonsensical in most other situations.

 

[Kepekley23]

> My dude, when we see a character who has the same backstory as the original, acts like the original, has the same (general) powers as the original, comes from the same world as the original and is stated to be the original, we assume it's meant to be the original, even if it's non-cano.

"Same general powers" is already where you are being forced to nitpick to hold up the argument.

It doesn't matter if the backstory is identical or if it comes from the "same world" - and of course it does, the Pokémon world will still be the Pokémon world even if the Pokémon are weaker than the games or the manga portrays - . You are missing the actual reasoning why we don't scale between versions. Because characters of wildly differing strength are often equalized for the sake of the plot. Unless, of course, you want to argue that everyone in that story arc by themselves would also receive scaling from Arceus, yes? Or that, if there was someone even stronger than Canon Arceus there, he would receive scaling to them? But...but...in that case it wouldn't be the same Arceus as in canon, would it? Even though for all intents and purposes he has the same backstory, same world, he would be stronger than the original Arceus if he supposedly scaled from a Low 1-C being, for example.

The same thing applies in reverse - there is absolutely no reason to believe he is as strong when everyone is equalized for the sake of the plot. We have to judge by feats, not by what we think they are without any evidence other than invalid and self-perceived crossover scaling.

> Assuming that each crossover characters ever are alternate versions of the original who have parts of the same backstory but not the rest is something that's only ever done in the VS Debating community, nowhere else.

If it isn't done here then it's irrelevant. We aren't talking character development or villain ratings, we are a VS Debating wiki.

> It might apply less to crossovers with a random character showing up as a guest star, but in bigger crossovers where the entire original storyline and world is shown or implied, it's nonsensical to go out of your way to assume that only part of it is the same. The only reasons we do this is to keep wildly varying stats consistent, which is fine and all for what we do, but nonsensical in most other situations.

So, is everyone who participates in Playstation All Star Battles as strong as their original versions? Are all of them scalable to, say, Canon Kratos, who is one of the main characters there?

Is every Elder God in SCP 1-A? Warhammer 40k exists in one of the narratives of the SCP Foundation and they have in-depth tales about the Immaterium and the Emperor, and one SCP which is literally a Space Marine. However, Yaldabaoth infinitely transcends and encompasses the narrative this takes place on. Is he 1-A too?

Yes or no?

> The only reasons we do this is to keep wildly varying stats consistent, which is fine and all for what we do, but nonsensical in most other situations.

So, let me get that straight; you are basically admitting that you view it as Schrodinger's Crossover. Both true and not true depending on whether it appears to be reasonable or not in the situation at hand.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, sometimes crossovers actually are treated as canon within fiction, but the characters are still placed on a similar power level despite wildly different statistics otherwise. Then again, this happens within the regular continuities of some fictions as well, particularly Marvel and DC Comics.

In previous Smash games the characters were stated to just be toys though.

 

[Kepekley23]

But in this case Smash Bros isn't canon to any of the games. Nor is it a regular continuity of any of them. Unless you were agreeing with me and I missed it.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with you about this case. I just mentioned that some crossovers are treated as legitimate canon, but are usually still unreliable to scale from.

 

[Teengohanrocks]

If there's a ever a reason to put Galeem on higher tiers, it would be the fact that he turns spirits of characters from all the different Zelda Timelines (Such as NES Link, Ocarina of Time Ganon, Calamity Ganon) and puts them all into the same universe.

From the description that's only standard 2-C though, rather than low 2-C.

 

[Dragopentling]

Galeem and Dharkon have never been shown to destroy or create more than one universe/dimension

 

[SSJRyu1]

Ghaleem feat wise ended the stories of countless worlds as well, statd to have consumed both the cahracters and their stories, aka the universes/multiverses of all the characters he turned to spirits. So he not only has beaten 2-B characters, but "consumed" countless stories as well only leaving this one world. So that could very well be a 2-B feat as well considering many of those verses have a multiverse to. So really we do have substantiation for his power to.

 

[Warren_Valion]

When was it stated that he consumed countless worlds?

The most context we have for his strength is the story description saying that he "crushed the universe."

 

[SSJRyu1]

It said "The fighters and their countless stories... came to an end as the light consumed them.`` as well as "This army of puppet fighters spread themselves across the last remaining world." Meaning he effected and destroyed all the other worlds and the stories from them as Sakurai explicitly says that he was reaching into their worlds, so that would be applied to his destruction, and the only world left after he was done is the world of light. So he destroyed all the worlds of the spirits to. And several have multiverses. So 2-B is consistent via feats and scaling tbh.

