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I agree with Kukui.
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Possible Avatar AP Upgrade (Massive)
- Thread starter ProfessorKukui4Life
- Start date
- 991
- 68
"So unless a CRT is made to discuss it there, it shouldn't be challenged." - You know that your upgrade partially relies on this, dont you ;D But yes, I make a CRT.
"The Avatar State is a defense mechanism, designed to empower you with the skills and knowledge of all the past Avatars. The glow is the combination of all your past lives, focusing their energy through your body." - Thats what Roku told Aaang.
"The strongest and most powerful ability that the Avatar can invoke is the Avatar State. This state was created when Wan permanently bonded with Raava by touching the energy coming through the spirit portal during the Harmonic Convergence in 9,829 BG. It allows the Avatar to channel vast cosmic energies and the knowledge of previous Avatars, granting them increased strength and the ability to perform especially powerful and extraordinary feats of bending." - And this is what the avatar wiki says.
I agree that the spirit and the human had to use the energy of the portal to fuse, but I dont see how you want to connect there tier and the energy of the planet or something like that.
"The Avatar constantly and quite literally uses this amount of power ALL the time. Keeping their spirits united with Raava/Vaatu and Whenever they go into the Avatar State." - No. The energy was needed to fuse them forever as Raava said herself (See here).
"If this were only once or a few times, it could be argued." - The Avatar has feats. Real feats, which have been calced to be around 7-C/7-B. You want to upgrade them based on scaling to Vaatu (We dont even know if his tier is justified) and some assumptions on the nature of the bond between Raava/Vaatu and the human.
I would agree to upgrade the Avatar if you would give me a real 6-C feat done by the Avatar.
Edit: Unalaq destroyed a heavily weakend Raava, just to clearify that.
"The Avatar State is a defense mechanism, designed to empower you with the skills and knowledge of all the past Avatars. The glow is the combination of all your past lives, focusing their energy through your body." - Thats what Roku told Aaang.
"The strongest and most powerful ability that the Avatar can invoke is the Avatar State. This state was created when Wan permanently bonded with Raava by touching the energy coming through the spirit portal during the Harmonic Convergence in 9,829 BG. It allows the Avatar to channel vast cosmic energies and the knowledge of previous Avatars, granting them increased strength and the ability to perform especially powerful and extraordinary feats of bending." - And this is what the avatar wiki says.
I agree that the spirit and the human had to use the energy of the portal to fuse, but I dont see how you want to connect there tier and the energy of the planet or something like that.
"The Avatar constantly and quite literally uses this amount of power ALL the time. Keeping their spirits united with Raava/Vaatu and Whenever they go into the Avatar State." - No. The energy was needed to fuse them forever as Raava said herself (See here).
"If this were only once or a few times, it could be argued." - The Avatar has feats. Real feats, which have been calced to be around 7-C/7-B. You want to upgrade them based on scaling to Vaatu (We dont even know if his tier is justified) and some assumptions on the nature of the bond between Raava/Vaatu and the human.
I would agree to upgrade the Avatar if you would give me a real 6-C feat done by the Avatar.
Edit: Unalaq destroyed a heavily weakend Raava, just to clearify that.
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I have to agree with Meosos, I don't support upgrading Avatar States to 6-A based on these assumptions.
However, there is a Calc that puts Avatar State Aang at Island level which was accepted on the OBD.
- Avatar State Aang merged w/Ocean Spirit wave: 89.784 gigatons (Avatar The Last Airbender)
However, there is a Calc that puts Avatar State Aang at Island level which was accepted on the OBD.
- Avatar State Aang merged w/Ocean Spirit wave: 89.784 gigatons (Avatar The Last Airbender)
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- Thread starter
- #44
For one, that statement was made long before LoK was a thing and revealed the origin of the avatars power, and no Avatar other than Wan and Korra knew of Raavas existence and origins, so that statement might not even hold true anymore. Second, again, yes the AS combines the skills and knowledge of all the avatars into one but that doesn't mean the AS's AP is solely dependant on those skills and knowledge. And no evidence in verse proves this. Otherwise again, Korra would have very easily defeated Unalaq and Vaatu when she still had her connection to her past lives. And she would have gotten weaker from then on due to only getting a power Boost from Raava in the AS, which makes no sense.
