Possible big Metroid AP downgrades+tiny ability removal

[JJSliderman]

I really don’t wanna have to do this, but sometimes things need to be done.

Metroid as a verse currently has several Planet level feats, as well as a Small Star level one. However, after talking with others and examining all these feats myself, I don’t think they hold up that well, so let’s get into it.

The Super Power Bomb+Star Ice Beam

In the manga, Samus comes across Blast of the Seven Stars, who possesses Samus’s bomb capsule. Using it, he created a super power bomb that could blow up a planet, and as such it’s treated as if Samus can blow up planets with her basic power bomb. However, this bomb is a super power bomb; many times bigger than an average power bomb. In the past, some have written this off and stated regular power bombs could still downscale due to the nature of how “Super” weapons function in the series, namely how the Super Missiles are equal to 5 regular missiles, ergo the SPB is 5 regular power bombs. Unfortunately, the super weapon convention has only applied to one weapon, so it hardly qualifies as a universal standard. Moreover, the super prefix in Japanese for the Super Power Bomb is not the same as the Super Missile (Former is 超, latter is スーパー). Samus doesn’t even really tank the full blast of the bomb, and the character who did was immediately disintegrated. As such, this feat should not be used, as there’s no way to reliably gauge how strong a normal power bomb is compared to the super version.

On a similar note, the ice beam freezing a star also shouldn’t be counted, since the beam was amped by turning it into a full ice making facility, far larger than a standard ice beam, and when Samus got the beam back, it could barely hold back the sun’s temperature so her gunship could escape. So, the standard ice beam likely isn’t capable of the same feat as the ice facility based on showings.

Leviathans

So, I was told that Dark Samus has consumed three full-grown Leviathan cores at one point, but no source was given. If that could be provided, that would be extremely helpful.

Leviathans currently have a calc of their collision strength being planet level, and this has been used to scale to other characters because of Tallon Metroids tanking the impact. However, there’s no indication for how far away from the impact of the Leviathan, and surface area likely lowers the durability needed to survive such an impact immensely. And while one could bring up Samus destroying Leviathan cores in Prime 3, which would likely be as durable as the rest of the Leviathan, those Leviathans were not fully matured, and likely not as powerful, as the one scaled to Samus currently. As such, Samus scaling to full-grown Leviathans completely has little basis.

Dark Aether

Currently, Light Suit Samus is scaled to Dark Samus surviving the destruction/mass-energy conversion of Dark Aether, as well as fighting Emperor Ing amplified by the Light of Aether. However, like everything else, these are a little questionable.

Starting with Emperor Ing, he is indeed amped by the Light of Aether. However, there’s no indication that the portion he was using was the full power of Dark Aether, or even a significant fraction of it. His temporary log entry even stated that he is only siphoning it.

“Target is drawing energy from the unstable Energy Controller. Eliminating target's connection to the energy may be an effective strategy.”

Logbook entry
Bioscans indicate that this is the eldest, strongest Ing in the Horde, the alpha and the omega. It has absorbed enormous amounts of Phazon energy into its body, mutating itself in the process. Apparently this power is not enough for the creature, as it is now siphoning energy from the final Energy Controller.

To siphon is to drain away over time, and it also states in the log entry that the strategy is to outright cut off the connection the Emperor has to the light, stopping it from absorbing the energy further. As a result, there’s no way to tell how much of the energy the Emperor absorbed, and therefore no way to know if he scales to a significant portion of the Light of Aether’s power. Samus herself may have the Light Suit energized by the Light of Aether, but the same issue as Emperor Ing arises in that there’s no way to tell how much of the Light of Aether is powering Samus’s suit, since the Light is just energizing it, not absorbed completely into it.

Samus taking the Light of Aether into herself is likely not a feat either. She accomplished this with the use of the energy transfer module, a device specifically engineered to hold Aether’s light within it, akin to a chargeable battery pack. As such, Samus isn’t actually taking in any energy to herself, only into the module. And this makes sense, as Samus only is shown taking in planetary energy while holding the module (barring speedrun tech).

As for Dark Samus, what happened at the end of Prime 2 isn’t very clear, and it should not be automatically assumed Dark Samus survived the destruction of Dark Aether. Given how the scene is framed, it’s entirely possible Dark Samus’s particles were destroyed, and she simply regenerated using the Phazon within Aether’s atmosphere, a possibility even hinted on her profile with Low-Godly regen and the fact her essence was disrupted by Phazon before she dissipated. The vagueness of the event makes using this as a durability feat extremely sketchy.

Removing precog negation from Phazon

Simply put, the ability is exclusively from the North American Metroid Prime 1, and the lore was retconned by Nintendo to remove all references to the Chozo going beyond time and space, as well as the Hatchling lore with the precog negation not being in Trilogy. Since Trilogy retconned the only evidence for the ability, it should be removed, or maybe make a “North American” tab for DS to include it

Conclusion

Any 5-B non-self destruct rating, as well as Low 4-C and potentially High 6-A, may need to be scrapped for named important characters, unless evidence can be provided otherwise.

 

[Hellbeast]

chews popcorn

I am curious what rating would replace this tho

 

[JJSliderman]

I think they’d just go down to 6-B from the gunship durability scaling.

