Pokemon Upgrade: Necrozma and High 3-A

[StrymULTRA]

If we accept that statement as rock-solid evidence for those Pokémon to have infinite speed, than even Giovanni and all the RR must have infinite speed to accomplish the thing, as they wouldn't be able to do such without it.

But they use the UCs to do so, not that they do from themselves.

 

[Greenshifter]

No offence, but I find this as a rather weak argument, as Giovanni's words are a bit up in the air, and with the same thing you can assume Giovanni can live forever in order to conquer an endless amount of worlds

Technically Giovanni could just order the UC’s to do the work for him though. That way it can be accomplished in a finite amount of time.

 

[SamanPatou]

I think conquering an infinite amount of world in a finite time is kind of impossible by definition (though I can be wrong).
And ordering the UBs to do it would trigger some weird paradoxical thing, nothing that Giovanni and other humans can witness due to their limited nature.
And the entire thing about needing to be stopped is kinda worthless, given that with infinte speed they could already have conquered all worlds or most of it without anyone being able to do anything.

That single, vague statement brings more problems with the whole argument than else.

 

[Greenshifter]

That's is different, their speed doesn't come from travellin through the entirety of an infinite amount of worlds, rather from the fact they kind of ignore time and act in the stream of it or something like that

It comes from Dialga who was able to create a gap in time, between the parts of a split second and fighting Palkia in shattered space-time. And I had to debate my ass off for the former, traveling an infinite distance in a finite amount of time is a dream feat compared to that by our new standards.

Also all of your counter-arguments would also apply to MFTL(+) since visually regular people wouldn’t even see the difference.

And they don't come along a 1km-long scaling chain that covers half of the legendaries and something more.

This is outlier stuff that should be looked at in another thread really.

 

[SamanPatou]

Also all of your counter-arguments would also apply to MFTL(+) since visually regular people wouldn’t even see the difference.

About this, I know, but personally I find that still more acceptable and "within the boundaries" than something the totally breaks everything as infinite speed.

But my arguments weren't entirely solid and "debunking" in the first place, I stand more on the depiction of the Pokémon as creatures and stuff that happens as a whole.

And determine a point were the outliers starts isn't that easy, as it can be placed at almost any point of the scaling chain , and the feat itself could be considered one.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I think conquering an infinite amount of world in a finite time is kind of impossible by definition (though I can be wrong).

This guy "cataloged" infinite amount of worlds in a finite time, so I don't see what's wrong with conquering them in such.

And ordering the UBs to do it would trigger some weird paradoxical thing, nothing that Giovanni and other humans can witness due to their limited nature.

Again, is fiction.

And the entire thing about needing to be stopped is kinda worthless, given that with infinte speed they could already have conquered all worlds or most of it without anyone being able to do anything.

Mostly PIS tho, we already saw the villains with the big bad mons are defeated for dumb reasons like Rose being stopped at the last moment despite he could activate Eteranus at any moment.

 

[Greenshifter]

I think conquering an infinite amount of world in a finite time is kind of impossible by definition

It really isn’t for people with infinite speed. That’s kind of the point, if you see conquering as just shooting beams and maybe destroying a few star systems to make everyone fear your power the first time you visit the parallel universe and do the round-trip (to the other ones) and the second time you give a piece of paper or whatever to the UC’s that they need to drop on the floor in every universe which reads “surrender or I’m gonna blow up your universe” then congrats you just conquered infinite universes.

 

[SamanPatou]

Fair enough on that (even though it's kind of a stretch anyway on Giovanni's intentions, but I will not argue on that anymore [the stament is still a bit of hyperbolish to me, though]).

This guy "cataloged" infinite amount of worlds in a finite time, so I don't see what's wrong with conquering them in such.

About this, my problem was for the interaction between some that can do it and others that can't, but with both sharing and witnessing the same result,if I explained myself well. (but apparently it is possible).

 

[Greenshifter]

The other feat is dodging Necrozma’s light. Do you have a problem with that btw?

 

[SamanPatou]

Logically it's perfect, the light has infinite speed when illuminating something, and has it even while used in an harmful way, but it still is a beam that takes time to travel from point to point, but all Pokémon are depicted and considered as having a finite speed. As I said at the start, my problem isn't with the logic, but with how the Pokémon and all mechanics revolving around them are treated and depicted in all media.

 

[Greenshifter]

point, but all Pokémon are depicted and considered as having a finite speed.

