Possible Persona 5 Begining of game upgrades

[Jesterofgames]

So replaying the game I noticed That there are Several large buildings in Komashidas palace Aside from the Obvious Castle Shouldn't this make Begining of Game Akira and the phantom thieves At least City block.

Also Early game phantom thieves can react To Arc Angels attack.

Who in general Should be Supiror to the lesser persona/shadow Angel who Has A low tier Bless/light Attack Kouha. Now Since this is the metaverse and your mind makes stuff real this could be considered a legitimate light attack meaning the Begining of game Phantom thieves' reactions Should be Light speed/FTL.

 

[Thomas_The_hype_Engine]

Firstly, if we're going to accept the palace size thing as a feat, Kamoshida's has a moon:

https://youtu.be/Si3Nj13tJ0A?t=2526

Secondly, they're explicitly called bless and the light attacks in previous games also looked nothing like actual light and neither do these.

There is a light timing feat later in the game doe:

https://youtu.be/ktG7FEmhOS0?t=899

Literally reflected sunlight, much more direct and consistent even.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

We do also need a calc of Futaba's palace. She turns a room into an entire desert with a pyramid and town far into the distance.

 

[Thomas_The_hype_Engine]

We do also need a calc of Futaba's palace. She turns a room into an entire desert with a pyramid and town far into the distance.

It has a sun in it so I'd say the town and pyramid are sort of irrelevant.

 

[Jesterofgames]

We do also need a calc of Futaba's palace. She turns a room into an entire desert with a pyramid and town far into the distance.

Also a sun

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

That as well.

 

[Jesterofgames]

@Thomas the hype engine

First off Thank you I know I remembered seeing a Moon in kamoshidas palace I just couldn't find it And it was driving me crazy


Second off Again This In the metaverse unlike the other games If they see it as light I don't see why it shouldn't be considered a light speed attack

Also They look like light to me but that's just one guys opinion

Also I don't see Timing in that Clip

 

[Thomas_The_hype_Engine]

@Thomas the hype engine
First off Thank you I know I remembered seeing a Moon in kamoshidas palace I just couldn't find it And it was driving me crazy


Second off Again This In the metaverse unlike the other games If they see it as light I don't see why it shouldn't be considered a light speed attack

Also They look like light to me but that's just one guys opinion

Also I don't see Timing in that Clip

Wall breaks, light travels from the broken wall to the other side of the room, is trackable and takes a decent ammount of time getting there, pretty sure Ryuji's idle animation is even still going in the background. Also:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Laser/Light_Beam_Dodging_Feats

Don't show the ability to reflect, show variable speeds, seem to actively impart kinetic force. Just to name a few problems. They're not even called light.

 

[Jesterofgames]

@Thomas

And yet again This is a place where Your mind makes Things Real A toy gun can fire Actual Bullets. Yeah the light Has several signs pointing to it Not being legit But If they see it as light it should still Be light But *Shrugs* this doesn't really matter in the long run Or affect a lot of things

 

[Thomas_The_hype_Engine]

@Thomas
And yet again This is a place where Your mind makes Things Real A toy gun can fire Actual Bullets. Yeah the light Has several signs pointing to it Not being legit But If they see it as light it should still Be light But *Shrugs* this doesn't really matter in the long run Or affect a lot of things

Except at no point is it seen as light.

 

[Jesterofgames]

Also Slight question. That is on topic for persona 5 But off topic because it's end of game Why is Akira Listed as having "Likely MFTL+ combat and reaction speed?"

Also @Thomas the hype engine I'd argue the end explosion could be seen as a light explosion but i feel like the argument is gonna go around in circles and get us no where so I'm dropping it here

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Because of Big Bang Challenge and Cosmic Flare moves.

 

[Thomas_The_hype_Engine]

Also Slight question. That is on topic for persona 5 But off topic because it's end of game Why is Akira Listed as having "Likely MFTL+ combat and reaction speed?"

Big Bang challenge is an omnidirectional explosion, it's a dodgeable attack, he also has another attacks of similar speeds and several statements which imply that level of speed.

 

[Jesterofgames]

I should Have phrased my question better My question was meant to be Why isn't he just MFTL+

 

[Thomas_The_hype_Engine]

I should Have phrased my question better My point was Why isn't he just MFTL+

No idea, also the link for Cosmic Flare is linked to the morning star attack instead, this is cosmic flare:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPrjgf1EoDs&feature=youtu.be&t=1876

Page needs a lot of adjustments needless to say.

Lifting strenght also needs an update, BoG skill Skull cracker involves dropping a 10 ton weight on the enemy.

 

[Jesterofgames]

Speaking of morning star https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7uVL5Rak_C8 I found a much Better quality video of it (2:12)

Also I wonder if we could use the MHS Speeds of the cast to Get the KE of Skull cracker Or would that be calc stacking

 

[Thomas_The_hype_Engine]

Speaking of morning star
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7uVL5Rak_C8 I found a much Better quality video of it (2:12)

Also I wonder if we could use the MHS Speeds of the cast to Get the KE of Skull cracker Or would that be calc stacking

It would be calc stacking, especially since MHS is based on lightning attacks which come down in 1 frame.

