Possible Mega Man X revisions

[Tapkmiz]

I have been eyeing a Mega Man X revision for a while now, but only now have I sat down and properly written it. I don't have a lot to preface this with; I'd rather get to the meat of the argument at once.

PART 1: Canon questions

I'd like to first lay the ground for things to come. The current understanding of Classic and X series’ relationship to each other present in this wiki is wrong. What can be inferred from looking at the profiles is quite simple: that there is a degree of ‘continuity’ between the two, or at least, as far as X is concerned, that there is enough continuity between X and Classic for scaling purposes. I don't believe this to be appropriate; I bring light to the Mega Man X4 developer interview, with a direct quote from Mr. Okohara about this exact topic:

“Okohara: The world of Mega Man X is not the strictly determined future world of the original series. It’s merely one possible future, or parallel world. There’s a character that resembles Dr. Light in the X series, but whether they’re the same person or not, we leave ambiguous.”

This quote states the very uncontroversial fact of the X series non canocity to the Classic series very clearly, but there is something much more important for us here. That being that the X series only follows Classic vaguely, i.e. it doesn't follow it to a T, and this is shown in how Classic can add new gadgets and mechanics that X does not have to concern itself with in any way, such as the Double Gear system. This means that there isn't a reason to scale X to any Classic feats; after all, why would we? We don't know if those feats were performed in the X series' continuity, we don't even know if that's really the Dr. Light.

The other game that links Classic and X together is the arcade game Mega Man: The Power Fighters. The problem is, this game is also explicitly stated by the developers to take place in an alternate universe. Another direct quote:

“How did we come up with the ideas for “Ultimate Justice! Rockman 2 The Power Fighters”? We started with establishing that the arcade series of Rockman would be in a parallel world so to speak, so we could be free to make changes to the main characters, enemies, settings and so on that you normally see in the home consumer version of the series. (How all this actually appears to the fans, however, I’m not so sure.) This time we made a small connection with Rockman 8, but even so there are still some things, like with Rockman and Duo, that are at odds with the main series portrayal…”

…it's not even canon to Classic, and there's no reason to make a link between this game and X; that'd be up to the X series to prove.

With all I’ve said in mind I find it appropriate to believe that the X series can only be judged on its own merit to avoid ambiguity, so only feats that happened on the X series and series related to MMX should be used to justify the ratings in their profiles. And this brought me to different conclusions concerning those feats themselves, for the X series.

PART 2: What Now?

Speed, due to MMX having MFTL and MFTL+ feats of its own is mostly unchanged, though the justification would have to be edited. Class T Lifting Strength has no justification apart from scaling to MM and PM, and that isn't viable now, so unless there's any feats for X alone we're kinda at a loss there. The thing that mainly concerns me however is AP.

The current AP rating for X characters is Solar System level based on Lumine’s star busting feat. I have no issues with the feat itself; it appears, at a glance, to be perfectly usable. My problem lies on how this feat fits into the bigger picture; I noticed that it is way higher than anything else in the series. Below are seven feats; the General's durability, the Magnet Mine (both creation and KE), Gravity Beetle's black holes (also both creation and KE), the Squeeze Bomb (also creation and KE), and Lumine's Paradise Lost. For (mainly my) ease I have put the respective yields in yottatons, since most feats share that unit anyway.

0.0573, 2.814, 14.38, 17.57, 18.234, 19000795.521670625, 25143403441682.883

I believe the reader will notice a peculiarity with these numbers. The upper two feats by themselves are larger than all the preceding ones put together and the five lower feats fit very nicely with each other. This is a very neat demonstration of what outliers look like; and precisely why they shouldn’t be counted.

With this in mind I see no justification for keeping X’s 4-B (or even a Low 4-C) rating. The most consistent AP feats by far are in the lower end of 5-A, (with two feats even lower, at 5-B) and that's the tier I believe MMX characters should have.