Once again, the knowledge of all avatars in that wiki statement is just depicted as a sub power. The Avatar in the AS can still access those "cosmic energies" even if they don't obtain their past lives experiences. Not to mention this statement further supports the Avatar State being created from the energy admitted from Harmonic Convergence as ive said.
Yes and? That energy would still linger within the AS so it would never unfuse Raava from her host. Or at the very least, it would be generated through the Avatar State as already mentioned.
Because its nonsensical to not allow the Avatars to have the same level of power and more as Raava and Vaatu do. That would imply Vaatu and Raava weakened themselves upon fusing and had the intention to do so, which for multiple reasons is ridiculous.
Edit: Also where is the evidence that Unalaq killed Raava when she was weakened?
Raava only got weakened in the past for Vaatu breaking the balance between light and darkness. Once Vaatu was sealed that wasn't the case anymore.
Once again, the knowledge of all avatars in that wiki statement is just depicted as a sub power. The Avatar in the AS can still access those "cosmic energies" even if they don't obtain their past lives experiences. Not to mention this statement further supports the Avatar State being created from the energy admitted from Harmonic Convergence as ive said.
Yes and? That energy would still linger within the AS so it would never unfuse Raava from her host. Or at the very least, it would be generated through the Avatar State as already mentioned.
Because its nonsensical to not allow the Avatars to have the same level of power and more as Raava and Vaatu do. That would imply Vaatu and Raava weakened themselves upon fusing and had the intention to do so, which for multiple reasons is ridiculous.
Edit: Also where is the evidence that Unalaq killed Raava when she was weakened?
Raava only got weakened in the past for Vaatu breaking the balance between light and darkness. Once Vaatu was sealed that wasn't the case anymore.
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The Professor's arguments seem solid to me. I agree with this upgrade
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Like Matthew, I also prefer to scale from the actual calculated feats. 6-A or higher seems far too much for both Unalaq, Aang, and Korra, and I am uncertain why Vaatu and Raava are considered to be that high in the first place.
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Yes, I also agree it may be outlierish.
The 6-C feat seems legitimate but also think Aang was higher than in normal Avatar State during it.
The 6-C feat seems legitimate but also think Aang was higher than in normal Avatar State during it.
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Hmm i'm with Iapitus, the Professor's arguments seem good enough for me but i'll wait to see what others think.
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- Thread starter
- #52
I'm also good with a 6-C rating too btw if all else fails. However, with all due respect I still fail in the end to see how this would be an outlier.
If the energy the Avatar uses, such as the AS from Harmonic Convergence's energy, is considered that high and the Avatars use it on literally a constant basis, that would show consistency with its usage and we have enough evidence to supoort the AS being created from Harmonic Convergence energy. But we should at least wait on Darkanine to calc this first to see exactly what to deal with.
In addition, it still makes absolutely no sense for the Avatars to not be at the same level or higher as Raava/Vaatu (assuming they stay at their tiers anyway), as well as it not making sense for Raava and Vaatu to weaken themselves by a large degree upon fusing. So unless they are getting downgraded in the end (there is a thread talking about this actually but its not going anywhere really), the Avatars, Raava and Vaatu should all be in the same exact tier as one another.
EDIT: Also there is another feat to help support this upgrade.
Vaatu explicitly needed the energy of Harmonic Convergence to break free from his imprisonment in the Tree of Time. A prison the Avatar created from combining the AS and 4 elements. That would result in the Avatars prison being so strong that Vaatu needed Harmonic Convergences power to get out, otherwise he'd be trapped permanently.
If the energy the Avatar uses, such as the AS from Harmonic Convergence's energy, is considered that high and the Avatars use it on literally a constant basis, that would show consistency with its usage and we have enough evidence to supoort the AS being created from Harmonic Convergence energy. But we should at least wait on Darkanine to calc this first to see exactly what to deal with.
