- 165,635
- 73,317
SamanPatou makes sense to me in that this seems like a massive outlier compared to the general portrayals of these characters, and GyroNutz seems to make sense in that the Pokemon universe does not seem to be infinitely large.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Pokemon Upgrade: Necrozma and High 3-A
- Thread starter ProfessorKukui4Life
- Start date
- Status
- 16,940
- 4,844
- Thread starter
- #202
Sorry, a page late but I just woke up so I want to respond to some stuff.
Necrozma has attached itself to Solgaleo. It siphons away its host's limitless energy, exploiting that energy to fuel a rampage.
Lunala no longer has a will of its own. Now under the control of Necrozma, it continuously expels all of its energy.
Ah. Well in any case, Lucian's should still count as valid for the same reason I gave to you in the Necrozma calc thread when this was brought up.
That makes no sense. The fact that Ultra Space connects to those past gen worlds in the first place would mean it applies to Ultra Space, and Giovanni used Ultra Wormholes to form Rainbow Rocket to begin with. So im not seeing what this point is supposed to entail.
Again, bigger infinities exist. And so can 2 things being infinitely separated.
See above.
Then it should be since the calc for it is accepted. And no, incorporating said light into its attacks is absolutely relevant as it means it applies as a speed feat.
They are...literally on Necrozma's page?
Necrozma has attached itself to Solgaleo. It siphons away its host's limitless energy, exploiting that energy to fuel a rampage.
Lunala no longer has a will of its own. Now under the control of Necrozma, it continuously expels all of its energy.
- 16,940
- 4,844
- Thread starter
- #203
And with all due respect to Saman, there's no real argument for why this would be an outlier. "Outlier" is being overused here based off of solely skepticism and the "depiction" argument.
First, in order for something to be an outlier in the first place, there needs to exist anti-feats to use in comparison with a proposed feat. Just as would numbers on a scale, an outlier feat is one that's wildly different from the feats it's compared to in order to judge it as being a viable feat or not. That is how an outlier works. If there doesn't exist any other feats to use as comparison with another feat, then the latter feat becomes the most common feat for the individual. And by that, it can't be deemed an outlier under those circumstances. A feat being an outlier, without having any other feat to compare it to, goes entirely against how an outlier works.
Next comes this "depiction" argument, which if we actually took at face value, half of this site would be losing their FTL ratings because of it. As Strym already pointed out earlier, characters as low as FTL to as high as infinite or immeasurable are never consistently portrayed as moving at either speed tiers 100% of the time in their general showings, and cinematic time is a huge part of why that is the case. But we never use "depiction" as a means to remove the character's rating as that would put in a large snowball effect of downgrades for Fiction being a heavy offender of this concept. Especially for characters who have their ratings through scaling without having any other quantifiable feats for them to compare during their depictions.
First, in order for something to be an outlier in the first place, there needs to exist anti-feats to use in comparison with a proposed feat. Just as would numbers on a scale, an outlier feat is one that's wildly different from the feats it's compared to in order to judge it as being a viable feat or not. That is how an outlier works. If there doesn't exist any other feats to use as comparison with another feat, then the latter feat becomes the most common feat for the individual. And by that, it can't be deemed an outlier under those circumstances. A feat being an outlier, without having any other feat to compare it to, goes entirely against how an outlier works.
Next comes this "depiction" argument, which if we actually took at face value, half of this site would be losing their FTL ratings because of it. As Strym already pointed out earlier, characters as low as FTL to as high as infinite or immeasurable are never consistently portrayed as moving at either speed tiers 100% of the time in their general showings, and cinematic time is a huge part of why that is the case. But we never use "depiction" as a means to remove the character's rating as that would put in a large snowball effect of downgrades for Fiction being a heavy offender of this concept. Especially for characters who have their ratings through scaling without having any other quantifiable feats for them to compare during their depictions.