I'm unsure if this downgrades MMZ characters, but for now I'm interested only in MMX characters, so that'd be discussion for another thread.

I appreciate any corrections.

—

Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Some of the questioned statements from authors appear to have been made ages ago and/or since been retconned. There are too many in game connections that very strongly imply or even basically confirm that it takes place 100 years after the entirety of the Classic series. The entire backstory of Zero basically proves this that he was originally a creation of Dr Wily as hinted as a project revealed in Mega Man 2: The Power Fighters Arcade game. Or the fact that X is a remodeled upgrade over the classic Mega Man designed to be a huge improvement in every way. Even the first three titles are quite blatant about that. Likewise, games made after X4 as well as the Zero + ZX series double down on the lore collections.

But I have notified people in the Mega Man Discord server, maybe they can attest and elaborate more.

 

[Smashtwig]

Yeah sorry that MMX hasn't been updated in a long time

We were playing putt party for like two years

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

The other game that links Classic and X together is the arcade game Mega Man: The Power Fighters. The problem is, this game is also explicitly stated by the developers to take place in an alternate universe. Another direct quote:

“How did we come up with the ideas for “Ultimate Justice! Rockman 2 The Power Fighters”? We started with establishing that the arcade series of Rockman would be in a parallel world so to speak, so we could be free to make changes to the main characters, enemies, settings and so on that you normally see in the home consumer version of the series. (How all this actually appears to the fans, however, I’m not so sure.) This time we made a small connection with Rockman 8, but even so there are still some things, like with Rockman and Duo, that are at odds with the main series portrayal…”

…it's not even canon to Classic, and there's no reason to make a link between this game and X; that'd be up to the X series to prove.

This is pretty much the only thing I can comment on. Quoting myself:

"However, certain things introduced in these games would reappear: Beat's Forcefield came back on Mega Man & Bass, Wood Man's rolling attack came back in Super Adventure Rockman , and Shadow Man kawarimi technique came back in Super Adventure Rockman and Mega Man Battle & Chase. Also, the Mega Man: Robot Master Field Guide references several things exclusive to these games, specifically Duo's shoulder tackle, Napalm Man's guided missiles, Plant Man's buster shots and flower minions, Shadow Man's kawarami technique and summoning a giant Kerog, Stone Man's alternate way of using the Power Stone, Wood Man's rolling attack, Proto Man's Proto Strike, and Centaur Man's Centaur Arrow along with his shield and spear.
I also don't know what are the supposed changes that these games did outside of character's abilities (And there is an in-universe explanation for that for the bosses at least)."

tl;dr: Abilities introduced on the duology are rehused on future games or referenced on the RM Field Guide (With several of them existing only due to modifications performed by Wily on those games), and the things that are "at odds with the main series portrayal" are never elaborated on nor can I see them (Unless you want to be pedantic and say things like "Duo's energy shouldn't be purple").

 

[Smashtwig]

I'm not a chief and director of the operation but i'll tell u what i specifically know, and most of it is gonna be "we're working on it but very very damn slowly"

PART 2: What Now?

Speed, due to MMX having MFTL and MFTL+ feats of its own is mostly unchanged, though the justification would have to be edited. Class T Lifting Strength has no justification apart from scaling to MM and PM, and that isn't viable now, so unless there's any feats for X alone we're kinda at a loss there. The thing that mainly concerns me however is AP.

We got a new MFTL feat going on so no need to worry about that (though imo its pretty damn cap)

We got a Class P Rock or something soon, I don't see why X can't scale to Rock tho

The current AP rating for X characters is Solar System level based on Lumine’s star busting feat. I have no issues with the feat itself; it appears, at a glance, to be perfectly usable. My problem lies on how this feat fits into the bigger picture; I noticed that it is way higher than anything else in the series. Below are seven feats; the General's durability, the Magnet Mine (both creation and KE), Gravity Beetle's black holes (also both creation and KE), the Squeeze Bomb (also creation and KE), and Lumine's Paradise Lost. For (mainly my) ease I have put the respective yields in yottatons, since most feats share that unit anyway.