 

[Oleggator]

 

[Chariot190]

As for Dark Samus, what happened at the end of Prime 2 isn’t very clear, and it should not be automatically assumed Dark Samus survived the destruction of Dark Aether. Given how the scene is framed, it’s entirely possible Dark Samus’s particles were destroyed, and she simply regenerated using the Phazon within Aether’s atmosphere, a possibility even hinted on her profile with Low-Godly regen and the fact her essence was disrupted by Phazon before she dissipated. The vagueness of the event makes using this as a durability feat extremely sketchy.

Well it's 100% certain she was in the collapsing dimension, she was blown to ******* shit by Samus, and we see the gateways close and get blown up seconds after, there is no conceivable way for Dark to have escaped, though she did need to regenerate from it so there's that.

 

[JJSliderman]

Yeah, I agree Dark Samus was in there, I’m just not sure her particles actually were intact after that, and she could have just regenned without any physical component of hers remaining.

 

[Chariot190]

Looking at the scene, I think I'd have to disagree, we see a pile of blue particles floating around thousands of kilometers away from Aether, and then they pull together to reform Dark Samus.
Definitely just looks like stray bits of herself just eventually pulled themselves together.

 

[JJSliderman]

Aether has Phazon in its atmosphere, the pirates and Galactic Federation even show up between games to pick it up. It’s as likely that the ambient Phazon came together to reform DS.

 

[Chariot190]

That doesn't even look like Phazon, it's way darker, the exact color of DS' particles in other scenes actually, and that's not exactly in Aether's atmosphere, that's literally thousands of kilometers away, I could angsize it even.

Doing a quick angsize calc tells me DS was over 12000km away from the planet's atmosphere so I kinda doubt that actually.

 

[JJSliderman]

Well it was in the vicinity of other Phazon at least, considering it was close enough to said Phazon that the pirates picked it up along with some Phazon

 

[Chariot190]

Well it was in the vicinity of other Phazon at least, considering it was close enough to said Phazon that the pirates picked it up along with some Phazon

Based on? They could have picked up Phazon and DS still be well within the vicinity given they have devices to be able to pick up on Phazon from millions of kilometers away, it's not it it has a small scan distance and it's not like DS has to be within spitting distance of phazon to be found given she'd be on there way to the actual Phazon (not to mention she can fly interstellar distances).

Point is, we know she was in the collapsing dimension, and we know she is way out of the planet's atmosphere and unless we assume phazon is just laying around in the cold vacuum of space, I kinda doubt it, especially when her reforming and the particles left are just the same particles we see Dark turn into in numerous other scenes.
I'm inclined to think she just kinda survived it and that's that, occam's razor and all, we're gonna have to start making extra assumptions that may or may not be true to have otherwise, and given how far away she was from the closest Phazon source, I'm really not so sure that's a safe assumption.

I also want to add, Samus takes hits from the ice beam facility, and you probably should've done a better job looking for alternative feats and back up, it took me all of one second to think of a 6-A feat that they take zero damage from.

 

[JJSliderman]

Taking a hit from the facility doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the full brunt of the facility’s ice potency, it was a small offshoot beam that encased Samus in ice.

Dark Samus was also picked up by accident when they were collecting Phazon, I don’t really think they would have stopped to collect a few disparate particles so far off from the rest of the Phazon.

Moreover where would Dark Samus have gone even if her particles survived? The dimension she was in was erased from existence.

 

[Chariot190]

Yeah and? Honestly I disagree with your reasoning entirely on that, but no point arguing that when we see her take a hit from the facility's ice beam. There is no "small offshot", that's literally just conjecture, they sued the ice beam to freeze the surface of the star, they made it into a facility, Samus gets hit by that facility "empowered" ice beam. She lives.
Nothing more, nothing less. Unless you bring a statement saying "it was actually a small offshoot", then no, it wasn't, it just the same thing they used to freeze the surface as we have no reason to assume otherwise and every reason to assume so.

And why wouldn't they? She could've moved? Hell, she gives off Phazon readings too, they could've (and likely did) mistake her for phazon, doesn't mean she was in a pile of it.

Moreover where would Dark Samus have gone even if her particles survived? The dimension she was in was erased from existence.

Literally anywhere? She was spat back out to the main dimension once it collapsed, given it was, well, gone? Probably to where we know she went come Prime 3?

 

[JJSliderman]

The thing is that as soon as the facility stops focusing it’s ice energy on the sun, the heat immediately rushes out and melts the ice. The facility has to keep a constant stream on the sun and focus its energy to keep the sun frozen, so it diverting too much energy to freeze Samus likely would have stopped the freezing process on the sun.

If she could have moved then she probably could have just left to find new planets with Phazon instead of waiting randomly for a ship to appear. If her particles had survived, they could have simply reforged themselves like they did in Torvus and DS could have regained a corporeal form, but they did not, since DS was still in particle form when she was collected.

None of the other entities in Dark Aether were spat back into the main dimension, Samus probably wouldn’t have if she was in there.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Following for now, will be back. I I basically disagree with everything here.

 

[Newendigo]

The Super Power Bomb:

Eh, I sorta agree with the power bomb thing, tho are the different prefix for Super Power Bomb and Super Missile too different in meaning? If they still mean similar things then there could still be a bit of (questionably, tbf) scaling to be made.