 

[Jesterofgames]

@Thomas the hype engine Since this is a Persona 5 thread and I'm curious

What was the stuff you found for persona 5? Uh assuming the light beam in futabas palace isn't all

 

[Thomas_The_hype_Engine]

@Thomas the hype engine
Since this is a Persona 5 thread and I'm curious

What was the stuff you found for persona 5? Uh assuming the light beam in futabas palace isn't all

You would be correct:

Cosmic flare/Big Bang challenge/Morning star/light feat were already covered, not gonna repeat myself, also gonna ignore the really bit stuff, that said:

In terms of statements:

Morgana's slingshot the "Star Slayer" 's description states: "A slingshot strong enough to bring down a star"

Mada when fused says " This infinite well of power, which can devour the Universe, shall become your mask"

Which is backed up by his compendium entry which states this:

http://i.imgur.com/rfLNOEY.png

Vishu when fused states he maintains the universe:

http://i.imgur.com/nEeGtnN.png

Backed up by Ananta's compendium description stating him to be a universe creator:

http://i.imgur.com/dZObf39.png

Also, lol not legit, but futaba's treasure resetting ability has her sending out a pulse scan thing while saying "I'll do this at the speed of light"

In terms of Hax:

Several weapons are stated to be capable of memory erasure, there's some mild mind hax with some ailments and Akechi's Persona powers.

The entire cast has resistance to reality warping and this is evidenced by their outfits in the Metaverse:

https://youtu.be/TwJJAQySCXM?t=1342

Effectively, Distortion= Reality warping, cast is stated to be resistant and the Outfits are stated to be a manifestation of this.

Everyone has very low regen, as the mask ripping causes bleeding but they have no cuts post transformation (also regen skills for MC)

Also, everyone survives existance erasure, doe it's likely due to the nature of the velvet room.

And Futaba's position Hack thing is essentially pseudo combat teleporting.

Also, in terms of palaces, Kamoshida's has a moon and Futaba's has a sun, the cast outruns the collapses of them briefly, so potential speed feat there as well.

Okumura's palace is literally outer space and has stars everywhere.

Cutscene version of Shido's Palace also has stars in it.

EDIT: Also there's that whole thing with Final boss and resetting the "world".

 

[Jesterofgames]

Universal Statments for Akiras personas Are almost disturbingly consistent I mean whether we can take them seirously or not is up for debate (I think we can due to how the metaverse works but that's me) but still

 

[Jesterofgames]

Also don't know if this means anything But Mementos (the thing Yaldaboth fused with reality) is connected to the collective unconscious Just felt like I would mention it.

 

[Jesterofgames]

Bump

 

[Jesterofgames]

Bump

 

[Jesterofgames]

You know I just thought of something And i have the same question for Every other persona character But Why are they MHS? I know it's due to them dodging lightning But why is it Not MHS+ or Hypersonic Since lightning dodging feats can very so much

 

[Antvasima]

I will ask Matthew for input here.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

This is very messy and I'm kinda lost.

I'll try to address things one point at a time.

Indifferent on the first palace

"Who in general Should be Supiror to the lesser persona/shadow Angel who Has A low tier Bless/light Attack Kouha"

Obviously not real light but rather some magical angelic light.

The light timing feat is less legitimate than Captain America's Relativistic Head turning.

I don't see anything in Cosmic Flare that warrants a feat. Morning Star is MFTL+ tho.

>Universal statements for Personas as legit

LOL no. This would only be legit if they were the mythological characters' themselves. Personas are a manifestation of one's subconscious who take the form of literary of mythical characters because those characters serve as archetypes for their user's personality (Except Protagonist who can use all Personas).

So a Vishnu Persona stating that he is Universal is not a feat. It's just the Persona acting as the mythical character he is representing. Persona 2 makes it clear that Personas =/= Demons and that demons are much more powerful.

The sling shot is probably legitimate.

Keeping their clothes is not evidence of resistance of Reality Warping. It's just that the Palace ruler was not targetting them directly.

Futaba's Lightspeed statement is an obvious hyperbole, even if she does scale to the MFTL+ attacks later on.

"Several weapons are stated to be capable of memory erasure, there's some mild mind hax with some ailments and Akechi's Persona powers."

Citation?

"Also, everyone survives existance erasure, doe it's likely due to the nature of the velvet room."

No? Since when has this been a thing?

"Also, in terms of palaces, Kamoshida's has a moon and Futaba's has a sun, the cast outruns the collapses of them briefly, so potential speed feat there as well."

No, that's not a feat. The characters don't walk through the background suns and stars, they walk through the palace on the ground. And it could be teleportation.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

In regards to the size of each palace, I think we need to be careful or else the protagonists would be Star level at Beginning of Game. I generally only accept the stars of Okumura's palace because "Outer Space" is literally the theme of his palace.

 

[Jesterofgames]

Wait Why would they be star level? There's only a moon In kamoshidas palace

plus why would it be ridiculous to assume That they are star level at the Begining of the game Considering by the end of it they've hit Galaxy level

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Because in the beginning of the game they are supposed to be barely superhuman and still struggling to understand how to properly use Personas and what not.

