Possible big Metroid AP downgrades+tiny ability removal

[Chariot190]

Dude, calm down, no need to get heated.

The most obnoxious thing you can do on the internet is assume how other's feel, I am calm, I'm just being blunt as **** now, kinda the pass the point of being subtle, your argument is headcanon, relies on numerous assumptions, contradicts what info we do know, and so on, and even if we did go with your numerous unfounded assumptions, it'd scale anyway because she tanked a hit from it while this very same enemy was using it so even if it was amped, she tanked the amped version, whether you like it or not.

I just think the ice beam being amped makes sense because the other weapons were amped like the bomb.

You realize this is an awful argument when the majority of the tech that was taken WASN'T amped, EXPLICITLY at that, Screw Attack? Wasn't amped. Plasma Beam? Wasn't amped? Missiles? Straight up stated to be worse compared to hers because the dude using them was an idiot. If you want to go this route, you're actively arguing against yourself because the majority of the "other" weapons were explicitly NOT amped. In fact they were seemingly inferior to Samus' own version.

I wouldn’t have to assume that if a source was provided saying that weapon size correlated to lack of control as opposed to a change in power level.

Bad argument, we know that's not the case in Metroid, we even have a shitty game revolving around that in Federation Force, where despite being the same weapons and even larger, they're actually inferior to Samus. And again, you fail to realize that the WHOLE FACILITY was being POWERED by the Ice Beam. The facility's ENTIRE output came DIRECTLY FROM the capsule, it wasn't magnified, that's just you making guesses that the source material never states or even hints at, and when your argument is "well it's bigger so it MUST be better", in a verse where it's an actual plot point where other factions suck BECAUSE they need extremely large things to even ATTEMPT to mimic the Chozo tech, yeah, try again.

Them stealing her tech doesn’t necessarily mean they don’t have the capacity to improve it,

Yeah dude that's why they improved the Plasma Beam? Screw Attack? Speed Booster? Etc. And the inverse is true, if they had the the capabilities to improve it, they also wouldn't be so far behind, just take a look at the Federation, they got their hands on Samus tech, and the best they could do is mimic it, nothing to say magnifying it by magnitudes like you're trying to say about this backwater faction that just got lucky.

having Samus’s tech by default increases their capabilities,

Yeah, it does. Because they got her tech. Nothing more, nothing less. Having her tech doesn't magically make them smarter or know how to **** with it beyond what every other civilization could.

and Samus’s tech has been improved by the Federation before (the PED Suit being notable). If there could be confirmation that Greed didn’t amp her gear significantly, I would accept that.

False, the PED suit wasn't the Federation improving Samus' tech, it was them adding a completely unrelated thing onto to that just so happened to be critical because it was phazon tech in a game filled with phazon. You're arguing something akin to "The federation added a gun to Samus' suit, so they improved the suit", no, they just added a ******* gun to it. The PED shit isn't even Samus exclusive, all the bounty hunters got one if memory serves kinda proving my point, all the PED is was extra fed equipment that Samus was using.
And no, that isn't on me lad, it's on you to prove the backwater faction that had to steal her tech in the first place could amplify her tech by literal magnitudes despite no such statement or even implication existing, this shit is on you to prove, because as far as I'm concerned, the very fact they explicitly state everything they're doing is thanks to Samus' tech and we straight up see that the moment the capsule, which mind you, they straight up say is thanks to the ice beam and the capsule isn't shown altered, and the moment it's taken everything ceases, is good enough and far more evidence that it's doing what they say it's doing, not all this other shit you're claiming.


Hell, Occam's Razer lad, you're spiting in the face of it.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Also off the top of my head didn't Samus ****** facetank the Ice Beam when used by the Facility? That kinda moots any point about "Oh it was amped!" Cause it'd scale anyway lol

 

[Chariot190]

Already brought it up, apparently it doesn't count because "it was only a tiny fraction of the output like a spark", even though that was never said and the fact the facility was outputting the calc's energy, every moment (Because don't forget, the calc isn't the total energy it used, that's how much energy the ice beam was doing every moment at a continuous, nonstop, rate) should be well enough proof that even if it was some sort of miniscule fraction, it would scale regardless even then

 

[thetechmaster36]

Don't really have anything to say that hasn't already been said by Chariot and others, so yeah, disagree FRA.