Star Ice Beam:

As for the Freezing Star, while I do agree it should not scale normally to Samus (Only to her AP, that is) last I checked the feat was still valid due to the ice facility being created by the normal Ice Beam rather than the Ice Beam being amped by the facility itself. Granted now that I read it again Chrysalis sounds that he nearly froze the core first, later build the facility, and then froze the surface of the star with the refrigerator.

So huh, I guess you could say it's not scalable? Idk.

Dunno about most things related to Metroid Prime, but

Removing precog negation from Phazon:

It would be good if you could elaborate more on this point with scans and such.

 

[JJSliderman]

Chozo Lore

This page lists the Chozo Lore from Metroid Prime. These entries are all written on shimmering walls in Chozo-built areas. Using the Scan Visor, Samus Aran can translate the Chozo text and store it in her Logbook for later review. Significant portions of the original Chozo Lore from the first...

metroid.fandom.com

This is a list of all the Chozo Lore in Metroid Prime. The specific entry that mentions negating precognition (The Hatchling) is only in the original North American Metroid Prime, and scrubbed from the most recent version by Nintendo’s own choosing. The new lore discards all the extratemporal stuff from the Chozo and adds consistency to the speed of Phazon corruption to fall more in line with Prime 3.

For the Super Power Bomb, the only reason for power bombs to downscale is that one other weapon with Super in the name is 5 of its regular version. But Power Bombs and Missiles are not the same, and the fact there’s only one other instance of a “super” weapon doesn’t necessarily make it a universal system. The kanji for the PB example can also be read as “ultra”, differentiating it even more

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Power Bombs
I disagree with this. First of all, the Super Power Bomb was only formed using a single Power Bomb capsule; I know capsules are inconsistent as in most games they're worth 5 Power Bombs. But in the Hard Mode of Zero Mission, they're only 2 Power Bombs and in Metroid Dread, it's only one Power Bomb. Also, Power Bombs actually do use the same universal power source as her Arm Cannon and Super Missiles or even her Energy Tanks. Glassman brought up having the ability to use Power Bombs to restore her energy HP. And all of Samus arsenal is treated as a subpower of her Data Manipulation; so she's essentially a Digimon in that regard. Plus, even regular Power Bombs still have other feats. It's also extremely consistent that sitting on her own Power Bombs and absorbing the full impact to propel herself does 0 damage to her. Also, it being larger than a regular Power Bomb in terms of volume isn't really in argument as it just means Bishop has much less control over Samus Aran's arsenal. As the size can actually vary based on the mental energy control of the Power Suit's wearer. And even Bishop admits, the power is too great for him to properly control unlike Samus who has much greater precision.

Ice Beam
Aside from some people still trying to push for a standard prematurely that's just going to get rejected after a 300+ paragraph long research paper; which still has a lot of things to go over on how conductivity is still measurable in power in the form of watts or how fusion energy and laser cooling works. But actually what's being proposed is backwards information. It was never "Amplified" per say, the opposite was true. It was stolen from her and Chrysalis was using it to absorb energy, but it was the standard Ice beam that was doing all the work. And when Samus retrieved it, she was able to freeze the surface instantly when all it did was bounce of Joey's reflecting mirror. But SD can explain better than I can; all it did was raise the AoE one lowering pressure intensity measured in W/M^2.

Leviathans
While you are partially correct about the Tallon IV Metroids that due to being many time smaller than the Leviathans that Inverse Square Law would be important and I roughly recalculated this to an Island level+ durability feat for the Tallon Metroids. There are still other details to take into account. The Leviathans with planet level impact still have their own durability feats in more matured forms. And Dark Samus being able to absorb 3 fully manifested Leviathans would make her at least 3 times stronger than them, which Varia Suit Samus still matches. But regardless, there's also Chozo Defense Cannons powerful enough to destroy Leviathan Cores. And various bosses are immune to the potency of those Defense Cannons, not to mention even the Tallon Chozo consider Tallon Metroids nigh indestructible despite having access to those Defense cannons.

Dark Aether
Okay, this is actually worded poorly on the profiles. It is not Dark Samus's durability but rather Light Suit Samus' Attack Potency is where this should be scaled off of. Samus in her Light Suit uses the Energy Transfer Model which is standard equipment for that suit to perform the feat. It was her own basic attacks that transmuted the entire planet to mass energy, and thus it's still her own attacks that are Low 4-C. Dark Samus would still have Low 4-C durability due to withstanding a multitude of LS Samus's attacks, but the pages need to be reworded.

As for the following Log Book Entry, I think it's more or less resolved when treated as LSS's AP rather than DS's Durability.

Cosmic Awareness Chozo stuff
Actually, they mean the same thing but word it differently. And actually the North American section is actually a more recent translation based on the remakes of Metroid Prime Trilogy. The European version actually uses most of the same stuff as the Gamecube versions. Also, when it comes to translations, we usually consider the most recent remakes/ports as more reliable than the original localization. For example, for a bunch of really old NES and SNES RPGs, we consider the various remakes on GBA, DS, PSP, Steam, Iphone or Nintendo Switch to all be more reliable than their originals. In fact, the most recent version of Prime Trilogy on the Wii U is actually more accurate to the original Japanese. Plus, even the European version describes Chozo as knowing the Providence of the Universe. But still, the European lists are outdated compared to the North American section.

So in other words, they're all staying.

