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Possible Dark Souls massive upgrade
- Thread starter Adam_of_darkness
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- dark souls
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TheEverlasting has been meaning to do a massive upgrade for the DSverse for some time now, he just hasnt gotten the chance
Also, ThePerpetual did a calc some time ago that yielded Country level and Massively Hypersonic results
Also, ThePerpetual did a calc some time ago that yielded Country level and Massively Hypersonic results
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- Thread starter
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Just got here, can you highlight the thread for more inputs?
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It seems that there doesn't seem to be too much commotion going around in that blog, although I will highlight this thread via request.
Not even sure if this calc was accepted either.
Not even sure if this calc was accepted either.
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@Lina It was accepted by Numbersguy, who was a calc group member for awhile (had to step down due to Internet issues, among other real life events), and Aiden. It should be usable in that case. The calc looks fine to me, but I'm not sure where he found the mass from. He says its from an older blog, so does anyone know which one that is?
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Hi, I'm the aforementioned friend. If anyone has any sort of objection to the calc and/or wants more evidence regarding the sun-fire relationship, I'll gladly answer.
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While i kinda agree with the upgrade, i'm not certain about the sun/flame relationship especially if we justify an upgrade with lore speculation, but you could say the ashen one is planet level because he absorbed the flame which warped time and space at least across the world. And regarding the speed, the ashen one is able to dodge the nameless king cloud to ground lighning (just saying).
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@Dark
He's probably referring to the original version of the calc.
I also made a google docs page on the scaling mechanics in Dark Souls, and explanations for them being Tier 4. It's still incomplete, but I got the most important parts out of the way.
He's probably referring to the original version of the calc.
I also made a google docs page on the scaling mechanics in Dark Souls, and explanations for them being Tier 4. It's still incomplete, but I got the most important parts out of the way.
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Hmmm, as I had said in the original blog that The Everlasting had made, Im personally not comfortable scaling the Lords of Cinder to Star Level just because their souls can fuel the First Flame. Especially since, to my understanding, any old undead can fuel the First Flame, but the stronger they are the longer it lasts. Also since there are no other feats remotely on that level in the entire series.
The only Star Level ranking that Im ok with is EoG Ashen One taking the Usurpation of Fire ending as canon where he/she...
'*SPOILERS* *SPOILERS* '*SPOILERS*
...takes the power of the First Flame as their own. That I can accept.
(furthermore, looping back to my original point, its also another reason it makes no sense to have all Lords of Cinder at Star Level. The Ashen One absorbing the power of the First Flame was built up as something that would give him/her extreme power. i.e. Star Level power. But if all Lords of Cinder were already Star Level and he was Large Star/Solar System Level by virtue of defeating the Soul of Cinder, then what the hell was the point?)
I also have a couple of disagreements with some other scalings but I'll wait to see if the Star stuff is accepted before bringing them up...
Bear in mind that I haven't played Ashes of Ariandel (Im waiting for The Ringed City) and I haven't played Dark Souls in general in like half a year so if any of my info is wrong/out of date feel free to tell me (no spoilers though
)
The only Star Level ranking that Im ok with is EoG Ashen One taking the Usurpation of Fire ending as canon where he/she...
'*SPOILERS* *SPOILERS* '*SPOILERS*
...takes the power of the First Flame as their own. That I can accept.
(furthermore, looping back to my original point, its also another reason it makes no sense to have all Lords of Cinder at Star Level. The Ashen One absorbing the power of the First Flame was built up as something that would give him/her extreme power. i.e. Star Level power. But if all Lords of Cinder were already Star Level and he was Large Star/Solar System Level by virtue of defeating the Soul of Cinder, then what the hell was the point?)
I also have a couple of disagreements with some other scalings but I'll wait to see if the Star stuff is accepted before bringing them up...
Bear in mind that I haven't played Ashes of Ariandel (Im waiting for The Ringed City) and I haven't played Dark Souls in general in like half a year so if any of my info is wrong/out of date feel free to tell me (no spoilers though
)
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It's possible to have the ashen one as star level for for stealing the power of the first flame and the other main characters/major bosses at planet level for being able to rekindle de flame and make it last for several thousands of years. Planet level because of what i said earlier of the flame warping time and space across the world and there is the painted worlds which are of an unknown size, but are pretty big (and i don't think there's any reason to believe that the lords of cinder are any weaker than the painters).