0.0573, 2.814, 14.38, 17.57, 18.234, 19000795.521670625, 25143403441682.883

I believe the reader will notice a peculiarity with these numbers. The upper two feats by themselves are larger than all the preceding ones put together and the five lower feats fit very nicely with each other. This is a very neat demonstration of what outliers look like; and precisely why they shouldn’t be counted.

With this in mind I see no justification for keeping X’s 4-B (or even a Low 4-C) rating. The most consistent AP feats by far are in the lower end of 5-A, (with two feats even lower, at 5-B) and that's the tier I believe MMX characters should have.

I see what you're trying to say, but when it comes to outliers we can't just look at and stop at the numbers to declare that something is an outlier, think of it like this this way- when looking at numbers and numbers only, by this logic every feat would have an outlier on their first feat. Most if not all franchises would have these kinds of outliers because most feats would be like, Tier 9 for slamming people into buildings or something, and the more those feats build up the more the actual notable feats become outliers. Obviously, if we show how every attack every blows up the planet, that'd just look extremely bad visually and narratively and would ruin the pacing really bad.

I think it's better to look at the situation narratively too, since like, classic series, we have interstellar travel and a bunch of space themed stuff, we got Wily Stars, we got universe cop Duo etc, we got giant spacetime warping laser beams, black holes, a dude literally called "Galaxy Man". So when we see actual cosmic level feats, we shouldn't be all that surprised to see a cosmic level attack, since there has been a cosmic theme for a very long time now. When you see a guy blow up a planet, you would reasonably expect that stronger and stronger characters would be able to destroy bigger things, such as a solar system

So yeah, numbers aren't everything when it comes to outliers- but rather if the kind of stuff you see makes sense for the verse as a whole

 

[Tapkmiz]

post

I wasn't saying there isn't any connection between the two, I acknowledge as such in the OP that X follows from Classic. The question is to what degree, and whether or not it's anachronistic to apply every feat/ability in Classic without X proving that it happened. I point to something like the DG as part of this anachronism.

I think it's better to look at the situation narratively too, since like, classic series, we have interstellar travel and a bunch of space themed stuff, we got Wily Stars, we got universe cop Duo etc, we got giant spacetime warping laser beams, black holes, a dude literally called "Galaxy Man". So when we see actual cosmic level feats, we shouldn't be all that surprised to see a cosmic level attack, since there has been a cosmic theme for a very long time now

And even with that in mind, a 4-B feat still sticks out like a sore thumb, especially when Classic is 5-A himself.

If there's revisions ongoing or planned though I'd rather a mod close this thread and wait to give my imput in those once they arrive.

 

[Smashtwig]

And even with that in mind, a 4-B feat still sticks out like a sore thumb, especially when Classic is 5-A himself.

I understand that, but the same can be said for any verse that gets its very first feat. There've been massive jumps in power before, don't see why we should just say "no" to it, especially when it's straight up on screen. Just make multiple keys if it's that serious

If there's revisions ongoing or planned though I'd rather a mod close this thread and wait to give my imput in those once they arrive.

They've been planned for too dang long, I don't thinky it'll be worth it for you to wait that long tbh

 

[Maskofthedragon]

“Okohara: The world of Mega Man X is not the strictly determined future world of the original series. It’s merely one possible future, or parallel world. There’s a character that resembles Dr. Light in the X series, but whether they’re the same person or not, we leave ambiguous.”

This just seems like them covering their bases, incase anymore dumb stuff like Quint was written in the future
Which I don't recall ever happening again

 

[Migue79]

Ok... There's a lot to unpack here. One by one, let's go:

Canonicity Points

Okay, so... I'm not going to touch the whole ordeal with The Power Fighters, especially since Dante's gone on ahead and tried to address the points for it. But if I need to, I'll gladly do so.