 

[JJSliderman]

1. The Super Power Bomb was basically an amplified Power Bomb, I believe the one using it says he modified the capsule to turn it into the Power Bomb we see in the chapter. It coming from a single capsule doesn’t really mean anything if that one capsule was still modified to increase its potency, and power bombs aren’t really shown to have the same degree of potency anywhere else. Then having the same energy system doesn’t necessarily make the super=X regular argument work for PBs, especially when the super used for the bombs is a different kanji than the one for super missiles. I haven’t seen anything indicating that those with more control can shrink or expand the size of their weapons, and generally bigger versions of the same weapon are going to do more damage unless otherwise specified.

2. The Ice Beam just quantifiably has inferior feats to the ice facility. The latter could easily freeze the entire surface of the Star, the former could barely carve a path through the sun to the surface. Their potency is not the same.

3. Again, have not seen any evidence for DS consuming leviathan cores, so if that has happened, share it please. I also have not seen any durability feats for the specific Leviathans that Samus destroyed that put it on the same tier as the matured Tallon one, unless there’s a calc for the Elysia/Bryyo/Pirate Homeworld seeds that isn’t present. I think a lot of people would naturally come to believe that a less mature and less grown version of something would not be as powerful if everything else was the same, and the cannon that destroyed the Leviathan seed was only destroyed a non-mature one. If the cannon had destroyed a mature seed then I would accept that.

4. How is it Samus’s basic attacks doing it? She’s only capable of doing this when equipped with the Transfer module, the Transfer module that was designed to hold the planetary energy. The fodder Ing sent to get the planetary energy and possessed an Alpha Splinter was holding the energy controller, and I sort of doubt that it was Low 4-C as well.

5. If we look at the lore from Prime Trilogy, the most recent version, there is no reference to either the Chozo going beyond space and time, or Phazon negating precognition, outside of the line about the will of the Chozo not bound to a single dimension and being shapeless (which kinda just screams metaphor), and the line about the future being cloudy and veiled in shadows, which is less solid negation and more possibly the Chozo failing to accurately predict things

 

[Chariot190]

The facility powered Ice Beam hit samus, the facility powered Ice Beam is freezing the sun. There was never a statement saying it has to focus ALL it's energy on the sun or the majority of it, and there was never anything saying the two beams weren't similar. Furthermore, if you want to argue things like "well most of the energy is being used to keep the sun frozen", which is NEVER said anywhere, why the hell wouldn't we just assume that it scales to Samus anyhow? If it's a matter of ENERGY being used, and that energy is coming from the Ice Beam capsule, like a battery, which is exactly what's happening, why would we assume Samus can't output that same energy using the literal exact same device? Given reminder, the capsule is empowering the facility, the most you could really argue is that Samus has less AOE to the facility, not really less power.
But ignore that for a moment, it doesn't matter, you're conflating the sun thawing out after it was destroyed to mean it was using most of its energy to do so, that isn't exactly true, what actually was needed was for it to be kept a constant stream of it to freeze the sun, because the sun's core was still unthawed and would just do what sun's do, heat up, continue nuclear fusion, and melt the frozen surface, THAT, is why it was continually being used. That doesn't mean the beam Samus was struck which is using the same power source and is for all intents and purposes the same exact thing that froze the sun, isn't the same potency as the shit freezing the sun, because it is, saying otherwise is complete conjecture and is never going to cut it.
Samus took like a second of the ice beam energy, ergo, she's equal to 1 second (or whatever amount, you get my point) of the total energy being used to freeze the sun. Which is about the same energy as the calc given we know it has to do it constantly and is thus applying that total energy over a constant as if it wasn't it would unthaw even if it was being used, basic science there.

Hard disagree with tossing this ice beam feat, it scales either way, only way you could say it doesn't is by just making unbased presumptions that really isn't supported by anything, at that point that seems to be less arguing because the feat is faulty and wrong and more tossing it just because. Not that it matters, they have a continental feat from that very same manga.

If she could have moved then she probably could have just left to find new planets with Phazon instead of waiting randomly for a ship to appear. If her particles had survived, they could have simply reforged themselves like they did in Torvus and DS could have regained a corporeal form, but they did not, since DS was still in particle form when she was collected.

I mean, so? Like it or not we know she CAN move and she CAN fly through space, this isn't even a subject of debate, she straight up can do it and does it a **** TON in Prime 3 (In fact didn't she do it before Prime 2 too?) And you're saying she waited, but did she? Do we even know how long the pirates took to come by? For all we know they showed up right after given Pirates tend to **** around. Regardless, this doesn't change the fact that we see Dark Samus reform, she's literally tens of thousands of kilometers away from the planet's atmosphere which is the thing stated to have phazon, meaning no, she didn't siphon phazon from the atmosphere to heal because she wasn't anywhere near it, we see DS reform from particles of which are the very same particles we see DS split into in a multitude of other cutscenes (which honestly should end the debate there, it's literally just the same stuff). And you mention Torvus but that wasn't exactly fast, and not to mention, whatever damage she took there I would assume is nowhere close to that of which she took at the end (and if it was, well they'd scale anyway for applying similar damage) so not exactly a fair comparison
And actually you might have just shot yourself in the foot, if she was in particle form when she was collected, it means she was ******* with them and snuck in (Probably to take control of them, as we see she has done in Prime 3) Because we know for a fact she healed herself before being picked up by the pirates as we literally see her do it on screen with no pirates in sight.
Actually yeah, why are we even arguing this point? We know for a fact if she was in particle form, it's because she chose to be, as she had already healed into a humanoid state, as we see in the very scene this feat is based on?

