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Possible Avatar AP Upgrade (Massive)

ProfessorKukui4Life

ProfessorKukui4Life

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Hello everyone. Im back here with another Avatar thread. One that might be very signifigant and am surprised was not brought up already. But first a few things-

For one, if things go as I have expected it to be, im highly certain this wouldnt be considered an outlier given its a level of AP used on almost a constant daily basis throughout the course of the series. In addition, given the feat, this would only count for the Avatars, Unalaq, Raava and Vaatu. NO ONE ELSE. But of course, it is up to the majority if it should be accepted or denied. That having been said, lets get started.

*Tier Upgrades and why:

Alright. Now to what exact tier Im making an argument for I am not entirely sure yet. However, from what I can take a glance at, I think the closest, if not, flat out tier I can suggest here would be 6-A or even High 6-A and i'll elaborate just why right below.

The first reason is actually very simple: Raava and Vaatu THEMSELVES are currently listed as such by our own standards. Quoted from Vaatus page:

"Likely Continent Level via environmental destruction at full power (he was going to cover the world in darkness and then reshape it, when he possessed Unalaq he nearly managed to do so)"

In all honesty....this shouldnt require that much explanation. Raava and Vaatu are the spirits who, when fused with Unalaq and the Avatars, explicity form and make up the avatar spirit and its power (Avatar State). In other words, they ARE the avatars power in its entirety. There isnt any logical reason whatsoever why they would suddenly become far weaker when fused with an Avatar, especially considering the Avatar State (the combined power of Raava/Vaatu and the respective Avatar host) is supposed to be the full strength an Avatar unleashes when in battle. (Forgive me for bringing up another verse but I feel its appropriate here) This is almost the exact same thing we did for Alien X. If Raava and Vaatu are legitmately allowed to be Tier 6, even at their peak, then the very same thing should apply to the Avatars that wield their power in an even better fashion, at least when in the Avatar States. Otherwise, if this wasnt the case at all and that these 2 really do grow much weaker, then Wan, Korra and Unalaq wouldnt have done fusion with the 2 spirits to form even weaker ones. And it wouldnt make much sense at all in this case given the roles Raava and Vaatu play in the Avatar Universe. In addition to this, Korra Wan and Unalaq have all shown to be able to rival the power of Raava/Vaatu without even first immediately needing their Avatar/Dark Avatar States:

1) Wan separating Raava and Vaatu from each other (while they were fighting) --> https://youtu.be/BidasDE1WUc

2) Wan harming Vaatu on his own (1:10) --> https://youtu.be/Ezcof8LO7cI

3) Unalaq destroying Raava --> https://youtu.be/Q5Ld8f7h3Dc

4) Korra (in her spirit form) matching the combined Unavaatu and purifying him without Raavas help in any way (1:15 onward) --> https://youtu.be/TsqVEg-AEjw

All of this shows the Avatars can somewhat compare to the spirits own power on their own. So when unlocking full power while in their Avatar States should put them higher than we give them credit for.


Now the second reason on the other hand is different but continues to stem from my above point. And it heavily involves Harmonic Convergence.

As we all know, Harmonic Convergence is the event where an allignment of the planets is made in space. And this is the exact same thing in the Avatar Universe, only except....somethings change.

In the Avatar World, Harmonic Convergance brings about the fusion of 2 portals connecting the human and spirit worlds. This results in a large rebound of enhanced spiritual energy, energy strong enough to cover and shift the energy of the entire planet (Some may know already where I'm going with this). Evidence as followed:

1) Seconds after it begins, the spirit energy formed by Harmonic Convergence quickly envelops the entire planet --> https://youtu.be/i1A8ejk-NE4

2) As shown here, the energy continues to cover the world the entire time of Harmonic Convergence until AFTER Korra and Raava start to re-fuse --> https://youtu.be/xuIBtt2DdbE

3) Korra confirms the planets own energy has been shifted by that of Harmonic Convergence and that she can sense it (19:07) --> https://youtu.be/JjHR6NeycnY

Of course, a calc may be needed to find the exact numbers, but its perfectly clear that this is a very high level of power unleashed (and considering Vaatu needed this level of energy to break free from the Tree of Time, showing already it surpasses his own power by a fair degree, you should see my point.)

