Possible Overlord upgrades...

[Dargoo_Faust]

Calling 6-C Control Magic an outlier might be flawed if it's because other spells don't have apparent environmental damage, but we don't really see anything on/near that level elsewere in the series even in higher tiers.

Fallen Down being a single-target spell doesn't change the fact that it still damages/covers a large area, which is kind of the only metric we have to judge how powerful it is.

Or the collateral is from the single target point of the spell, which doesn't really change much other than whatever being calculated from the collateral not being nerfed due to inverse-square.

An outlier doesn't really need explicit contradictions, it just needs to contradict the norm of what's demonstrated in the series/by the character.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Calling 6-C Control Magic an outlier might be flawed if it's because other spells don't have apparent environmental damage, but we don't really see anything on/near that level elsewere in the series even in higher tiers.

The cloud creation feat in the op is only about 5.5x weaker than the cloud clearing

Unless that's too much of a difference to be counted as "near"

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

What is calculable would be the heat rather than the magical light. The main character geared himself up against that light rather than the heat that vaporized the surroundings. Something he's weak to (x2 damage).

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

@Muchacho

The heat was calculated though? It came out on the lower end of 7-B or Low 7-B iirc.

@Apeironaxim

I was kind of grouping them together, as they're extremely similar spells.

On another note, I'm still of the mind that we should consider the environmental alteration/weather spells as Environmental Destruction regardless. I'm not really convinced any of the combative spells we see demonstrated by the cast reach what we extrapolate from noncombative spells.

 

[Apeironaxim]

what makes these storm/cloud feats different from others on the wiki that apply to attack potency?

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Except the fallen down calc was incredibly flawed on two fronts, for one it assumed shalltears armor was iron , and in the original source her armor was not disintergrated.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

There is Mr. Bambu's calc was redone, the second calc by Assaltwaffle is wrong if you've read source but both could have just used a nuke calculator while measuring the amount of material expunged to come to nearl/at the same conclusion...I've went off topic. My point was that it's an undead extermination spell, the 7-B is destruction was not what MC geared himself against, which is why I pointed out the magical light.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

what makes these storm/cloud feats different from others on the wiki that apply to attack potency?

If a non-combat spell can do something, a combat spell SHOULDN'T be assumed to do it. It's why we even have the page for Environmental Destruction; largescale environmental effects do not speak necessarily of a character's capacity to directly cause harm. A hurricane or tornado doesn't even always kill humans directly in their most severe areas because the force being applied on the area of the human is so low.
Similarly you can't argue Ainz has a method of applying that force on a small enough area to do meaningful harm to an individual. Or even really weaponize the force in general, it just alters the environment.

Now, Ainz has direct combat spells, sure. And direct combat Super-Tier spells as well. Our basic assumption shouldn't be to scale them without good reason to do so; as each spell accomplished different tasks. For example, I can punch someone with a relatively decent amount of force, but I obviously can't exert the same amount of force while poking someone in the eye.

Is what I had to say on the previous thread, which didn't seem to get that much of a response.

Except the fallen down calc was incredibly flawed on two fronts, for one it assumed shalltears armor was iron , and in the original source her armor was not disintergrated.

Wouldn't that make the results even lower?

 

[InfiniteSped]

There were two Fallen Down calcs iirc. One calced the crater, and the other calced the heat assuming Shalltear's armor was vaporized. Neither should count, since there was no crater in the LN, and her armor wasn't vaporized.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

No we have no knowledge of how the area was actually effected as the anime feat contradicts the source. We can't calc the feat from the light novel and the anime feat is unusable thus we're left with a blank space there on the actual energy/output of the spell.

 

[InfiniteSped]

That said, the LN one still left some carbonized tree stumps around, so its AP didn't seem that impressive.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Just to preface: My thoughts on how we should treat Environmental Destruction for Overlord isn't representive of the administration team as a whole, going off of the precedent of our last discussion of the matter. Take that as my personal opinion.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

True but we can't calc that, and its a single target holy spell, why would it damage the area around them massivly?

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

╠Âh╠Âo╠Âl╠Ây╠Â

It's a light spell, something undead are weak to but more towards Vampires. Sorry I just wanted to point that out.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

So for contradictory feats that would make this an outlier what do we have? A single target light spell that we can't calc.

A nuclear blast spell that has a large aoe, and status but lacks destructive power, that ainz avoided using the full power of, that we also can't calc as the anime hasn't reached that point and the novels don't give us any idea on the actual power of the spell.

It seems to me overlord is bereft of decent calculable feats, calling two of the feats we actually can calc an outlier seems like a stretch to me as we have no reason to suspect they are.