None of the other entities in Dark Aether were spat back into the main dimension, Samus probably wouldn’t have if she was in there.

Because they all died lad. Hell they probably were spat out, just as microscopic pieces of nothing. They don't exactly have the means to come back from being turned into cosmic dust.

Anyway I agree with DDM
e̵x̵c̵e̵p̵t̵ ̵i̵ ̵d̵o̵ ̵f̵i̵n̵d̵ ̵t̵h̵e̵ ̵p̵o̵w̵e̵r̵ ̵b̵o̵m̵b̵ ̵f̵e̵a̵t̵ ̵a̵ ̵t̵a̵d̵ ̵s̵u̵s̵ ̵b̵u̵t̵ ̵e̵h̵,̵ ̵t̵h̵e̵ ̵r̵e̵s̵t̵ ̵i̵ ̵t̵h̵i̵n̵k̵ ̵i̵s̵ ̵l̵e̵g̵i̵t̵

 

[Chariot190]

2. The Ice Beam just quantifiably has inferior feats to the ice facility. The latter could easily freeze the entire surface of the Star, the former could barely carve a path through the sun to the surface. Their potency is not the same.

That's a AOE thing lad, nothing to do with potency, in fact that is LITERALLY why we use potency on this wiki, instead of like destructive capacity like the OBD does, AOE/Range doesn't always inherently reflect the potency.
And that's technically not even true, the facility feat IS the ice beam's feat.

 

[JJSliderman]

If the Ice Beam was truly equal to the facility I don’t think Samus would have struggled that much to barely protect the ship, given how easily the facility froze over the entire star.

 

[Chariot190]

Again conflating range with potency. Second, struggled? I'd have to disagree, especially given she, ya know, succeeded. She used the Ice Beam to scatter it around the ship to protect themselves to escape the sun, it was never said "oh shit i can barely do this" or "oh shit my ice beam cant overcome this temperature", literally all that was said was "oh shit our only chance is to use the ice beam to scatter it off the knuckles".

Where in this do you get her ice beam somehow lacked the same potency, temperature or the like? Because nothing there actually says it, at BEST you could argue she lacks the same AOE, which is like, ok yeah I can see that, but we know for a fact the facility and her Ice Beam have the same exact same energy and potency, suggesting otherwise goes against everything we know.

Plus besides, her goal was to actively not freeze the star. It's why they went there.

Also doesn't change the fact she took a hit from the facility ice beam so no matter how you slice this.

 

[JJSliderman]

The facility powered Ice Beam hit samus, the facility powered Ice Beam is freezing the sun. There was never a statement saying it has to focus ALL it's energy on the sun or the majority of it, and there was never anything saying the two beams weren't similar. Furthermore, if you want to argue things like "well most of the energy is being used to keep the sun frozen", which is NEVER said anywhere, why the hell wouldn't we just assume that it scales to Samus anyhow? If it's a matter of ENERGY being used, and that energy is coming from the Ice Beam capsule, like a battery, which is exactly what's happening, why would we assume Samus can't output that same energy using the literal exact same device? Given reminder, the facility is empowering the capsule, the capsule is empowering the facility, the most you could really argue is that Samus has less AOE to the facility, not really less power.
But ignore that for a moment, it doesn't matter, you're conflating the sun thawing out after it was destroyed to mean it was using most of its energy to do so, that isn't exactly true, what actually was needed was for it to be kept a constant stream of it to freeze the sun, because the sun's core was still unthawed and would just do what sun's do, heat up, continue nuclear fusion, and melt the frozen surface, THAT, is why it was continually being used. That doesn't mean the beam Samus was struck which is using the same power source and is for all intents and purposes the same exact thing that froze the sun, isn't the same potency as the shit freezing the sun, because it is, saying otherwise is complete conjecture and is never going to cut it.
Samus took like a second of the ice beam energy, ergo, she's equal to 1 second (or whatever amount, you get my point) of the total energy being used to freeze the sun. Which is about the same energy as the calc given we know it has to do it constantly and is thus applying that total energy over a constant as if it wasn't it would unthaw even if it was being used, basic science there.

Hard disagree with tossing this ice beam feat, it scales either way, only way you could say it doesn't is by just making unbased presumptions that really isn't supported by anything, at that point that seems to be less arguing because the feat is faulty and wrong and more tossing it just because. Not that it matters, they have a continental feat from that very same manga.