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One thing is for sure, the powers of this verse are completely underestimated.
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@Final
Just because any undead can fuel the First Flame doesn't mean much. What matters is who does fuel the flame, which are the Lords of Cinder. It's like saying "any Saiyan can become a Super Saiyan God" or something.
The feat also being much higher doesn't mean much when the Lords of Cinder are regarded as the absolute strongest beings in the setting.
Uhh, was it built up like that? I legit can't remember.
Either way, I'd rather wait for Perp to get here, he'd have more to say than I do.
Just because any undead can fuel the First Flame doesn't mean much. What matters is who does fuel the flame, which are the Lords of Cinder. It's like saying "any Saiyan can become a Super Saiyan God" or something.
The feat also being much higher doesn't mean much when the Lords of Cinder are regarded as the absolute strongest beings in the setting.
Uhh, was it built up like that? I legit can't remember.
Either way, I'd rather wait for Perp to get here, he'd have more to say than I do.
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@The Everlasting
Yes, but even if we assume there is a direct correlation between the souls of the Lords of Cinder and the sun (i.e. that they have the literal energy to power the sun, and its not some magic/hax), this brings up another issue. We have literally no reason to believe that they could use that kind of power in an attack. Its not like Naruto or Bleach where the more of their respective energies they load into an attack the more powerful it gets. Spells typically have a particular destructive capacity (not counting game mechanics). Furthermore, even if we were to assume they were Star Level, they only release this kind of power through the verse equivalent of a suicide attack, so once again scaling their regular AP to it is, imho, kind of ridiculous.
Thats why I brought up the other feats, because if we are to scale all these characters to Star Level without an actual feat, it would be useful to have other feats of similar level backing it. Unfortunately they dont exist. Not even close to it.
I cant give you exact quotes since I havent played DsK3 in forever, but I think it was that woman in Firelink dressed in all black with the katana who said something about it. Whatever her name was. I THINK thats who it was.
Fair enough then, I can wait.
Yes, but even if we assume there is a direct correlation between the souls of the Lords of Cinder and the sun (i.e. that they have the literal energy to power the sun, and its not some magic/hax), this brings up another issue. We have literally no reason to believe that they could use that kind of power in an attack. Its not like Naruto or Bleach where the more of their respective energies they load into an attack the more powerful it gets. Spells typically have a particular destructive capacity (not counting game mechanics). Furthermore, even if we were to assume they were Star Level, they only release this kind of power through the verse equivalent of a suicide attack, so once again scaling their regular AP to it is, imho, kind of ridiculous.
Thats why I brought up the other feats, because if we are to scale all these characters to Star Level without an actual feat, it would be useful to have other feats of similar level backing it. Unfortunately they dont exist. Not even close to it.
I cant give you exact quotes since I havent played DsK3 in forever, but I think it was that woman in Firelink dressed in all black with the katana who said something about it. Whatever her name was. I THINK thats who it was.
Fair enough then, I can wait.
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It's not necessary for a series to have other feats of a similar scale to justify a massive upgrade. Just look at DS sister series, bloodborne.FinalBattleX01 said:
Also, the most prominent lords (and Manus possibly) would be scaled to large planet. Not star. Only the Ashen one would be star level.
Gwyn's weakened soul having large planet output doesn't necessarily mean that he can only exert such power in a suicide attack according to this:
"Ashen one, to be Unkindled is to be a vessel for souls. Sovereignless souls will become thy strength. I will show thee how. Ashen one, bring me souls, plucked from their vessels..."- The fire keeper
This pretty much confirms that the more powerful the individual, the more powerful the soul and vice versa. Also, spells in DS don't have a limit on their damage from a lore standpoint. Only game mechanics paint them as such.
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Also, the entire premise of the Souls series is that great souls = great power for the individual.
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@MAD SOULER
sigh* ffs I had a whole little text written but the site messed up and it got deleted. Oh well, I guess Ill just give you the 'short" version.