In addition, it still makes absolutely no sense for the Avatars to not be at the same level or higher as Raava/Vaatu (assuming they stay at their tiers anyway), as well as it not making sense for Raava and Vaatu to weaken themselves by a large degree upon fusing. So unless they are getting downgraded in the end (there is a thread talking about this actually but its not going anywhere really), the Avatars, Raava and Vaatu should all be in the same exact tier as one another.
EDIT: Also there is another feat to help support this upgrade.
Vaatu explicitly needed the energy of Harmonic Convergence to break free from his imprisonment in the Tree of Time. A prison the Avatar created from combining the AS and 4 elements. That would result in the Avatars prison being so strong that Vaatu needed Harmonic Convergences power to get out, otherwise he'd be trapped permanently.
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- Thread starter
- #54
@The Real Cal Howard
Btw, would you still like to give an opinion here?
Btw, would you still like to give an opinion here?
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The 6-A rating for Vaatu came from thisguy, who made the page for Vaatu.
"Life Wiper at full power (he was going to cover the world in darkness and then reshape it, when he posessed Unalaq he nearly managed to do so)"
And after rewatching the show, I still didnt find any statement (but perhabs I overlooked one) that would justify there current rating.
And again, the avatar state has been calced to be 7-C/7-B, going with feats given in all the seasons.
"If the energy the Avatar uses, such as the AS from Harmonic Convergence's energy, is considered that high and the Avatars use it on literally a constant basis, that would show consistency with its usage and we have enough evidence to supoort the AS being created from Harmonic Convergence energy." - Tell me, do you have feats that prove this ?
"Life Wiper at full power (he was going to cover the world in darkness and then reshape it, when he posessed Unalaq he nearly managed to do so)"
And after rewatching the show, I still didnt find any statement (but perhabs I overlooked one) that would justify there current rating.
And again, the avatar state has been calced to be 7-C/7-B, going with feats given in all the seasons.
"If the energy the Avatar uses, such as the AS from Harmonic Convergence's energy, is considered that high and the Avatars use it on literally a constant basis, that would show consistency with its usage and we have enough evidence to supoort the AS being created from Harmonic Convergence energy." - Tell me, do you have feats that prove this ?
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- Thread starter
- #57
I see. Well again, putting them at that tier had absolutely nothing to do with me so unless they get downgraded in the end, their tier is legitimate here.
Yes and? That would simply be abusing PIS or the AoE argument. If their AS's energy is indeed 6-A or more, then them doing much less with it feat wise is just energy control and whatnot, along with other factors.
Um, how about using the Avatar State all the time? Because that is what that comment is refering to. They use the AS constantly and the AS is created from the energy absorbed from Harmonic Convergence.
Yes and? That would simply be abusing PIS or the AoE argument. If their AS's energy is indeed 6-A or more, then them doing much less with it feat wise is just energy control and whatnot, along with other factors.
Um, how about using the Avatar State all the time? Because that is what that comment is refering to. They use the AS constantly and the AS is created from the energy absorbed from Harmonic Convergence.
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- #59
Perhaps we should deal with Raava and Vaatu first to see if they are at the right tier. Because if they aren't then we can drop this part of the argument.
However, even if they get downgraded, the upgrade could still be legitimate through Harmonic Convergences AP depending on what the calc results in when its made.
However, even if they get downgraded, the upgrade could still be legitimate through Harmonic Convergences AP depending on what the calc results in when its made.
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- #61
Yes and the feat would be absorbing that energy to form the Avatar Spirit and using it whenever going into the Avatar State.
As well as forming a sealed prison so strong that Vaatu with his own power couldn't escape for 10,000 yrs and needed the energy from Harmonic Convergence to escape.
We just need to see how strong the energy is since it covered the entire planet and shifted its energy. Also iirc it shook it a little bit too.
As well as forming a sealed prison so strong that Vaatu with his own power couldn't escape for 10,000 yrs and needed the energy from Harmonic Convergence to escape.
We just need to see how strong the energy is since it covered the entire planet and shifted its energy. Also iirc it shook it a little bit too.
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As someone who has a bit knowledge of physics and math, I can already tell you that we cant calc "energy shifts of the entire planet" and even then, the results would propably far to high to be accepted.