I mean, so? Like it or not we know she CAN move and she CAN fly through space, this isn't even a subject of debate, she straight up can do it and does it a **** TON in Prime 3 (In fact didn't she do it before Prime 2 too?) And you're saying she waited, but did she? Do we even know how long the pirates took to come by? For all we know they showed up right after given Pirates tend to **** around. Regardless, this doesn't change the fact that we see Dark Samus reform, she's literally tens of thousands of kilometers away from the planet's atmosphere which is the thing stated to have phazon, meaning no, she didn't siphon phazon from the atmosphere to heal because she wasn't anywhere near it, we see DS reform from particles of which are the very same particles we see DS split into in a multitude of other cutscenes (which honestly should end the debate there, it's literally just the same stuff). And you mention Torvus but that wasn't exactly fast, and not to mention, whatever damage she took there I would assume is nowhere close to that of which she took at the end (and if it was, well they'd scale anyway for applying similar damage) so not exactly a fair comparison
And actually you might have just shot yourself in the foot, if she was in particle form when she was collected, it means she was ******* with them and snuck in (Probably to take control of them, as we see she has done in Prime 3) Because we know for a fact she healed herself before being picked up by the pirates as we literally see her do it on screen with no pirates in sight.
Actually yeah, why are we even arguing this point? We know for a fact if she was in particle form, it's because she chose to be, as she had already healed into a humanoid state, as we see in the very scene this feat is based on?



Because they all died lad. Hell they probably were spat out, just as microscopic pieces of nothing. They don't exactly have the means to come back from being turned into cosmic dust.

Anyway I agree with DDM
e̵x̵c̵e̵p̵t̵ ̵i̵ ̵d̵o̵ ̵f̵i̵n̵d̵ ̵t̵h̵e̵ ̵p̵o̵w̵e̵r̵ ̵b̵o̵m̵b̵ ̵f̵e̵a̵t̵ ̵a̵ ̵t̵a̵d̵ ̵s̵u̵s̵ ̵b̵u̵t̵ ̵e̵h̵,̵ ̵t̵h̵e̵ ̵r̵e̵s̵t̵ ̵i̵ ̵t̵h̵i̵n̵k̵ ̵i̵s̵ ̵l̵e̵g̵i̵t̵

I’m not assuming the beam can output the same energy because the beam was clearly enhanced into an entire facility to do the freezing, and the beam isn’t as casual freezing the sun as the facility was, and the beam being shut off almost immediately caused the sun to reheat, so clearly the beam was necessary to keep on the sun constantly to stave off the melting.

The beam hitting Samus is the equivalent of an electric spark flying off a laser cannon shot and hitting a target, that shouldn’t mean the target scales to the full power of the cannon, especially when Chrysalis didn’t even seem like it was putting all its effort into firing that single blast, as opposed to the sun freezing, which was the main objective.

How could Dark Samus move if she was just a mess of particles. And we do know the pirates didn’t show up right after DS reformed, because they only showed up after another ship from the Galactic Federation came to Aether and collected a surplus of Phazon, and the two ships never met each other. I think you’re getting too caught up on the atmosphere line as well, I meant more just the space surrounding Aether in its general vicinity.

I don’t really think DS would be ******* with the pirates considering she was really badly injured and seemingly couldn’t regenerate her body fully in that secret ending. And if she could by the time the pirates showed up, I don’t think she would have stayed behind, she had no way of knowing the pirates had Phazon on board conclusively and would have had to just guess, rather than just doing what she did after Prime 1 and teleporting to a new planet. Phazon can also be multiple colors and both DS’s particles and regular Phazon can be a dull blue hue. What we see in the secret ending is also not DS in her full humanoid form, but rather an incorporeal facsimile.

 

[Newendigo]

I disagree with this. First of all-

You are using games mechanics based off game difficult modes that you yourself say aren't consistent, and where is the amount of bombs the capsules are ever stated to give in the manga? You also complety ignored his point over the kanji.

"Universal Power System" means nothing here, Samus is not creating the Super Power Bomb by converting data into something else, it was done by a villain through unknown means. There is not a direct backscaling line that is not based off pure assumptions. And you better post those feats for the regular Bombs.

Aside from-

Has not been rejected, the paper has not even come out yet, doesn't matter. Watts are not even fully translatable to the normal joules of work, kinetic energy and potential energy anyway, the former is a measurment of power input like bateries and output like lightning, while the latter is a expression of physical force due to the motion of an object.

 

[JJSliderman]

Bump

 

[Theglassman12]

Yeah no the ice beam being amped by the station is blatantly wrong when the reverse is stated, so I don't see the reason for this to be removed when it's a feat of the ice beam, not the facility.

The power bombs have been amped before, The Power Bomb guardian, much like every single guardian in Prime 2 with Samus' equipment, are supercharged to the point of doing things that normally isn't achievable, and Samus can tank those power bombs to the face.

As for the leviathan, It's been a while since I've seen/touched prime 3 so I can't comment on the cores, but the impact crater you literally have creatures in the impact crater, metroids not included, so they would have to be in the impact itself since they don't live anywhere else on Tallon IV.

You do realize the Emperor Ing siphoning the energy of the planet is proof he's being amped by the energy right? Also it is the full power of Dark Aether as the moment Samus took in the energy the entire planet starts to collapse. As for your Light Suit argument, She was blessed by the Luminoth to take the light of aether, something she was collecting throughout the entire game and channeled into their own sky temple. The moment she finished and got back to the temple she gave all of their energy back, hence her reverting back to varia suit. Also Dark Samus not being in Dark Aether when it collapsed makes no sense when we literally see her dissipate in the atmosphere and she couldn't go through the portals at all.

As for the chozo lore part, they don't retcon this at all, I've checked the lore and they still mention their visions being cloudy to them despite their efforts against Phazon.

 

[JJSliderman]

I don’t think there’s any proof the reverse was stated for the ice beam, if there is then please share it.