I will tackle the other point of contention, that being the X4 statement. Simply put, that statement is definitely outdated and an unreliable piece of information. There's a decent chunk of evidence suggesting that the Dr. Light that created X is the same one that created Rock that is both newer and even older than the interview given (thus proving that Classic and X exist in the same timeline). Heck, Dr. Light's Journal (which is just a canon re-telling of the events before, during and after Mega Man 1 from Dr. Light's perspective) even clearly foreshadows the existence of X. In addition, one of the pieces of information linked even talks about that Proto Man's schematics were used as reference to create Zero, and we know from the Rockman Zero Timeline that the events of Mega Man 10 happened (like come on, that unknown virus is 100% the Roboenza Virus).

And something else to consider with that statement: the person justifies the idea of the X-series being a parallel world by saying that the Dr. Light in the X-Series is possibly not the same one in Classic Era. Given the evidence above that contradicts this, 'Death of the Author' can very much be applied here making the statement unusable.

Scaling Points

Mmm... No, I don't agree with Lumine's Paradise Lost being an outlier. Remember most of those feats were done early on in the timeline with a weaker X, and we know that X gets stronger throughout the series. Even in later entries like X6 we see the guy go from not being able to scratch High Max to being able to beat him pretty handily in the same game.

In the CRT for X that's long overdue, we intend to split X's X-Era keys further to reflect this increase in power. With the later X-Era key (intended to reflect X6-X8 X), there would only be 1 Tier 5 feat and 2 Tier 4 feats, which should adequately address any outlier 'problems' here. I apologize for taking too long with the CRT. It's just my will to continue revising profiles has waned over time...

I guess for my final conclusion: I still think upscaling X-era characters from Classic is fine, that Tier 4 Mega Man X characters are still fine (but do think it should be better justified and indexed) and that I disagree with this CRT.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Disagree FRA

 

[Tapkmiz]

post

I see I was mistaken about the MM-MMX link.

Given that my main point of contention (a tier 4 ranking being justified by two feats way apart from each other against 5 other tier 5 feats that are very close to each other) would be solved by the key suggestion you mention here (that I do not disagree on principle) I think any discussion would have to be held off until then. This matter can be considered concluded until then; the thread may be closed.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I will consider one thing, I personally wouldn't mind breaking up the X profiles into keys. X, Zero, and Axl do get modifications and upgrades as the series progresses and Sigma whenever he gets a remodel does become stronger than he was in the previous game. And by X8, they're all able to take out an entire army of Sigma clones who are all exactly as strong as Sigma was before hand. But it can still be argued that they would arguably not be too far behind due to being "Made of the same alloys such as Bassnium."

Classic Mega Man has similar keys where he has at least High 6-C, likely 5-A. The former comes from some feats of early robot masters while 5-A is downscaling from feats later down the line and still being made of Ceratanium. Then has 5-A normal stats and up to like Low 4-C with power ups in a later key. X could have something similar but his absolute low end should still be above Classic Mega Man's absolute high end and might still have possibly 4-B for the same reason. While X8 and onwards if we ever see any would be 4-B outright.

 

[TartaChocholate]

So they key split is going to be a thing for the X series? Pretty dope, always thought it would be pretty fitting given how clear cut the calcs were for different stages.

 

[Smashtwig]

tarta lurking for a potential zero vs cloud match be like

 

[TartaChocholate]

It's a stomp, Cloud has nothing to prevent Zero's absurd immortality

Hey, I'm a simple person, I see mentions of my boyo X, I click

 

[TheHedgememe]

I will consider one thing, I personally wouldn't mind breaking up the X profiles into keys. X, Zero, and Axl do get modifications and upgrades as the series progresses and Sigma whenever he gets a remodel does become stronger than he was in the previous game. And by X8, they're all able to take out an entire army of Sigma clones who are all exactly as strong as Sigma was before hand. But it can still be argued that they would arguably not be too far behind due to being "Made of the same alloys such as Bassnium."