Wan didnt create the tree of time, it was already there. All he did was seal Vaatu and trap him inside the tree. You can read it here:
"Legends state that the Tree of Time's roots bind the two worlds together and is a source of great spiritual energy. In the era of Raava, the ancients used to commune in the hollow of the tree to connect with the great cosmic energy of the universe, before Vaatu was imprisoned in the tree by Avatar Wan. A book in Wan Shi Tong's Library recalls the legend of Vaatu's imprisonment in the Tree of Time. Elders believe that Vaatu is trapped by a strong spiritual barrier from which he cannot break free, provided that the two spirit portals are sealed by the arrival of Harmonic Convergence. If the portals were opened during this time, the amplified spiritual energy caused by overlap of the two portals will be enough for Vaatu to use in breaking the bonds that restrain him, leaving the mortal realm vulnerable to becoming enveloped in darkness" - from the avatar wiki.
"Harmonic Convergence is a supernatural phenomenon that occurs once every ten thousand years. When the planets align, spiritual energy is greatly amplified, causing the spirit portals at the North and South Poles to merge, while an aura of spirit energy envelops the Earth. During this event, Raava and Vaatu must engage in a battle that determines the fate of the world until the next Harmonic Convergence. However, after Raava merged with Wan, becoming the Avatar Spirit, it became the Avatar's duty to battle Vaatu in the Spirit World near the two portals that connect the two poles of the physical world." - avatar wiki
"Due to the amplification of spiritual energy during Harmonic Convergence, the entire planet is covered by spirit lights, starting from the poles." - thats a feat we could eventually calc, but it wasnt done by Raava or Vaatu.
"Yes and the feat would be absorbing that energy to form the Avatar Spirit and using it whenever going into the Avatar State." - About that: Wan used the energy only once to merge with Raava and thats it. He doenst use it every time he goes into the avatar state for several reasons:
Wan didnt create the tree of time, it was already there. All he did was seal Vaatu and trap him inside the tree. You can read it here:
"Legends state that the Tree of Time's roots bind the two worlds together and is a source of great spiritual energy. In the era of Raava, the ancients used to commune in the hollow of the tree to connect with the great cosmic energy of the universe, before Vaatu was imprisoned in the tree by Avatar Wan. A book in Wan Shi Tong's Library recalls the legend of Vaatu's imprisonment in the Tree of Time. Elders believe that Vaatu is trapped by a strong spiritual barrier from which he cannot break free, provided that the two spirit portals are sealed by the arrival of Harmonic Convergence. If the portals were opened during this time, the amplified spiritual energy caused by overlap of the two portals will be enough for Vaatu to use in breaking the bonds that restrain him, leaving the mortal realm vulnerable to becoming enveloped in darkness" - from the avatar wiki.
"Harmonic Convergence is a supernatural phenomenon that occurs once every ten thousand years. When the planets align, spiritual energy is greatly amplified, causing the spirit portals at the North and South Poles to merge, while an aura of spirit energy envelops the Earth. During this event, Raava and Vaatu must engage in a battle that determines the fate of the world until the next Harmonic Convergence. However, after Raava merged with Wan, becoming the Avatar Spirit, it became the Avatar's duty to battle Vaatu in the Spirit World near the two portals that connect the two poles of the physical world." - avatar wiki
"Due to the amplification of spiritual energy during Harmonic Convergence, the entire planet is covered by spirit lights, starting from the poles." - thats a feat we could eventually calc, but it wasnt done by Raava or Vaatu.
"Yes and the feat would be absorbing that energy to form the Avatar Spirit and using it whenever going into the Avatar State." - About that: Wan used the energy only once to merge with Raava and thats it. He doenst use it every time he goes into the avatar state for several reasons:
- The energy is only available during harmonic convergence
- Raava herself stated that after they merged, that they are bonded forever
- Its also basic physics. You only need the necessary energy once to create a chemical bond after that the bond is stable and doesnt need continuous energy to be sustained.
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Well we won't know someone from the official calc group says so (note: not discrediting you in any way shape or form so please do not think that). Also given this energy covered and shook the planet to an extent, that much at least is certainly calcable. For now thinking what tier it is on our own is just guessing and speculating.