 

[JJSliderman]

Alright, can I get a link on the Federation giant tech being inferior for reference?

I guess the bomb and ice beam have some decent backing, but I still disagree with the Leviathans and Aether scaling, not enough good evidence has been provided for them in terms of Samus using basic attacks to convert energy or the leviathan cores being consumed.

And you can be blunt without saying a million f-bombs.

 

[Chariot190]

Play Federation Force. Actually don't, that game sucks, I wouldn't even wish that on my enemies.

Tbh I actually think you have a point with the power bombs (in a roundabout way, I think Samus' has the capabilities of making a planet busting power bomb using the capsule, and if she wanted, she could, just opts for the two smaller variety) and DS scales to Aether exploding either way, and Samus scales to that via Prime 3 bullshit regardless of how DS tanked it so again, either way.
Though I will say we should actually get a source for that Leviathan shit, we should source everything on the profile actually but that's more of a future project.

Nah I say ****, a lot, even while not being blunt. As long as I ain't insulting you personally don't pay it any attention.

 

[JJSliderman]

The thing is that tanking a planet bust is apparently not actually planet level, because she only tanked a small portion of that (her particles floated into the air before the dimension collapsed), so idk if DS can tank the full planet level impact. Although it was her particles that survived so her full durability would be a fair bit above that.

I guess I’ll look up the Federation Force cutscenes and the Greed Corps inferiority to Chozo, but that kinda stuff feels like it should be sourced due to how crucial it is for clarifying that Samus’s weapons are equal to those the Stars used. Still, my bad.

 

[Chariot190]

She tanked a collapsing dimension actually, surface area wouldn't actually matter here, it's not an explosion she tanked, it's more of an implosion, the literal exact opposite. If she tanked an exploding planet, yeah, we'd do inverse square law, multiplied by her cross sectional area, but that isn't what the feat is. And even if we did, DS was quite close to the would be epicenter, hell running some rough numbers, while actively lowballing it, the energy DS would take if we treated it like an explosion and applied inverse square law and shit, would still be 5-A (a handful of yottatons), and that isn't even needed here.

Literally isn't crucial, it's only "crucial" because you're making it crucial with made up rules and headcanon about the feat in the first place, if it actually was crucial I'd probably have went and got them myself, but given it's a complete nonfactor to the feat, it honestly doesn't matter.
And hell in most cases like with Warlock, the ball dude, missile dude, etc, we know for a fact it isn't amped by them at all, hell in the case of Warlock (the SMART dude of the corps) and the missile dude, they straight up seem to be inferior with the missile dude even being pointed out he's not using them to the fullest.

 

[JJSliderman]

Hmm, okay,
Well, ig if there’s more clarification about stuff like the Leviathans and Samus converting Aether energy with basic attacks then I’ll be satisfied.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I already made sure SomebodyData was notified, and Glass is busy with Castlevania stuff, but SD can mention the three Leviathan cores stuff.

I can also come back after work hopefully to go over everything if I'm not drowning by stress as usual as of late.

 

[JJSliderman]

Thank you.

 

[Theglassman12]

I'm convinced you didn't actually read the chapter as nothing in the chapter remotely backs up your point so I'm not going to bother with this point.

The greed is nowhere near comparable, they don't evolve a weapon or technology to a far greater extent like the Ing does, which happens every single time they possess anything, also helps the fact that again, Samus tanks those amped power bombs all the time in the fight with the power bomb guardian, so she scales easily.

Prove his body is incapable of doing so, because him absorbing the planet's energy in its first form tells me otherwise. If you're not going to prove this at all and rely on headcanon then this revision isn't going to pass.

And when exactly did we have HDE chozo? Like at all? At this point you're grasping at straws since we never had that on their pages.