Funny you should say that cuz, as much as I love Bloodborne (arguably more than DkS), I disagree with its Star Level too, but thats neither here nor there. Besides, lets be honest, most of the time what we consider outlier and what not typically boils down to how much we like a series/how popular it is... (not saying we're not objective, but sometimes the lines are blurred)
Oh, I was replying to The Everlasting's suggestion that they're all Star Level. Anyways, my opinion is the same even for Large Planet Level (though as I've said, I agree with Star Level EoG Ashen One).
This only confirms that souls are power, which I think everyone here knew already. What this doesnt confirm though is that they could use that amount of energy in one attack, and that even if they could, that they would survive the process.
Also where does it say in lore spells are limitless? I dont remember that. I always though it was game mechanics (i.e. level up) that made them nigh limitless (till you reach cap). I mean just as an example you've got (crystal) Soul Spears which are said to be on par with Gwyn' lightning (and the armaments of the Lords). Quite a few characters can use these spells, so unless there is a set in lore attack potency for these spells, it would mean all these characters scale to Star/Large Planet level due to Gwyn.
Anyways, I've said my piece and I'm starting to feel like a broken record. This is my opinion on the matter and, unless someone brings up a point I had not considered, I'm sticking to it. So yeah, Im done, I'll leave this decision to everyone else.
sigh* ffs I had a whole little text written but the site messed up and it got deleted. Oh well, I guess Ill just give you the 'short" version.
Funny you should say that cuz, as much as I love Bloodborne (arguably more than DkS), I disagree with its Star Level too, but thats neither here nor there. Besides, lets be honest, most of the time what we consider outlier and what not typically boils down to how much we like a series/how popular it is... (not saying we're not objective, but sometimes the lines are blurred)
Oh, I was replying to The Everlasting's suggestion that they're all Star Level. Anyways, my opinion is the same even for Large Planet Level (though as I've said, I agree with Star Level EoG Ashen One).
This only confirms that souls are power, which I think everyone here knew already. What this doesnt confirm though is that they could use that amount of energy in one attack, and that even if they could, that they would survive the process.
Also where does it say in lore spells are limitless? I dont remember that. I always though it was game mechanics (i.e. level up) that made them nigh limitless (till you reach cap). I mean just as an example you've got (crystal) Soul Spears which are said to be on par with Gwyn' lightning (and the armaments of the Lords). Quite a few characters can use these spells, so unless there is a set in lore attack potency for these spells, it would mean all these characters scale to Star/Large Planet level due to Gwyn.
Anyways, I've said my piece and I'm starting to feel like a broken record. This is my opinion on the matter and, unless someone brings up a point I had not considered, I'm sticking to it. So yeah, Im done, I'll leave this decision to everyone else.
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You are right in that the First Flame is the sun, I don't think you're right in assuming the Sun is the same size as ours or even a real tangible object. In fact, as far as I'm aware, the Sun is an illusion, having been created by Dark Sun Gwyndoli.
I assume this is also why the world goes into darkness and the Sun begins to fade after Gwyndolin is killed by Aldrich.
I assume this is also why the world goes into darkness and the Sun begins to fade after Gwyndolin is killed by Aldrich.
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@Xcano
That's the illusion of the sun in Anor Londo only, not the entire world. It's kinda part of Gwyndolin's character that Anor Londo is in darkness as a result of the departure of all the gods, but he's keeping up the illusion. In fact, the illusion still remains if you decide to kill Gwyndolin in the first game, it only goes out if you kill the illusory Gwynevere.
Also it's explicitly shown in-game that the First Flame is what's linked to light in the world, having the source of all light be caused by Gwyndolin of all things doesn't make much sense, specially when the Age of Fire's beginning predates him.
That's the illusion of the sun in Anor Londo only, not the entire world. It's kinda part of Gwyndolin's character that Anor Londo is in darkness as a result of the departure of all the gods, but he's keeping up the illusion. In fact, the illusion still remains if you decide to kill Gwyndolin in the first game, it only goes out if you kill the illusory Gwynevere.
Also it's explicitly shown in-game that the First Flame is what's linked to light in the world, having the source of all light be caused by Gwyndolin of all things doesn't make much sense, specially when the Age of Fire's beginning predates him.