Um, that is not remotely what I'm talking about. At all. Of course Wan didnt create the tree of time. I'm saying he trapped Vaatu inside of the element sphere, done using the AS, and placed it inside the Tree of Time. Vaatu needed Harmonic Convergence's power to break the barrier.
I know it wasn't done by them, that however doesn't discourage the upgrade.
1.) Why would it matter if its available only during Harmonic Convergence? A great deal of it was absorbed by Wan, Korra and Unalaq to fuse with Raava and Vaatu, which would still scale and count as an upgrade. Otherwise the sheer power of it would have immediately killed them (and Wan was already close to death for having Raava inside him too long, confirmed by Raava herself.) Also not true. The Avatar State was blatently created from Harmonic Convergences energy, even your wiki statement supports this. Wan using that energy after fusing was considered the first Avatar State. Same with Unalaq using the Dark Avatar State.
2.) Yes and then what? The energy would then remain within them to keep them forever fused. Otherwise if it disapated then they would logically come apart (and its not like them coming apart isnt impossible, Vaatu literally ripped Raava out of Korra afterall).
3.) Applying physics to spirits and spiritual anamolies works ...how and why?
Um, that is not remotely what I'm talking about. At all. Of course Wan didnt create the tree of time. I'm saying he trapped Vaatu inside of the element sphere, done using the AS, and placed it inside the Tree of Time. Vaatu needed Harmonic Convergence's power to break the barrier.
I know it wasn't done by them, that however doesn't discourage the upgrade.
1.) Why would it matter if its available only during Harmonic Convergence? A great deal of it was absorbed by Wan, Korra and Unalaq to fuse with Raava and Vaatu, which would still scale and count as an upgrade. Otherwise the sheer power of it would have immediately killed them (and Wan was already close to death for having Raava inside him too long, confirmed by Raava herself.) Also not true. The Avatar State was blatently created from Harmonic Convergences energy, even your wiki statement supports this. Wan using that energy after fusing was considered the first Avatar State. Same with Unalaq using the Dark Avatar State.
2.) Yes and then what? The energy would then remain within them to keep them forever fused. Otherwise if it disapated then they would logically come apart (and its not like them coming apart isnt impossible, Vaatu literally ripped Raava out of Korra afterall).
3.) Applying physics to spirits and spiritual anamolies works ...how and why?
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- #64
However, if all else really does fail or get rejected, what Ant said about Raava and Vaatu scaling above the Moon/Ocean spirits feat should be alright.
Just letting everyone know im perfectly fine with this too.
Just letting everyone know im perfectly fine with this too.
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I agree with Meseos over Kukui.
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- #67
That's not very nice Matt OvO
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I agree with Meosos.
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OvO < OzO.
fight me
fight me
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- #71
Also vaguely remember this but do we consider comic feats as well since they're canon?
If nothing in the show works maybe comic feats can also be used to support the suggested upgrade?
If nothing in the show works maybe comic feats can also be used to support the suggested upgrade?
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OzOi > OzO > OvO
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- #74
Thank you.
Also Loud, any pennies for your thoughts to this thread?
Also Loud, any pennies for your thoughts to this thread?
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Perhabs we could use this to upgrade the Avatar to 7-B. I just dont know if this really counts as an eruption:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uajGvehGs4#t=32s
"Mount St. Helens released 24 megatons" - http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/energy/energy-hurricane-volcano-earthquake2.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uajGvehGs4#t=32s
"Mount St. Helens released 24 megatons" - http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/energy/energy-hurricane-volcano-earthquake2.htm
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I don't think it really counts, seems uncertain also.
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- #79
Well at the very least the Moon and Oceans spirit feat should count if nothing else works in the end (I still think it can though but others have made their decisions).
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Well the thing about the Vaatu and Raava thing is that they are both seen changing size and strength throughout. Sometimes they are very large and powerful, other times they are small and weak (like when Wan was carrying Raava in the teapot) depending on the circumstances of who is winning the conflict (iirc). To scale Wan to a Continent-level Vaatu you'd have to prove Vaatu was the same strength in both situations.