 

[JJSliderman]

I remember that HDE Chozo was something planned to be added in a revision (think it was said during a Yhwach vs Dark Samus match).

I don’t know why it has to be proven he didn’t absorb all the energy of the planet when, you cut off his connection to the energy pretty early in the fight. I feel like it has to be proven he did absorb it all instead, especially since the planet isn’t unstable while he’s tapping into the energy at any point.

If the Greed didn’t upscale the tech that’s one thing, but saying that Samus can tank amped power bombs from one source and then equating that to her being able to tank amped power bombs from any source is kind of wrong. Not all amps are the same.

I did read the ice beam chapter, it’s just that the natural response to seeing that the capabilities of a weapon were expanded from being able to freeze a small area to being able to freeze over an entire Star, when the beam hasn’t been shown to do anything on that scale anywhere else, is that the beam was amplified. And the point of her tanking a small bit of the beam’s output shouldn’t be grounds for full scaling by itself but that’s a moot point if it wasn’t amped.

 

[Theglassman12]

It’s not in their page so it’s a moot point to bring up a random matchup.

you literally see the Emperor Ing absorb the planet’s energy before the fight. Also again, the Ing is at a do or die situation, there’s no reason for the emperor to not use the full power of the planet when failing to stop Samus results in the death of the entire dimension.

Again, Greed is not comparable to Ing who has shown far superior feats of upgrading tech and weaponry to the point they’re beyond even space pirates, the same organization who’s entire mission is to modify weapons to rule the universe.

again, headcanon and not proven it was amped. Give me a scan that says the ice beam was amped. If you don’t give me actual evidence and will just repeat the same stuff over and over again I will close this thread, especially considering a lot of people are in disagreement here.

 

[Chariot190]

I did read the ice beam chapter, it’s just that the natural response to seeing that the capabilities of a weapon were expanded from being able to freeze a small area to being able to freeze over an entire Star, when the beam hasn’t been shown to do anything on that scale anywhere else, is that the beam was amplified. And the point of her tanking a small bit of the beam’s output shouldn’t be grounds for full scaling by itself but that’s a moot point if it wasn’t amped.

Except you fail to realize that the freezing of the star IS the Ice Beam's feat. Like bruh, you're going "the ice beam has no feats of that caliber" without realizing that this VERY FEAT IS a feat of this caliber for it.

Also again conflating range and AP/Potency.

 

[JJSliderman]

My point was never that the Emperor didn’t absorb the energy, he did. My point was that you can’t prove he absorbed all of it. Just because it was a do or die scenario doesn’t mean he could magically change the limits of his body to make it so he could release more energy at a time, or draw the maximum amount of energy into him. Unless it was said he absorbed all the energy into him (which is probably not true), burden of proof should be on the side claiming he did absorb all the energy, not the side that claims he absorbed only a piece of it (which has more evidence).

I’m okay with the idea of the Greed being less advanced than the Ing, I just don’t like the general idea that Samus tanking amps from one source means she can do the same against all amps.

Also ngl the Ing don’t even really seem that much more impressive at using Samus’s abilities, the bomb guardian uses regular bombs, the power bomb guardian just shoots power bombs that look very similar, the Boost Guardian seems to move at a comparable pace to the Boost Ball, etc.

I guess I’d just like some ironclad proof that the Greed were less capable of enhancing Samus’s tech than something like the Ing.

 

[Chariot190]

I guess I’d just like some ironclad proof that the Greed were less capable of enhancing Samus’s tech than something like the Ing.

Other way around, it's on you to prove they could, actually better yet, prove that a backwater mishmash up space pirate and otherworldly faction dregs being comparable to a interdimensional race that's WHOLE gimmick is taking over tech and amplifying it, doing so to some of the best tech in the verse, to the point they could overthrow one of the 3 greatest races in the cosmos is more on you to prove.

 

[Chariot190]

the power bomb guardian just shoots power bombs that look very similar,

Why is most of your arguments based on "it LOOKS different/the same", in a verse where we know looks don't mean everything.
Hell I don't even disagree entirely with the power bomb shit (in a roundabout way anyway), but this is a nonargument.