Classic Mega Man has similar keys where he has at least High 6-C, likely 5-A. The former comes from some feats of early robot masters while 5-A is downscaling from feats later down the line and still being made of Ceratanium. Then has 5-A normal stats and up to like Low 4-C with power ups in a later key. X could have something similar but his absolute low end should still be above Classic Mega Man's absolute high end and might still have possibly 4-B for the same reason. While X8 and onwards if we ever see any would be 4-B outright.

Agreed with this reply. X and Zero get numerous upgrades throughout the series, Zero encourages X to get as strong as him after Vile beats him in X1, and by the time of Zero's X6 ending Zero implicitly states that X has outright surpassed him. Considering the fact that their arsenal of abilities/weapons constantly expand from the increasing amount of Mavericks they defeat, it is reasonable to believe that X and Zero do get stronger over the course of the series and are eventually able to reach 4-B AP/Durability.

This example is more of a gameplay change, but X also gains the ability to dash from the start in X2 when he previously needed the First Armor's foot parts to dash.

I'm of the opinion that there should be a Pre-X8 5-A, possibly Low 4-C key in addition to the X8 and onwards 4-B key. I don't think anybody pre-X8 should be 4-B because that would mean they would be scaled to a feat that has yet to even happen. Something like 4-B Chill Penguin or 4-B Iris is made questionable with the fact that X and Zero become stronger as the series progresses. Fortunately, the Zero series would be unaffected due to them still upscaling from Lumine's Paradise Lost feat. However, I am sure something like this warrants a CRT of its own rather than being in the replies of another CRT.

 

[TartaChocholate]

Agreed with this reply. X and Zero get numerous upgrades throughout the series, Zero encourages X to get as strong as him after Vile beats him in X1, and by the time of Zero's X6 ending Zero implicitly states that X has outright surpassed him. Considering the fact that their arsenal of abilities/weapons constantly expand from the increasing amount of Mavericks they defeat, it is reasonable to believe that X and Zero do get stronger over the course of the series and are eventually able to reach 4-B AP/Durability.

This example is more of a gameplay change, but X also gains the ability to dash from the start in X2 when he previously needed the First Armor's foot parts to dash.

I'm of the opinion that there should be a Pre-X8 5-A, possibly Low 4-C key in addition to the X8 and onwards 4-B key. I don't think anybody pre-X8 should be 4-B because that would mean they would be scaled to a feat that has yet to even happen. Something like 4-B Chill Penguin or 4-B Iris is made questionable with the fact that X and Zero become stronger as the series progresses. Fortunately, the Zero series would be unaffected due to them still upscaling from Lumine's Paradise Lost feat. However, I am sure something like this warrants a CRT of its own rather than being in the replies of another CRT.

Interestingly, in the japanese script of Megaman X1, Zero outright tells X that he has become stronger than he is when he is dying following Vile's defeat. So X in just the first game has a major growth in power.

 

[TartaChocholate]

tarta lurking for a potential zero vs cloud match be like

You know, maybe Zero vs Cloud may not be possible due to keys not matching, but it just dawned on me that the key split would mean the X/Zero vs Link can get a runback.

 

[TheHedgememe]

You know, maybe Zero vs Cloud may not be possible due to keys not matching, but it just dawned on me that the key split would mean the X/Zero vs Link can get a runback.

Definitely not. Cloud's currently 2-A and Zero's at most 4-B. Having new keys will definitely be a godsend for people wanting to make matchup threads with X and Zero, though. It'll widen their pool of potential opponents considerably.

 

[omegabronic]

What i truly want is make Zero vs Shadow and X vs Sonic

 

[TheHedgememe]

What i truly want is make Zero vs Shadow and X vs Sonic

I bet you could make something like that with Sonic and Shadow's Adventure era selves. Speed would probably have to be equalized since the Adventure keys that are 4-B are only FTL-FTL+, but I think it could make for an interesting discussion.