Still, going from City-Block level to Moon level because of the background moon is very uncertain.

 

[Jesterofgames]

Ok if we don't accept the moon would it still be city block due to the Multiple buildings?

Edit: Also just so I'm clear With morning star being MFTL+ is that based off the stars moving?

Edit 2: because I didn't wanna bump this with a slightly off topic question again But https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Usvs6L9vpE0 We can consider The holy grails Arrow of light as A legit light speed attack Correct

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew Thank you for helping out.

 

[KinkiestSins]

I think MCB+ early game persona is reasonable Matt. That is the minimum for the most of palaces to be it seems.

And I do agree with Dragon, we should calc how big Futaba's palace is. I never really thought about it, but considering it takes Mona a few hours to drive in a desert and there is a town and a massive old tomb.

I am spitballing here, but it has to be tier 7 in size, maybe even somewhere in tier 6.

 

[Thomas_The_hype_Engine]

Mada literally states himself he can devour the Universe, it's a direct statement, while they are not actual mythologycal creatures they do exist in a cognitive world, wherein something being seen as something makes it true, if they are mythologically capable of doing something then they proceed to literally state they can do something themselves, I see no reason why this would not hold true.

Do I really need citation for a major plot point?

Akechi's the one causing the psychotic breakdowns by making people go berserk (he then does it to the shadows), he states this when you're about to fight him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pm-O6wgN8P8

Ailment stuff like charm and despair is self explanatory:

http://www.ggez.space/ailments/

Don't think the weapon stuff is that important but whatever, I think the ones that have the forget ailment have a description stating they " blow away memories"

Also, character states that they have resistance to distortion, characters are unaffected while in distorted areas, that's literally all there is to it, not sure why the be confusion about it.

"Since when as this been a thing?"

What, the existance erasure?

I mean, what would you call this:

https://youtu.be/ce90CjEnsX4?t=11588

They do it due to Velvet room shenanigans, but I did state this in the original post.

Regarding the outrun the collapse bit, and palaces in general. Starting with kamoshida's specifically, the moon is in fact a result of his distortions, you go into the palace during the day and the moon itself is even in front of the weird red effect that seems to delimitate the palace. Also, palces don't intersect, meaning that's not some other Palace's moon as otherwise every palace would be under water. Additionally it's a major plot point that even non-main palace areas still have cognitions in them (I.E the police station)

As for the outrunning bit, I'm skeptical of it myself, but:

https://youtu.be/Rq7Rm43S7Z0?t=4606

Collapse goes omnidirectionally, originating from the treasure's previous location, we see the characters outrunning it until they reach the exit, then they get a message saying the destination has been deleted, which would include the moon.

 

[Antvasima]

Please do not quote long messages. It spams the threads, and makes them harder to read.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Mada isn't the demon, do you even understand the basics of Persona cosmology? And don't even bring up the "Cognitive world", because it's not true.

Is Akira 2-A for being able to summon Lucifer as as Persona? Of course not.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

All this really brings up is that we still should have a calc of Futaba's Palace. It is pretty expansive.

 

[Thomas_The_hype_Engine]

Mada isn't the demon, do you even understand the basics of Persona cosmology? And don't even bring up the "Cognitive world", because it's not true.
Is Akira 2-A for being able to summon Lucifer as as Persona? Of course not.

What does any of this have to do with anything?

I'm not saying he's the SMT demon, I'm saying that he directly states he can do something. And that said statement is not particularly out there in terms of beleiveability. Neither in terms of consistency, not in terms of what that character is actively representing.

Also, what precisely is untrue about it being a cognitive world, unless you are trying to say it isn't.

 

[Jesterofgames]

Wait @Matt 1. How is cosmic flair not a feat?

2 How is the "cognitive world" not true? Ether I'm Misunderstanding your statment which is totally possible as I'm really tired or something

Also @Dragon how does all this really bring up is the fact we need a Calc for futabas palace? It also brings up Kamoshidas palace size And a few persona 5 but not BOG things me and Thomas have brought up Side note: looking through the Game For more FTL feats

 

[KinkiestSins]

Okay, we are arguing in semantics now

Dragon and I agreed we need to calc the size of Futaba's palace

Also, if Kamoshida palace is MCB, we can upgrade Akira. But we cant have a key for every. single. persona. and. shadow.

That would be impractical Even if you pulled up to my face a persona was a universe buster, it would make no sense since the best feat in the game itself is galactic.

persona descriptions =\= feats viable for tiering.

I am sorry, but if we did this for every description, we would have ALOT of higher tiers for some characters then we already do

Also, lets get on the same page. Does everyone agree with MCB early game person? Does everyone agree with a calc for futaba palace? Does everyone agree with 3-A/Low 2-C mada because description in game says so?

Lets start from there, since this thread is getting super hard and disgusting to read through tbh

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Oh my god, people.

NO

Mada is not 3-A / Low 2-C. That description relates to the mythological character Mada, not the Persona which looks like Mada.

Stop bringing it up.

Cosmic Flair isn't a feat, it's literally a background. At least the other attacks we're using for scaling have animations.