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Either way, it still shows that the regular Sun isn't capable of shining over the entire world or else Anor Londo would still be in day even after his death.
But if we are going to go with this it should be worth noting that Anor Londo has a lot of stars at night, so it would be more an upgrade to MSS than Large Planet/Star.
But if we are going to go with this it should be worth noting that Anor Londo has a lot of stars at night, so it would be more an upgrade to MSS than Large Planet/Star.
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@Xcano
The land of Lordran fluctuates in time between one place and another. In the darkroot garden, it's night time, yet in the Undead parish, it's day time. It's stated by Solair that time doesn't hold much meaning in the land of the undead.
@Final
As long as the soul of the individual is strong, the spell can keep getting more powerful. The level cap is merely a game mechanic. Undead can power up as long as there're souls. However, the amount of souls in the world is limited so they can't grow infinitely more powerful.
Also, if you're to consider only the Ashen one as Star, do note that Gwyn's soul is argubly the third most powerful soul in the series. Even after giving some of it to Seath and 4K and using some of it to open the door to the kiln, it was more than enough to let the flame burn for a thousand years AND have leftovers. The Soul of Cinder is the second most powerful since its an amaglimation of the souls of those who linked the flame (including Gwyn). Those should at least somewhat scale to planet level or so as, and I quote, the lords found the souls within the flame.
The land of Lordran fluctuates in time between one place and another. In the darkroot garden, it's night time, yet in the Undead parish, it's day time. It's stated by Solair that time doesn't hold much meaning in the land of the undead.
@Final
As long as the soul of the individual is strong, the spell can keep getting more powerful. The level cap is merely a game mechanic. Undead can power up as long as there're souls. However, the amount of souls in the world is limited so they can't grow infinitely more powerful.
Also, if you're to consider only the Ashen one as Star, do note that Gwyn's soul is argubly the third most powerful soul in the series. Even after giving some of it to Seath and 4K and using some of it to open the door to the kiln, it was more than enough to let the flame burn for a thousand years AND have leftovers. The Soul of Cinder is the second most powerful since its an amaglimation of the souls of those who linked the flame (including Gwyn). Those should at least somewhat scale to planet level or so as, and I quote, the lords found the souls within the flame.
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Been meaning to get to this for quite some time... will come back with a blog on the matter at hopefully some point soon.
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So, are we good on Star level Ashen one and Planet level god tiers or nah?
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Does the ashen one get a speed upgrade for dodging cloud to ground lightning during the ringed city final boss?
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Yes, he should and it should scale to several characters too.
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Not to mention that the Nameless King's Cloud dispersion feat could also get mach 400~ speed and it also scales to other characters.
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Bump
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Personally, I think DS characters should get lightning speed, but I digress.
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@Sera Game mechanics aren't an excuse here
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@Sera
Pray tell, how is it "game mechanics"? Because I'm 1,000% sure dodging attacks in-game aren't "game mechanics".
Pray tell, how is it "game mechanics"? Because I'm 1,000% sure dodging attacks in-game aren't "game mechanics".
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Yeah, that wouldn't be gameplay mechanics. Gameplay mechanics is like health bars and pocket space, dodging stuff in gameplay is still a legit feat.
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Have you played the Sir Knight Gael fight? I didn't even know that lightning could hurt you because it never hit me. And it does count as game mechanics if it contradicts something else. Show me a video of someone being harmed by the lightning. It never touched me, even when I'm near it.
Don't call it an "excuse" it certainly isn't one.
Don't call it an "excuse" it certainly isn't one.
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That has nothing to do with anything, though? How does that relate to game mechanics?Sera Loveheart said:
"Show me a video of someone being harmed by the lightning. It never touched me, even when I'm near it."
Again, what does that have to do with anything? If you can dodge it or move at speeds comparable to it, it's a speed feat.
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How does it being able to hurt you matter with anything discussed here?
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So, are the changes going to be made? Several people are in agreement here.
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So we're good on lightning timing DS high and god tiers (Chosen undead and above due to Gwyn being argubly stronger than Nameless King)?
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