 

[InfiniteSped]

@Dargoo, the issue here to me is the same as the Creation feat, just to an even higher extent. Energy ridiculously higher than any actual combat spell (those haven't even shown any tier 7 feats, from what I can tell), while being spells that only control the environment and aren't really used in battle in any way.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

@InfiniteSped

Overlord tends to suffer from the phenomenon of "barely having any feats" and "having even less calculatable feats".

I do agree, though; I just don't want to stonewall this revision on my opinion alone since I was outnumbered by my peers in previous revisions.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

╠ÂH╠Âo╠Âw╠ ╠Âa╠Âb╠Âo╠Âu╠Ât╠ ╠Âw╠Âe╠ ╠Âr╠Âe╠Âm╠Âo╠Âv╠Âe╠ ╠Âa╠Âl╠Âl╠ ╠Â7╠Â-╠ÂB╠ ╠Âr╠Âa╠Ât╠Âi╠Ân╠Âg╠Âs╠ ╠Âa╠Ân╠Âd╠ ╠Âp╠Âl╠Âa╠Âc╠Âe╠ ╠Âe╠Âv╠Âe╠Âr╠Ây╠ ╠Âc╠Âh╠Âa╠Âr╠Âa╠Âc╠Ât╠Âe╠Âr╠ ╠Âa╠Âs╠ ╠Â8╠Â-╠ÂC╠Â,╠ ╠Âo╠Âh╠ ╠Âr╠Âi╠Âg╠Âh╠Ât╠ ╠Â8╠Â-╠ÂC╠ ╠Âi╠Âs╠ ╠Âd╠Âe╠Âb╠Âu╠Ân╠Âk╠Âe╠Âd╠Â

Series is ending in 4 volumes or less, my final opinion is 6-C and wait for it all to come crashing down (future editions). One good edition would be Demiurge's [Meteor Fall] animated, that was said to look like something bigger than a heated rock, using the KE explanation given and probably using the anime time or having a heated argument about whether or not it came from space, it should be calculable unless I've missed that it has magical properties.

 

[InfiniteSped]

Only now I've noticed that Muchacho's avatar isn't Nfirea

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

╠ÂI╠Ât╠Â'╠Âs╠ ╠ÂH╠Âi╠Âa╠Ât╠Âu╠Âs╠ ╠Âx╠ ╠ÂH╠Âi╠Âa╠Ât╠Âu╠Âs╠ ╠Ât╠Âh╠Âa╠Ât╠ ╠ÂI╠ ╠Âh╠Âa╠Âv╠Âe╠ ╠Ây╠Âe╠Ât╠ ╠Ât╠Âo╠ ╠Âp╠Âa╠Âr╠Ât╠Âi╠Âc╠Âi╠Âp╠Âa╠Ât╠Âe╠ ╠Âi╠Ân╠ ╠Âo╠Ân╠ ╠Ât╠Âh╠Âi╠Âs╠ ╠Âs╠Âi╠Ât╠Âe╠Â.╠Â

 

[Moritzva]

What's the consensus?

 

[Apeironaxim]

There really isn't one, since not everyone agrees with:

1) Cloud/weather spells applying to attack potency

2) If it's an outlier

Personally i don't see the difference between these cloud/storm feats and ones on the wiki that apply to attack potency

 

[Moritzva]

In a verse like Overlord, I think they're fine. I support the change.

(I've voiced my opinion about Overlord and feats like this many times before.)

 

[Bonesdrowy]

Slight bump to hopefully get a conclusion to this thread.

 

[Moritzva]

Hopefully.

 

[TheOneBelowAll123]

I am fine with the cloud/storm spells applying to attack potency, we have no combat spells that can actualy be calced so these are pretty much the only calculatable feats we have for overlord. Calling them outliers doesnt really make much sense.

 

[Moritzva]

Outright agreed. One would imagine that ''combat spells'' would be ''stronger'' than ''noncombat spells''. I firmly believe Island Level Overlord should come back and I support this upgrade.

 

[Ugarik]

By the way Fluder, Jirchnif and the army were WAY more impressed by 5 death knights being controlled. They also saw those 5 knights as much bigger threat than weather control magic. Shouldn't death knight scale to it?

 

[Apeironaxim]

By the way Fluder, Jirchnif and the army were WAY more impressed by 5 death knights being controlled. They also saw those 5 knights as much bigger threat than weather control magic. Shouldn't death knight scale to it?

Because weather magic doesn't invade your country and turn people into zombies, causing a domino effect that leads to the downfall of an entire country


Meanwhile clouds will rain and maybe some lightning. One is clearly more dangerous than the other

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Outright agreed. One would imagine that combat spells would be stronger than noncombat spells. I firmly believe Island Level Overlord should come back and I support this upgrade.

You're confusing strength with energy.