- 15,840
- 11,001
just wanted to hop in and say
people were asking why ash is not 4-B and stuff yet here i am waiting for all yall for months to actually reply and do something. The only person replying is firestorm.
anywas now onto this entire thing going down. I decided that i lean on yes for high 3-A and no for infinite speed. Pokemon are indeed portrayed slower than infinity though clearly faster than light. Likely high 3-A would be supported by some of the limitless energy claims and also the fact that a recent pokemon Eternatus in his eternamax form can produce infinite energy (even if we don't know if it is overtime or instantly) to the point where it bent space around itself. That pokemon was portrayed as strong but nowhere near comparable to someone like Necrozma (Eternatus was beaten as he was affecting only the galar region meanwhile Necrozma affected universes despite them being essentially parallels to the main verse).
These are all just context for the situation so it seems less of an outlier. I get that suddenly upgrading so many mons to high 3-A seems weird but there are indeed many situations and statements which support limitless and infinite energy not being some flowery language or outlier.
Also i do consider it weird that y'all displeased about light being infinite speed. Like i get it...but we have electric attacks from Zecrom, Tapu-Koko, heck even Pikachu moving at relativistic speed. You know, water shouldn't logically move at relativistic speeds yet here we have Kyogre. Also i did note that yalls isssues with the speed is mostly due to the argument about wether the distance is infinite or not but i just wanted to point out that we shouldn't count in material
people were asking why ash is not 4-B and stuff yet here i am waiting for all yall for months to actually reply and do something. The only person replying is firestorm.
anywas now onto this entire thing going down. I decided that i lean on yes for high 3-A and no for infinite speed. Pokemon are indeed portrayed slower than infinity though clearly faster than light. Likely high 3-A would be supported by some of the limitless energy claims and also the fact that a recent pokemon Eternatus in his eternamax form can produce infinite energy (even if we don't know if it is overtime or instantly) to the point where it bent space around itself. That pokemon was portrayed as strong but nowhere near comparable to someone like Necrozma (Eternatus was beaten as he was affecting only the galar region meanwhile Necrozma affected universes despite them being essentially parallels to the main verse).
These are all just context for the situation so it seems less of an outlier. I get that suddenly upgrading so many mons to high 3-A seems weird but there are indeed many situations and statements which support limitless and infinite energy not being some flowery language or outlier.
Also i do consider it weird that y'all displeased about light being infinite speed. Like i get it...but we have electric attacks from Zecrom, Tapu-Koko, heck even Pikachu moving at relativistic speed. You know, water shouldn't logically move at relativistic speeds yet here we have Kyogre. Also i did note that yalls isssues with the speed is mostly due to the argument about wether the distance is infinite or not but i just wanted to point out that we shouldn't count in material
- 165,635
- 73,317
@Elizhaa @Dino_Ranger_Black @SomebodyData @WeeklyBattles @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Colonel_Krukov @Shadowbokunohero @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Assaltwaffle @Bobsican @Ionliosite @DarkDragonMedeus
What do you think about this? Do you agree with SamanPatou or Kukui?
What do you think about this? Do you agree with SamanPatou or Kukui?
- 30,349
- 32,135
I think Saman is making sense.
And, and off topic from his points. I never said I disagreed or agreed with the AP, but it's mostly the Infinite/Immeasurable speed I'm skeptical about. The reason is because it appears to just be AoE rather than speed. We typically avoid using characters who light up or nuke High 3-A sized universes as having Infinite attack speed for same reason lighting up or nuking timelines aren't Immeasurable attack speed because "The explosions scatters across all time and space". Which I feel like we might as well give every single timeline buster Immeasurable attack by methodology being proposed here. Which that would honestly be absurd given the consistency.
And, and off topic from his points. I never said I disagreed or agreed with the AP, but it's mostly the Infinite/Immeasurable speed I'm skeptical about. The reason is because it appears to just be AoE rather than speed. We typically avoid using characters who light up or nuke High 3-A sized universes as having Infinite attack speed for same reason lighting up or nuking timelines aren't Immeasurable attack speed because "The explosions scatters across all time and space". Which I feel like we might as well give every single timeline buster Immeasurable attack by methodology being proposed here. Which that would honestly be absurd given the consistency.
- 5,121
- 2,559
I agree with this, but can someone summary the opposing arguments, kinda of a big thread and i'm lazy and wall of texts.
- 12,956
- 5,053
What about UCs travelling trought the Ultra Space?