 

[Warren_Valion]

The countless stories are most likely referring to the histories of the fighters who died.

The second quote, however, does seem like it would be 2-B from its description.

Although, it isn't consistent in the slightest, considering we have the statement of Galaeem's attack "crushing the universe" to counterbalance this one of Galaeem destroying all realities but one.

It is inconsistent and seems very outlier-y in the whole context of the Smash Bros world.

 

[Kepekley23]

"Last remaining world" in this context means "the last remaining world outside his grasp"

 

[SSJRyu1]

He is literally in that world and has his spirits running rampant in it, so he has reached it at that point, so is there proof that it means reach? Becouse it would be contradictory to say it is refering to reach when he already has reached that world and extended his influence into it. He did end not just the fighters but their worlds and stories as well, and he did defeat foes such as Arceus and Paper Mario who are confirmed to be from the origional worlds they come from with consideration to their origional power levels in the story by Sakurai.

There is a likely 2-B feat here, as well as scaling from several 2-B characers he has defeated. Those things combined should allow Galeem and Darkhon to get a 2-B rating imo.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Galeem doesn't scale to any 2-B character in Smash.

You can't use the original source material when it comes to crossovers. The whole concept of Smash isn't a thing that can happen in many of the franchises that the characters are from.

There is no point where Breath of the Wild Link and Ocarina of Time Ganondorf meet up in a world outside of Hyrule and team up to defeat two eldritch-like abominations (Galeem and Dharkon) in the canonicity of the Zelda timeline.

The same can be said for most, if not all, other franchises that these characters are from.

Saying they're from the character's "original worlds" is completely meaningless.

It's ridiculous notion to believe otherwise.

 

[SSJRyu1]

It's stated by Sakurai himself that they are from the origional worlds and he considered their power levels in the story. It has inconsistencies story wise sure, but just becouse it makes some inconsistencies does not remove the directors stance of them being the origionals. We have used scaling like that in the past for things such as SMT Dante. Galeem and Dahrkon are strictly smash exclusives so them scaling does not effect other profiles. Also most inconsistencies can be remidied via the notion of time travel since he effects things across time and space and could take beings that are dead in this way from the past. Also the fact still remains he destroyed the countless worlds to as an actual feat.

The fact is he beat 2-B characters who are confirmed by Sakurai to be the origionals, or at least equal to the origionals, as they come from their worlds and Sakurai considered the power scaling based on the origional stories/characters. And he destroyed all the countless worlds so only one is left. The argument was made it was refering to reach only but ive not seen proof for confirmation of this and the fact he was already in the world of light and took it over contradicts that notion.

So I see him as solid 2-B from scaling of others who are 2-B and his own 2-B feat.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Have you heard of Death of the Author?

When the author makes statements that are contradicted in the narrative and lore of his work, then said statements should be disregarded.

Sakurai's statements about the characters being taken from their original works are contradicted by that never happening in the original works that the characters are from.

There is no point in a ten-hour Metal Gear Solid cutscene where Master Hand pops into reality and takes Snake from the story. It just doesn't happen. Not in Metal Gear, or any other franchise.

And because of that, Sakurai's statement should be disregarded and the characters should be tiered on actual feats within the Smash series.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Thats false actualy. There is little contradicition due to the fact he would have taken the spirits at diffrent times, or from alternate timelines, and easily could have done it Post game, or the stories could have been fixed after and like it never happened. It is outright stated he considered tehir origional power levels in the game story to. Death to the author only applies when there is massive inconsistencies directly contradicted, but in this case they can be plausably explained for teh most part. Also were not trying to cahnge the canon profiles so not as much of an issue anyway.

Also we have scaled when there is significant evidence like with SMT Dante for example.

Fact is Sakurai himself confirms he considered the characters origional power and their own verses were included.

Also he still has a 2-B feat of his own regardless.

So I see no reasonable reason to deny him a tier he has earned by scaling and his own feat.

 

[Warren_Valion]

You can't make up your own headcanon to try and justify your point.

And what are you talking about? SMT Dante scales to SMT level characters because he performed the feats of fighting against them, that doesn't affect canon Dante in any way.