So are the Creation Trio, in fact the way we see the fights on-screen look as if they have hypersonic speeds at best, of course cinematic timing is a thing though.

 

[SamanPatou]

Don't they have the whole avatar and true form thing, which is even stated to be ture inside of the games (from the hiker, if i'm not wrong)? It's a totally different thing, as what we see are embodiment of them.

 

[Greenshifter]

One of the infinite speed feats comes from a weakened avatar of Dialga.. The other one is a fight between the 2 avatars of Palkia and Dialga.

 

[SamanPatou]

With that we connect to the canon problem, as currently MD shouldn't be used, but the umpteenth CRT about canon is going to happen rather soon, I believe. (let's not touch that can of worms here, otherwise chaos is granted).

But I'm somewhat more comfortable with them, as they are gods with stuff backing up what they can do, their nature and they are basically enclosed in their own boxes, disconnected from the other Pokémon.

 

[Greenshifter]

as they are gods with stuff backing up what they can do

And UB’s aren’t gods in their own right? I don’t think Giovanni is gonna be happy with small fries.

they are basically enclosed in their own boxes, disconnected from the other Pokémon.

This is again more the outlier stuff. I was arguing against the portrayal stuff, my point was that usually in fiction portrayal isn’t always gonna be consistent with these higher speeds, mostly because these beings are casual at times and just let time pass for them, but this again also applies to MFTL(+).

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

My problem with the upgrade comes more from the general depiction of the characters and everything, more than the logic of the feat itself, which is correct (Illumination and infinite place = infinite energy and infinite speed, which then becomes infinite attack speed when using said light).

In rough words, these Pokémon fly, walk, run, dodge, can have their speed lowered or increased, can be outrun, are faster and slower than each other and else, and there are no other feats for this infinite tier (traveling throgh ultra space isn't a feat, as they still cross form point A to point B, they don't travel infinity in its entirety).
And also, through scaling chain, this infinite and 3-A stuff gets expanded to many Pokémon.

No offense intended or anything Saman, but im not really seeing how this is an argument.

Speaking from a general standpoint and not strictly from a Pokemon standpoint, tiers related to High 3-A and up, as well as infinite speed, can be treated in a sense that they can be lowered or raised all of the time in fiction and they don't become any sort of anti-points against the characters being able to become said tiers.

Since your points moreso about infinite speed, to comment on that a bit more, we allow for infinite speed characters to be faster or slower than each other. We don't treat it as "same all around" once you hit that speed tier. So again, the points on these guys having their speeds lowered or increased shouldn't be a counter argument against the rating as a whole.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

So are the Creation Trio, in fact the way we see the fights on-screen look as if they have hypersonic speeds at best, of course cinematic timing is a thing though.

This point is also a complete non-argument too, as you can apply this logic to pretty much any kind of FTL character who isn't always depicted as moving at such speeds, but we aren't going to make a site-wide downgrade for all of them because of that no are we? (Not responding to you Green but the general point you were talking about).

 

[GyroNutz]

From the previous Necrozma thread:

"Masuda making a statement about a game doesn't mean every statement from that game has to be taken at face value. Sure, the statement ends up being true, but the quote's clearly about how beautiful space is and stuff rather than giving a quantifiable metric of how big the multiverse is. Also it's not Lucian's quote technically, he's quoting some random artist.

What I'm saying is that the 2-A comes from there being an infinite amount of parallel dimensions. So there's an infinite number of Ultra Spaces, each with its own Necrozma and a countless number of Ultra Beast homeworlds. Where does infinite wormholes come from then?

The original story and Cyrus both state that the Pokemon universe is expanding from an origin point, like the Big Bang. Pretty sure they can't be infinite in size."

The infinite space and time Masuda statement refers to infinite parallel universes, which is why we have the 2-A ratings. However each individual Pokemon universe cannot be infinite in size, not only for what Cal posted earlier but also because of the statements saying that pokemon universes expand from an origin point. The "countless" wormholes actually being an infinite number is a demonstrably untrue assumption, as each wormhole would take up some finite space. Also even if it was true, I'm pretty sure lighting up all of Ultra Space would be a range feat rather than a speed one, and it's a feat that has no real supporting feats (at least High 3-A has Victini's infinite power statements as potential backing).