Something can have more energy, but be extremely poor at using that energy to physically harm another entity. It's why, as I've explained numerous times, a storm doesn't often kill the populations of entire cities immediately because what we calculate at "nuclear energy" is spread out so far that it can't use that energy to directly harm anything.

A bullet will kill you 9.9/10 times more often than a storm cloud. Obviously, going off of this logic, it must have Tier 7 levels of energy, seeing how it's far more efficient at killing us.

I don't think 'combative spells' equals 'more energy than anything noncombative' because the spells fundamentally do different things. We're ignoring too much context.

 

[Moritzva]

May I ask, how many feats do we have supporting Tier 6?

It's been a while, and I can't remember if any more have come up in the months I was scarcely active.

If it is a singular calc, I would still agree, but I can understand people not wanting an upgrade.

If we have multiple in that range? I firmly believe that can not be an outlier, especially when a lot of Ainz's shows of "energy" aren't meant to kill people at all; instead, meant to show just how awesome he is. I believe that his casual flexes are inferior to his serious, diehard potential.

 

[TheOneBelowAll123]

Its worth pointing out that while spells like the 6th tier weather control spell and Ainzs combative spells do different things they still draw from the same source, that being his mana. There is little reason to believe that a casual non-combative spell wouldn't scale energy wise to the serious offensive spells he uses in battle.

 

[Ugarik]

Then why creating 5 death knights is considered a bigger deal than this? And domino effect doesn't make much scence because with that stats Ainz can destroy the entire empire in few minutes

 

[Apeironaxim]

Then why creating 5 death knights is considered a bigger deal than this? And domino effect doesn't make much scence because with that stats Ainz can destroy the entire empire in few minutes

Considering the relative weakness of the characters judging the strength of the death knights Im not sure how much stock we should put into there reactions when compared to their reactions to cloud control. First things first death knights are above everything outside top tier hero teams and they create miniature zombie apocalypses.

Basically while they are a massive threat/danger they are being judged not solely off there strength but also what they mean. 1 death knight is enough to destroy armies due to it's limitless stamina, high defense and ability to create zombies with everything it kills. Even flueder the empires trump card could only defeat a single death knight by bombarding it from the sky.

The truly scary thing about the death knights was the fact they were nigh unstoppable for anything less then powerful heroes (even most powerful heroes outside evil eye would find themselves on barley even footing with them) and the fact ainz wielded five of these kingdom ending threats, that flueder couldn't manage.

edit Ie even if we assume cloud controls power is ap applicable (Considering the sites ruling on such things it should be) we wouldn't be able to consider the death knights more powerful, the problem is there are five kingdom ending threats supposdly created by ainz. Thats far more intimidating then a single entity displaying the power to destroy a nation, especially when its only being displayed with the movement of clouds.


-The pen or the sword, on the downgrade thread

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

I got quoted.... Happy! To add on a bit

With ainz current stats he can destroy the empire with redicolous ease regardless of the clouds. He could literally activate death aura and casually walk downt the street and the empire would fall as there is nothing they can do about it.

those clouds moving while impressive aren't exactly the most notable threat, comparativly five death knights are an immediate threat they can't possibly deal with. They can dream up in the back of there minds ways to deal with a single empire destroying threat, ainz gave them five legendary undead that even there strongest trump card could barly defeat a single one of.

The only one amongst them who might understand the power requried to move the clouds is flueder and thats a pretty shaky thing to say flueder fully comprehends the engery and meaning shifting mass amounts of clouds have, especially as his sole expertise is magic and both weather control and the death knights fall outside the limits of his understanding. As I said before these are pathetically weak characters trying to comprehend things beyond there range of understanding

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Adding my two cents, Death Knights kill people and raise zombies, which can create more zombies which creates a domino effect which also accumulates negative energy which adds even more to the domino effect.

Clouds can affect crops and give you some shade, not much more. Medieval characters also have literally no reason to assume the energy yield of moving clouds quickly is very high, when even people in modern times tend to be quite disconnected with how energy intensive such a thing would be.

But back to the main point, these are legendary undead that have been said to raze battlefields. Clouds are just clouds. One carries far more inherent danger.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Thank you Lancelot, that's what i said as well, glad you agree

although not in as much detail

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Sometimes being straight to the point is a virtue.

Or it gets you lynched.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Guess Im not getting lynched

 

[Ugarik]

even if we assume cloud controls power is ap applicable (Considering the sites ruling on such things it should be) we wouldn't be able to consider the death knights more powerful, the problem is there are five kingdom ending threats supposdly created by ainz. Thats far more intimidating then a single entity displaying the power to destroy a nation, especially when its only being displayed with the movement of clouds.

-The pen or the sword, on the downgrade thread

Isn't there a contradiction? I mean if non of the characters relate clouds movenent to overall power of the user why should we?