Power bombs being amped elsewhere doesn’t mean Samus can deal with power bombs amped by any other character in the series, the Greed Corps could just be better at amping power bombs than the power bomb guardian (which is shown by how the SPB was planet busting and the power bomb guardian wasn’t).

Okay fair enough, I do think the yield would be a little lower still because of the surface area issue.

He is amped by the energy, I didn’t dispute that. My point was that there’s no proof he was being amped by all the energy, since the main strategy is to cut off his connection to the energy before he absorbs it all. That, and just because he has access to all that energy doesn’t mean he can output it in its entirety at Samus, if he’s just drawing from it as an outside source. Actually, him not using all the energy is more likely since the planet wasn’t collapsing, meaning there was still energy left to sustain Dark Aether even while it was siphoned. Light Suit, same argument, just because she gave the energy back doesn’t mean all the energy was in the suit. And I never argued that DS wasn’t in DA, just that she was and that her particles were destroyed, causing her to regen in Aether’s atmosphere (although I’m reconsidering that point, but DS tanking the dimension destruction doesn’t necessarily mean planet durability).

And the Chozo visions being cloudy is less clearly defined as an aspect related to Phazon here, opening the possibility that it could just be a weakness of Chozo precog.

 

[Theglassman12]

Page 17 has the proof, they blatantly say "thanks to the ice beam" that they're able to freeze a star, not thanks to the facility the ice beam can freeze a star.

You mean the same Samus that can tank normal power bombs at point blank range with no damage while the amped ones don't oneshot her? Also when are the Greed Corp better than the Ing when the Ing can take in any and all technology and upgrade it further than before? Even weapons literally made to kill them?

Why would he not be using the energy when it's a literal do or die situation with the Ing as a whole? The moment Samus steals the energy from their dimension they all die. Again that's based off headcanon when we have numerous showings of Ing being able to work with outside sources as a part of their being, Samus' power ups being a prime example of this. The planet started to collapse once Samus takes it as she's using it for the light side of Aether, not the dark side, otherwise when she takes the light suit Aether would've collapsed the moment it did. Except that her returning all of the energy back from the light suit is that she had all the energy, otherwise why would the main reactor that harnesses the energy would be back to normal when she returns it all?

It being cloudy has everything to do with Phazon as they've been combating it for a while and right before the exposure to phazon they can see the future clearly, but afterwards they can't due to the effects Phazon has. Either way it's not a retcon.

 

[JJSliderman]

1. That doesn’t prove anything, it can easily mean “using the ice beam as a template, they upgraded it to suit their needs”

2. Okay, Samus can tank amped power bombs from the Ing. Unless you can prove the Ing and the Greed are directly comparable, this adds nothing.

3. Maybe just because his body was physically incapable of doing so, a laser can have access to an entire nuclear power plant of energy but it doesn’t mean it can fire out with that much power at one time. And if Samus was using all the light energy in the suit; then the planet wouldn’t be stabilized.

4. Alright fine I’ll give this one. But HDE for Chozo was def retconned

 

[Chariot190]

1. That doesn’t prove anything, it can easily mean “using the ice beam as a template, they upgraded it to suit their needs”

No it ******* doesn't, this is getting ridiculous, you're unironically making shit up now to suit your argument, that was never said, never implied, never shown, never anything, you are unironically arguing against everything we know. They say one thing, and here you are arguing that they actually said this other thing with a bunch of other stuff because you said so.
I don't say this much but this is ACTUAL headcanon.

And it wouldn't be a template regardless because the moment Samus takes the capsule it all goes to shit, it doesn't sputter out, it doesn't continue, confirming that the freezing was being done by the capsule, not "oh we made this thing using the capsule as a template lol", the Ice Beam was directly powering and causing everything.

 

[Chariot190]

Also

upgraded it

Dude it's the Greed Corps, they can't upgrade Chozo tech, they technologically way inferior to the Chozo, they had to steal Samus' tech directly, imagine if they could just nonchalantly upgrade the shit out of it like you're implying? If they had that capability why would they even bother, just make their own instead of doing a convoluted dangerous plan to steal shit that ended with them all dying.

 

[Newendigo]

Page 17 has the proof, they blatantly say "thanks to the ice beam" that they're able to freeze a star, not thanks to the facility the ice beam can freeze a star.

It says "Thanks to the ice beam, I can make an enormous refrigerator facility for the dominiun that can even freeze a star".

It sounds like more the action was done by the facility rather than the ice beam, as one can make an structurally similar sentence but with different context; "Thanks to Micheal, I got this new circular saw for my job in carpentry that can cut even the hardest of logs".

You mean the same Samus that can tank normal power bombs at point blank range with no damage while the amped ones don't oneshot her? Also when are the Greed Corp better than the Ing when the Ing can take in any and all technology and upgrade it further than before? Even weapons literally made to kill them?

We don't know how the guy with the Power Bomb ability made the Super Power Bomb tho, we can't say that they are better sure, but can't also say they are worse, we just don't know the method. You can't just powerscale technology from vastly different species and say a>b like that, specially when you know very little of B.

 

[Chariot190]

It sounds like more the action was done by the facility rather than the ice beam, as one can make an structurally similar sentence but with different context; "Thanks to Micheal, I got this new circular saw for my job in carpentry that can cut even the hardest of logs".