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

From the previous Necrozma thread:

"Masuda making a statement about a game doesn't mean every statement from that game has to be taken at face value. Sure, the statement ends up being true, but the quote's clearly about how beautiful space is and stuff rather than giving a quantifiable metric of how big the multiverse is. Also it's not Lucian's quote technically, he's quoting some random artist.

Lucian wasn't mentioned in this thread in the first place, why is this point being brought up here from the earlier thread?

What I'm saying is that the 2-A comes from there being an infinite amount of parallel dimensions. So there's an infinite number of Ultra Spaces, each with its own Necrozma and a countless number of Ultra Beast homeworlds. Where does infinite wormholes come from then?

I answered this before already.

The Many Worlds Interpretation, which contributes to Pokemon's 2-A rating, applies to Ultra Space as well (because of Rainbow Rockets whole existence, the opposite world from the games and countless wormholes, which would become infinite in this context). MWI = 2-A, so it would still bring us back to Ultra Space being infinite in size.

Not to mention the fact that Ultra Space links back to the worlds of the previous gen games (which are exactly the same minus the difference in the team leaders accomplishing their goals).

The original story and Cyrus both state that the Pokemon universe is expanding from an origin point, like the Big Bang. Pretty sure they can't be infinite in size."

Infinity can still expand to greater infinities. This was said before.

The infinite space and time Masuda statement refers to infinite parallel universes, which is why we have the 2-A ratings. However each individual Pokemon universe cannot be infinite in size, not only for what Cal posted earlier

See above. Cal was addressed and countered.

but also because of the statements saying that pokemon universes expand from an origin point.

Again, see above.

The "countless" wormholes actually being an infinite number is a demonstrably untrue assumption, as each wormhole would take up some finite space.

How...is this an argument? We would be having infinite ultra wormholes.

Also even if it was true, I'm pretty sure lighting up all of Ultra Space would be a range feat rather than a speed one, and it's a feat that has no real supporting feats (at least High 3-A has Victini's infinite power statements as potential backing).

No, its a speed feat. It's literally the same thing as Necrozma's MFTL feat, the only difference is in the ratings. And Necrozma incorporates it's light into its attacks, which can be reacted to, so the feat would scale exactly as it does now with MFTL+.

Aside from a rating change, the speed feat would be 100% the same thing as each other, there is zero reason for this to be just a range feat.

Also, Solgaleo and Lunala's dex statements give us infinite power statements too like Victini's, so that would be further backing.

 

[Zeifyl]

From the previous Necrozma thread:

"Masuda making a statement about a game doesn't mean every statement from that game has to be taken at face value. Sure, the statement ends up being true, but the quote's clearly about how beautiful space is and stuff rather than giving a quantifiable metric of how big the multiverse is. Also it's not Lucian's quote technically, he's quoting some random artist.

What I'm saying is that the 2-A comes from there being an infinite amount of parallel dimensions. So there's an infinite number of Ultra Spaces, each with its own Necrozma and a countless number of Ultra Beast homeworlds. Where does infinite wormholes come from then?

The original story and Cyrus both state that the Pokemon universe is expanding from an origin point, like the Big Bang. Pretty sure they can't be infinite in size."

The infinite space and time Masuda statement refers to infinite parallel universes, which is why we have the 2-A ratings. However each individual Pokemon universe cannot be infinite in size, not only for what Cal posted earlier but also because of the statements saying that pokemon universes expand from an origin point. The "countless" wormholes actually being an infinite number is a demonstrably untrue assumption, as each wormhole would take up some finite space. Also even if it was true, I'm pretty sure lighting up all of Ultra Space would be a range feat rather than a speed one, and it's a feat that has no real supporting feats (at least High 3-A has Victini's infinite power statements as potential backing).

All of this can be dealt with, using my favorite aspect of infinity: There's always more of it!
That's also why the real world Universe is thought to be infinite even though it is expanding. It's expanding into itself.

 

[Reio35]

Thought VSB didn't expect infinite anything? Im seeing bias here

 

[Zeifyl]

Thought VSB didn't expect infinite anything? Im seeing bias here

VSB doesn't allow true omnipotence. Infinity is a very common concept around here, to the point where around a third of the tier list directly deals with characters with infinite power. High 1-B, for example, has a requirement of an infinite amount of infinite infinities, each conceptually infinitely larger than the previous.
Some tier 0's are so powerful, they translate the concept of "Infinity", even in its purest form, to "Nobody cares".