A better comparison would be if Link showed up in the next pokemon game and defeated Arceus, that Link would be 2-B, but it wouldn't affect any canon version of the character.

Again, Sakurai's words are contradicted by the fact that Smash isn't canon in any regards and there is no proof of otherwise besides the words of the creator of Smash.

The Glory from Doctor Who controls the "entire omniverse", and his picture you can see Spiderman. Does that mean we should scale The Glory above the Marvel Multiverse?

No, you don't. Sakurai doesn't own the rights to all of Nintendo's properties, and his words don't have any weight when it comes to them.

And the 2-B feat that Galeem did, also stated that "universe was crushed". which is a 3-A feat, so it is clearly contradicted in its own story and narrative. That's at best a "possibly 2-B".

 

[SSJRyu1]

Im not making up headcanon, im stating a fact that Sakurai stated, which is that the actual worlds were effected and that he consdiered the origional power levels of the spirits in this story.

I never said canon Dante scales, I said SMT Dante scales to others in SMT. Showing crossover characters are in fact scaled when there is proof to support it.

They really aren't. He said it affects their worlds and he considered the origional power of the spirits showing they have the same power. The other worlds are canon to smash, but smash is not canon to them for obvious reasons. Similar how Origional DB is canon to GT, but GT is not canon to Origional DB.

The Omniverse is a nonsense term and it's structure is diffrent verse to verse. It is never directly said he is above all Marvel nor does he defeat the Marvel abstracts to prove it. In this case Galeem diretly is stated to have destroyed countless worlds, and defeated these spirits which are from their origional worlds and were considered to be the same power as they origionaly were for scaling by Sakurai. So not the same situation.

Smash has the rights to all it's franchises for use in the game so it has the right to use the lore and characters. They are directly stated to be from the origional verses and have the power they do since he considered the power scaling from the origional verses.

That does not contradict a 2-B feat. He did crush the Universe, an many others. If anything it confirms further he destroyed the universes and didn't just effect them and beat the residents.

He definatly has a 2-B feat and 2-B through scaling.

 

[Warren_Valion]

You are saying that Galeem could have taken characters at points not seen in their franchises.

"There is little contradiction due to the fact he would have taken the spirits at different times, or from alternate timelines, and easily could have done it Postgame, or the stories could have been fixed after and like it never happened."

This is headcanon.

Dante scales to SMT characters because he fought said characters.

Again look at my example of Link appearing a new Pokemon game.

What SMT Dante is not a crossover like Smash is to Nintendo, it's a faulty comparison at best.


Also, Sakurai clearly didn't consider power levels, since someone like Olimar can fight and defeat someone like Kirby.

And no, Sakurai has the license to use those characters in his crossover fighting game, but his words don't have any weight when it comes to other franchises, that's preposterous.

And no, the statement clearly said "the universe" as in one single universe. It's a feat/statement that contradicts the 2-B statement from Galeem.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Could have sure. Its not really relevant though since as I said the other series are canon to smash as Sakurai confirms, no diffrent than origional DB beign canon to GT but not the other way around, for obvious consistency reasons.

So no, not head canon, fact from the producer.

But Dante still scales regardless without any actual feats of his own showing crossover characters can be scaled if there is evidence to support it.

Thats game mechanics, anybody can beat anybody by that. Story wise Galeem canonacly beats all the spirits in smash without any gimmicks.

He has complete control over the lore for smash, including using lore from other sereis that are part of it. Sure it doesn't effect those series themselves, im not claiming that, but those series are clearly stated to have their lore and worlds be a part of smash lore, like how canon DB is part of GT lore despite it not being the reverse.

No it really doesn't. Just becouse he is said to have crushed the universe does not make the fact he is said to have destroyed countless worlds and 2-B beings disapear. Thats like saying Frieza is a planet buster since he is said to be able to destroy a planet with a death ball in Super, it's simply a lower end statement is all.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Warren. We should probably close this.

See here for further information: Crossovers

 

[SSJRyu1]

This would fall under one sided crossovers as the games are canon to smash but smash is not canon to them.

Even if you ignore the scaling for other characters he has defeated, which Sakurai himself does not, he still destroyed countless worlds which is still a 2-B feat. At the very least he should be listed as possibly 2-B with that alone and Warren even is the one who suggested the feat alone could be possibly 2-B if you don't want to listen to me.