Yeah to bad that's a bad analogy and false equivalence, no offense.
A more apt analogy would be like "Thanks to Michael giving me his power, I could blow up a planet!", or something. And no, it was done by the Ice Beam, we know the Ice Beam was powering the facility (so it'd scale anyway), and we know the moment Samus takes the capsule back everything shuts down, because, as you could guess, the Ice Beam was powering everything. Honestly? Pretty sure the facility only exists so they COULD USE IT in the first place, not because they upgraded it or something, literally just a method to make use of the capsule given obviously you can't just hold the capsule out and shoot ice magic, you DO need a way to harness the capsule's energy. Samus has her suit and armcannon, they used a facility, doesn't change the fact the facility is powered by the ice beam and the freezing capabilities is entirely reliant and done by said capsule.

 

[JJSliderman]

I mean yeah, the ice beam being taken stopped the process, but that could just as easily be the magnification process working on the Star no longer having anything to magnify. There’s nothing that says the ice beam alone was doing everything and that the beam was completely unmodified in power. Yeah, it sounds unnecessary, but when these capsules are modified and increase in size without anything else changing, the bigger weapon is going to be superior.

The Chozo have incredibly advanced tech, but so did the Alimbics. It’s not like the Chozo are unrivaled in technical potency, or that Samus’s weapons haven’t been outclassed before. There should be a direct comparison of the Greed’s technical level vs the Chozo for this to be satisfactory.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

So, I was told that Dark Samus has consumed three full-grown Leviathan cores at one point, but no source was given. If that could be provided, that would be extremely helpful.

As someone who's played the Prime Trilogy more times than I can count, I also want to know the source for this. The only phazon core that Metroid Prime MAY have absorbed was the Tallon IV one, due to it becoming the new source of phazon on that planet.

 

[Chariot190]

I mean yeah, the ice beam being taken stopped the process, but that could just as easily be the magnification process working on the Star no longer having anything to magnify.

Yeah, it did, because it was powering the facility as a whole and its freezing capabilities was what allowed them to freeze in the first place.
Or maybe you're just making shit up and it stopped because the thing powering it all was taken, ya know, like everything indicates it does? And again, making shit up, it was never said or even implied to magnify it, you really think if it was magnifying it they wouldn't have said "we took your ice beam and are magnifying it using this facility!", or anything akin to that? Especially when they already went out of the way to drop an exposition regarding what's happening.

There’s nothing that says the ice beam alone was doing everything and that the beam was completely unmodified in power.

Except, ya know "wow thanks to the ice beam we could do this lol", you know what ISN'T said? Literally every single thing you've been arguing.

Yeah, it sounds unnecessary, but when these capsules are modified and increase in size without anything else changing, the bigger weapon is going to be superior.

Uh, you do know the Ice Beam capsule wasn't modified or changed in size right? Samus straight up rips it out of the dude's head. The capsule wasn't made larger, it was small enough to fit in her hand still. And I hope you realize how dumb an argument that is given Samus' tiny pea shooter is infinitely superior to other attempts at mimicking her tech, the Federation's attempts to copy her are drastically larger and more bulky all the while being inferior because they lack the technology to mimic it. If your argument is actually coming down to "it's bigger", stop, it's bad, it will never fly. Especially when we know that isn't the case.

The Chozo have incredibly advanced tech, but so did the Alimbics. It’s not like the Chozo are unrivaled in technical potency, or that Samus’s weapons haven’t been outclassed before. There should be a direct comparison of the Greed’s technical level vs the Chozo for this to be satisfactory.

Yeah dude, all of 3 races ever have rivaled the Chozo, Space Pirates and the Federation the two runner ups behind the big 3 (Of which the former is controlled by Chozo tech), are 100% explicitly not even close and never will be. Guess which of those 3 the Greed corps are? That was rhetorical, they're neither. And a direct comparison? That's easy, they needed to STEAL Samus' tech, they needed to steal Samus' old, outdated, Chozo tech and said tech was better than anything they had. Kinda odd how that works? Could it be because they aren't even close to the Chozo? The answer is of course.

Also nice rebuttal, you ignored half of what I said.

This is getting dumb dude, you're unironically making shit up and making unfounded assumptions to help your argument, you realize that if that's what you gotta do you may as well stop arguing it because it's never gonna pass if your entire argument is headcanon.
Like come the **** on. No matter how you slice it she scales to this shit, she even took a hit from the ice beam used by the enemy, regardless of your headcanon that says she doesn't scale because you say so.

Don't even reply unless you can bring an actual statement or line that says they empowered the ice beam somehow or they magnified it.

 

[JJSliderman]

Dude, calm down, no need to get heated.

I just think the ice beam being amped makes sense because the other weapons were amped like the bomb. I wouldn’t have to assume that if a source was provided saying that weapon size correlated to lack of control as opposed to a change in power level.

Them stealing her tech doesn’t necessarily mean they don’t have the capacity to improve it, having Samus’s tech by default increases their capabilities, and Samus’s tech has been improved by the Federation before (the PED Suit being notable). If there could be confirmation that Greed didn’t amp her gear significantly, I would accept that.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yeah I'm gonna have to disagree with this entire thing FRA.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Yeah I'm gonna have to disagree with this entire thing FRA.

^