The Avatar spirit is, well, very quite depedant on this energy. In fact, this very energy from Harmonic Convergence is what allows Raava and the Avatars to literally stay fused forever, keeping the Avatar Spirit existing. Same thing for Vaatu and Unalaq. Without it, both avatar spirits would never be able to stay fused and remain as strong as they are. This would show that the Avatar spirits not only maintain that level of power, but constantly possess it just so both individual souls remain forever fused. Furthermore, this energy is used whenever the Avatar goes into the Avatar State. Wan fusing with Raava unleashed the first AS with the energy he got from H.C. that boosted him. Same thing for Unalaq and Vaatu, who underwent the Dark Avatar State after fusing. Finally...

*Why its not an outlier:

Im aware that some might read this and immediately see it would be an outlier. While completely understandable, something must be remembered first. The Avatar constantly and quite literally uses this amount of power ALL the time. Keeping their spirits united with Raava/Vaatu and Whenever they go into the Avatar State. If this were only once or a few times, it could be argued. But this occurs in almost the entirety of the series, proving it is on a consistent legitimate basis.

That is all. Whether anyone agrees or disagreed I would like to hear thoughts on this for it has been eating at me for I dont even know how long.
 
Isn't the planetary alignment just what starts the Harmonic Convergence? Like, the alignment is the reason it happens at all.

Either way, what's the short version? The OP has a lot of unnecessary fluff.
 
I think their feats should be calced and they primary scale to Raava, Vaatu, Korra and Unalaq. I'm not sure about the Avatars.
 
Your bullet points are messy and hard to read. Please fix the structure to get more replies.
 
Honestly, the only part of this right now that I'm mainly concerned about is the Raava/Vaatu thing.

The H.C.'s spirit energy part is a whole other story that, while good, needs to be discussed more.
 
I think I wait for more input, but I am currently against an upgrade. Also: When exactly did Vaatu said that he would destroy the world or something like that ? From what I remember he just said that a new age would begin.
 
Hmm. Well first, we should see just HOW strong the Harmonic Convergence energy is first, which should be 6-A+.

Anyone like to calc this please?
 
Well this IS highlighted but incase he doesn't ever come could someone ask for his assistance here?

I am out at the moment and have little chances to reply here until I get home.
 
Also, assuming this is accepted for a second, would we need to treat those who fight Avatar State powered avatars as PIS? Like for instance, Zaheer and Kuviras machine?
 
The Avatar states could scale through i'm unsure, but i think Ozai and the other machines should not scale.
 
Yeah Ozai definitely wouldn't scale. He was only overwhelming base Aang. Once AS came in Ozai was getting stomped.

What about Kuviras spirit robot? Same thing?
 
I'm not sure that these robots built by normal humans/benders shoud scale to Raatu, Vaatu and their feats unless they are charged with the energy of the Avatars or Spirits.
 
"The first reason is actually very simple: Raava and Vaatu THEMSELVES are currently listed as such by our own standards. Quoted from Vaatus page" - As I said, where is the proof that they that powerful ?

"Raava and Vaatu are the spirits who, when fused with Unalaq and the Avatars, explicity form and make up the avatar spirit and its power (Avatar State). In other words, they ARE the avatars power in its entirety." - Seems wrong. They augment the power of the avatar, but they dont make 100 % of all its power. There is furthermore the argument that the massive power of the avatar state comes actually from all the previous incarnations (rendering Korra pretty weak after a new cycle was formed).

"If Raava and Vaatu are legitmately allowed to be Tier 6, even at their peak, then the very same thing should apply to the Avatars that wield their power in an even better fashion, at least when in the Avatar States." - IF and I doubt that.