- 10,332
- 4,442
The problem with destroying a timeline giving immeasurable speed is that technically since time is a property of space, you can destroy a timeline by just destroying space, thus you wouldn’t need immeasurable speed for it. However that would be considered a chain reaction by our standards and thus not grant tier 2. Thus currently we have every timeline buster in a sort of limbo where to bust a timeline they need immeasurable attack speed or else it’s not a timeline bust, but simultaneously disregarding that and giving them tier 2 AP without immeasurable attack speed anyways.
Although I do find it double standard that a lighting up the universe feat is considered a legitimate MFTL+ speed feat for years but it ends up being just AoE when it just so happens to lead to infinite speed.
Although I do find it double standard that a lighting up the universe feat is considered a legitimate MFTL+ speed feat for years but it ends up being just AoE when it just so happens to lead to infinite speed.
- 16,940
- 4,844
- Thread starter
- #211
Could I get an opportunity to respond to this in a bit plz?
A little busy atm
A little busy atm
- 16,940
- 4,844
- Thread starter
- #213
Okay so giving another response. This time to what Dark said before:
The thing about "explosions scattering across all time and space so give me immeasurable speed" is that explosions are not really a speed feat in the first place. Not unless you react to the explosion (but that's a different matter). The attack itself isn't moving across universal distances, or any distances for that matter, to attack everything. Instead, the power behind the attack's explosion is what spreads across that distance when it's used. Not the attack itself, but the power it holds. Which is what range would be considered to be here. Effecting an area with your given attacks. This isn't the same thing as if a character actually launched the attack itself across the universe to destroy it, rather than simply making an explosion that spreads across it, because the former is the only actual time the attack itself moves at any speed. While in the latter case, the attack isn't moving. It's releasing the power it holds to effect the given area its able to effect, which is what constitutes range.
This is what would separate and differentiate range and speed. In one case, the attack itself moves across a distance before it's power is unleashed, which can be scaled as a speed feat. The other case is the attack as a whole not moving, but effecting an area with it's power released, and that's only considered to be range. That is where the difference stems from.
Now, regarding Pokemon's case here with Necrozma, his feat would need to be considered the former. Why? Because the light that Necrozma unleashes to illuminate Ultra Space would be traveling to fill the entire realm, reach ultra wormholes, and fill the universes that the Ultra Wormholes connect to. And on top of that, this said light that Necrozma unleashes is incorporated into his attacks (which is another thing that differentiates Necrozma from the case of range). Attacks that other Pokemon are capable of reacting to. And because of that, the feat being speed and scaling from it can hold.
So while I see what Dark is saying, this ultimately seems like a false comparison to me. Not just in Necrozma's case, but for general cases involving illumination that can be scaled.
While I do understand where Dark is coming from with this skepticism, which to an extent at least is correct, this looks like a false equivalance because of a matter of context.
The thing about "explosions scattering across all time and space so give me immeasurable speed" is that explosions are not really a speed feat in the first place. Not unless you react to the explosion (but that's a different matter). The attack itself isn't moving across universal distances, or any distances for that matter, to attack everything. Instead, the power behind the attack's explosion is what spreads across that distance when it's used. Not the attack itself, but the power it holds. Which is what range would be considered to be here. Effecting an area with your given attacks. This isn't the same thing as if a character actually launched the attack itself across the universe to destroy it, rather than simply making an explosion that spreads across it, because the former is the only actual time the attack itself moves at any speed. While in the latter case, the attack isn't moving. It's releasing the power it holds to effect the given area its able to effect, which is what constitutes range.
This is what would separate and differentiate range and speed. In one case, the attack itself moves across a distance before it's power is unleashed, which can be scaled as a speed feat. The other case is the attack as a whole not moving, but effecting an area with it's power released, and that's only considered to be range. That is where the difference stems from.
Now, regarding Pokemon's case here with Necrozma, his feat would need to be considered the former. Why? Because the light that Necrozma unleashes to illuminate Ultra Space would be traveling to fill the entire realm, reach ultra wormholes, and fill the universes that the Ultra Wormholes connect to. And on top of that, this said light that Necrozma unleashes is incorporated into his attacks (which is another thing that differentiates Necrozma from the case of range). Attacks that other Pokemon are capable of reacting to. And because of that, the feat being speed and scaling from it can hold.