 

[JJSliderman]

I mean how am I supposed to tell these are enhanced when they don’t look any different from the normal variants you get when you beat the bosses.

 

[Chariot190]

Hey that ain't my argument, I'm just saying that when basically EVERY ARGUMENT you've made is based on "Well it looks like this", in a verse where it looking like something means literally nothing, there might be a issue.

Though I will say, the Ing do have a precedence for taking over tech and ******* with it for their needs, that's actually for the most part, why the Luminoth got ******, they were borderline Chozo tier dudes with based mecha and tech against a army of shadow ******* that could completely assimilate said tech and turn it against them. They even took the Sanctuary Fortress, a whole military base. If the gimmick of them is taking in tech, assimilating it, and amping it, Glass might have a point.
But I low key agree with you on the power bomb point (again, in a roundabout way, I think Samus scales to it still, but not in the way being proposed).

 

[JJSliderman]

Well yeah I have seen Ing amp tech stuff before in the form of Ingsmashers, and the like. The amps to Samus’s tech just didn’t appear as tangible.

 

[JJSliderman]

And even if we did, DS was quite close to the would be epicenter, hell running some rough numbers, while actively lowballing it, the energy DS would take if we treated it like an explosion and applied inverse square law and shit, would still be 5-A (a handful of yottatons), and that isn't even needed here.

Do you have that 5-A calc on hand actually.

 

[Chariot190]

Not really, I just ran some basic numbers in a calculator, assuming she was a ridiculous distance away from the epicenter, then multiplied by half her body surface, which I got to be close to 2m (Makes sense given how bulky she is), got like 4-5 yottatons durability which is like yeah probably, the full yield is magnitudes higher, kinda goes to show no matter what you do, that shit is planetary. I didn't save it though because this doesn't actually work because that is the explosion formula, she didn't take an explosion, she took a collapse/implosion thing, the formula straight up doesn't work, I was giving you an example on what it would be IF IT WAS an explosion as that's what you were calling it.

 

[JJSliderman]

Ah okay.
I guess I’ll wait on the Leviathan sauce then

 

[JJSliderman]

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[JJSliderman]

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[JJSliderman]

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[JJSliderman]

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[JJSliderman]

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[SomebodyData]

Dark Samus never absorbed three leviathans. I'm guessing that the notion is just a misremembered spin on PED Samus absorbing the Phazon of the three Leviathan guardians in Prime 3?

EDIT: And I guess Dark Samus absorbed Tallon IV's Leviathan core back when she was a Tallon Metroid.

 

[JJSliderman]

Well that kinda stings.

I guess I feel a little less comfortable with the leviathan scaling then.

I guess just wondering, is there a source that says Samus absorbed Aether energy with basic attacks as opposed to just transferring it to the transfer module.

 

[JJSliderman]

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[SomebodyData]

Well what's the issue with the Leviathan scaling? As far as I can tell, Dark Samus absorbing the Leviathan core when she was a Tallon Metroid would still scale to other Metroids- never mind the Leviathan having fallen directly on Tallon IV as well as Aether and the other Prime 3 planets.

No. However, the transfer module just allows Samus to transfer the energy to herself. It coincidently does have a battery but it does something entirely different.

"The Energy Transfer Module has a power core fueled by light energy. The presence of this energy protects the user from Ing possession.
Once you have siphoned all power from an Energy Controller on Dark Aether, you must return it to an Energy Controller on Aether."

 

[JJSliderman]

Well the Prime 3 ones weren’t matured, so it doesn’t seem fair to say they could produce the same level of power as the Tallon one. I wasn’t actually aware that Metroid Prime had absorbed the core, I might need to find the source for that.

So there’s no source the transfer module stores the energy directly, then?

 

[JJSliderman]

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[JJSliderman]

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[JJSliderman]

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[JJSliderman]

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[JJSliderman]

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[JJSliderman]

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