"In addition to this, Korra Wan and Unalaq have all shown to be able to rival the power of Raava/Vaatu without even first immediately needing their Avatar/Dark Avatar States." - Sorry, but what ? Sepreating them is not at all a feat that shows that. All he did was distracting Raava, so that Vaatu could free himself. Later when Wan fought Vaatu he was pretty quickly overpowered by Vaatu and all he did was doing a little damage. He needed to merge with Raava to seal Vaatu and even then it was close. Unalaq destroyed Raava when he was already merged with Vaatu and Korra absorbed energy from the tree or something like that.

"As we all know, Harmonic Convergence is the event where an allignment of the planets is made in space." - Which happens all 10000 years.

"The Avatar spirit is, well, very quite depedant on this energy. In fact, this very energy from Harmonic Convergence is what allows Raava and the Avatars to literally stay fused forever, keeping the Avatar Spirit existing. Same thing for Vaatu and Unalaq. Without it, both avatar spirits would never be able to stay fused and remain as strong as they are. This would show that the Avatar spirits not only maintain that level of power, but constantly possess it just so both individual souls remain forever fused. Furthermore, this energy is used whenever the Avatar goes into the Avatar State." - You make a lot of assumptions that are based on nothing. Nothing you said is cofirmed by any statement made in the show. I agree that Wan, Korra and Unalaq used the power some energy from the portal to fuse together, but that energy doesnt come from them, she just channels energy and cant generate it.
 
Okay I just got back home. I'll start again.

For the first part, do not ask me please. I don't know exactly why Raava and Vaatu are rated as they are for that, I didn't upgrade them. All I know is they've been rated and accepted as that for a very long while here, which is why im using it here. So unless a CRT is made to discuss it there, it shouldn't be challenged.

Secondly, that isn't true. For one, the AP of the Avatar State is determined by the energy given off by both Raava/Vaatu and their respective avatar host. While obtaining skills and knowledge from previous avatars is most definitely a power of the AS, it is more a sub power of just gaining skills from past avatars. Just because, for example, Korra no longer has connection to her past lives, it doesnt mean the power of her own AS is any weaker than it usually is, she just cant call upon the past avatars knowledge. Same thing for Unalaq and Wan. Their Avatar states are no weaker than other avatars, the only difference here is one can access others experience and the other cant. And honestly, there is no evidence in-verse that an AS is dependant on its connection to other avatars. Otherwise if this wasnt the case, then Korra would have curbstomped Unalaq regardless of him fusing with Vaatu or Korra would have gotten weaker as the show progresses, which makes no sense. And two, it is very much true that Raava and Vaatu make up 100% of the avatars power, it is why they are able to do feats such as bend all 4 elements, energy bend, and so on. Even if not, they certainly make up a majority of their power, so the scaling would still work here.

Wan did not distract Raava. Both were clearly aware that Wan was their with them while also fighting at the same time. I dont see how this wouldnt at all be a feat, especially when no one before Wan could remotely do the same thing. Raava kept Vaatu like that for 10,000 years until Wan showed up to seperate them.

Even doing a bit of damage counts as a feat. We have quite a fair amount of people here rated where they're at by the same logic and of course Wan by himself is much much weaker than Vaatu. Still doesnt mean it wouldnt be a feat.

Being merged with Vaatu literally means nothing. He didnt use his Dark Avatar State to kill her, just his own power. Its fairly obvious the Avatar doesnt always tap into Raava/Vaatu to do literally everything.

Yes, energy that is very much unquantifiable and doesnt change this argument much unless we're suggesting 3-A/Low 2-C Korra here ofc.

It happens every 10000. So what?

Doesnt have to. We clearly see all of that happen as a requirement. Wan, Korra and Unalaq needing that energy to fuse with Raava/Vaatu is something outright shown to us and proven its needed for their spirits cannot remain fused without it. Wan nearly being killed after a point of letting Raava into his body supports this. And as far as the Avatar State goes, we clearly see Wan and Unalaq use the energy they got from the joint portals to go into AS, so I dont see how that is speculative.
 
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