So while I see what Dark is saying, this ultimately seems like a false comparison to me. Not just in Necrozma's case, but for general cases involving illumination that can be scaled.
Last edited:
- 3,566
- 877
I agree about everything stated in OP
- 1,626
- 146
So
- 1,626
- 146
ok
- 1,626
- 146
all i did was bump
- 10,002
- 5,221
I'll state it again, I think Kukui does make sense, and has so far managed to counter most, if not all, counterpoints as to why High 3-A with Infinite speed for these higher tier characters would work. As has been mentioned before, it would make me so much more comfortable to just list them as Likely, which seems to be the plan here, and so far, everything seems pretty well in hand. Though, I'll say this again, I am not very comfortable talking about high tier characters, so take my words with a grain of salt.
Also, Ant, just because it took those verses years to complete their upgrades doesn't mean we have to wait this one out for years. Yes, we should have patience, but we also shouldn't let CRTs drag out either, especially if there is a finish line right where we can see it. Garchomp didn't act out of line, in my opinion, so how about we ease up here, eh?
Also, Ant, just because it took those verses years to complete their upgrades doesn't mean we have to wait this one out for years. Yes, we should have patience, but we also shouldn't let CRTs drag out either, especially if there is a finish line right where we can see it. Garchomp didn't act out of line, in my opinion, so how about we ease up here, eh?
Rikimarox2
He/Him- 7,744
- 4,299
I'm honestly leaning towards for a Possibly rather than likely, for the other pokemons at least.
Lou_change
He/Him- 9,822
- 5,187
I agree with high 3-A however I am very scared of infinite I don't have a good argument but I know for a fact most of the verse is shown capable of reacting to the legendaries listed most often when they have no reason to hold back and that it kind of invalidates speed deoxys whole point of existence but I also think every legendary scales to each other except arceus and that normal fully evolved pokemon downscale from the birds so I am probably wrong.
The_Pink_God
She/Her- 2,607
- 688
I agree with High 3-A but Infinite Speed looks kinds of iffy IMO
I always thought that it would be better suiting as attacks speed than anything else really
High 3-A seems fine tho
I always thought that it would be better suiting as attacks speed than anything else really
High 3-A seems fine tho
- 3,881
- 1,113
I agree with likely high 3-A but would be better with possibly Infinite speed
- 165,635
- 73,317
Okay. "Likely" or "Possibly" might be a good solution then.
Okay. My apologies.
- 165,635
- 73,317
Okay. "Likely" might be a good solution then.
Okay. My apologies.
- 10,002
- 5,221
This seems like a pretty good compromise to me.
- 11,963
- 18,911
After reading this thread, I agree with "At least 3-C, likely High 3-A" and that "At least Massively FTL+, possibly Infinite" is a good compromise. Kukui has made very solid points and counters to any counterarguments in my opinion.
- 11,963
- 18,911
My only question is with the scaling. This would apply to characters that are either 4-B or 5-B/5-A, likely 4-B based on what I'm seeing, so why are some "At least Low 6-B" Pokemon like the Therians scaling?
- 11,963
- 18,911
Okay, that makes sense. Currently the musketeers are rated as "At least Low 6-B, likely 5-B to 4-B" so I guess this would change to "At least Low 6-B, likely 3-C to High 3-A"?
- 11,963
- 18,911
I see. Big jump, but overall with the likely 2-A structure of the Pokemon multiverse being accepted, I think the revisions make sense.
- 165,635
- 73,317
Thank you for the evaluation.
What do other staff member here think about this solution?
- 12,956
- 5,053
Can the changes be applied then?
Rikimarox2
He/Him- 7,744
- 4,299
So, what are the results?
Are we going: Likely for High 3-A and a possibly for infinite speed rating
Or: Likely for everything?
Are we going: Likely for High 3-A and a possibly for infinite speed rating
Or: Likely for everything?
- 165,635
- 73,317
We need to check what the other staff members here think about the compromise solution first, so I need some cooperation from the rest of you regarding what I posted above.
- Status
Similar threads