 

[Zencha9]

Thought VSB didn't expect infinite anything? Im seeing bias here

not really

 

[SamanPatou]

My point about depiction wasn't about cinematic time and such, because I perfectly know how that stuff works, it was about having and showing a finite speed regardless of how fast it can be, which is totally different from having infinite speed.

And my disagreement about speed is connected to ap, as they come from the same feat and justification.

Also, I'm fine with not considering my argument, as I said, it's not a proper debunk or counterargument.

Even allowing stuff like "it's infinite but for the sake of everything we treat it as it wasn't when it comes to contradictions like someone being faster or slower, seeing stuff traveling from A to B, needing time to do something etc..." sounds like a stretch to made the upgrade happen.

The fact that this would also apply to half of the legendaries and someone more is also a problem, you can put the "outlier limiter" at any point of the scaling chain but I don't see why it can't be applied to the feat itself at the end of the day.

 

[StrymULTRA]

My point about depiction wasn't about cinematic time and such, because I perfectly know how that stuff works, it was about having and showing a finite speed regardless of how fast it can be, which is totally different from having infinite speed.

All the Infinite/Immeasurable Speed characters are "finite speed" on screen tho

 

[SamanPatou]

Atm I'm speaking of Pokémon, I don't like to bring up other verses and characters of which I don't know about , as I may miss big or little details, rules and a lot of additional stuff, but it doesn't mean I would agree with the rating.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Atm I'm speaking of Pokémon, I don't like to bring up other verses and characters of which I don't know about , as I may miss big or little details, rules and a lot of additional stuff, but it doesn't mean I would agree with the rating.

It was in general, you rarely see an Infinite Speed character moving at literally 0 time without statements/implications on screen.

 

[SamanPatou]

Yeah, but the details and all the stuff behind can greatly influence the verdict on it, making it more or less acceptable. (and still, it doesn't mean I would agree anyway).

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yeah, but the details and all the stuff behind can greatly influence the verdict on it, making it more or less acceptable. (and still, it doesn't mean I would agree anyway).

What are you actually trying to say

 

[SamanPatou]

It was about these other characters you mentioned, I can't talk for them out of nothing, and that my opinion focuses on Pokémon. If I were to argue for other verses I may disagree with infinite speed, or I may not depending on the subject and everything that stands behind.

 

[StrymULTRA]

It's more wiki standards, if other verses have the "Infinite Speed Characters moving on Finite Speed on screen" thing ignored, why Pokémon should be an exception to the rule

 

[SamanPatou]

I think there should be more factors involved, judging everything on a case by case basis (if this is not a rule I didn't notice). (and that was only part of my points, even though it was important).

 

[StrymULTRA]

I think there should be more factors involved, judging everything on a case by case basis (if this is not a rule I didn't notice). (and that was only part of my points, even though it was important).

This is really uneccessary, is fiction, is not supposed to make sense, and nothing really contradicts them having infinite speed anyways.

 

[GyroNutz]

All of this can be dealt with, using my favorite aspect of infinity: There's always more of it!
That's also why the real world Universe is thought to be infinite even though it is expanding. It's expanding into itself.

Most people I've spoken to/heard don't think that actually, though it can't be proven either way due to a lack of knowledge. If a universe expands from a point, it should be considered finite unless it expands at an infinite rate (a further assumption, so Occam's Razor would favour the former).

 

[StrymULTRA]

Most people I've spoken to/heard don't think that actually, though it can't be proven either way due to a lack of knowledge. If a universe expands from a point, it should be considered finite unless it expands at an infinite rate (a further assumption, so Occam's Razor would favour the former).

Blog already accepted that the Ultra Wormholes are Infinite in 2-A version tho

 

[Greenshifter]

Most people I've spoken to/heard don't think that actually, though it can't be proven either way due to a lack of knowledge. If a universe expands from a point, it should be considered finite unless it expands at an infinite rate (a further assumption, so Occam's Razor would favour the former).

Infinity is relative, 1 decimeter is actually an infinity since there’s an infinite amount of points that it’s made out off and it also has a center and an edge, you wouldn’t say that when a decimeter long stick expands due to heat that it isn’t composed of infinite points anymore. So it’s not uncommon for characters to place themselves in a mental position where they can acknowledge the universe has a center and an edge (especially if the multiverse exists) while still seeing it as infinite. (time is also an uncountable infinity btw, which is the reason low 2-C ratings exist, yet we still treat it as if it’s finite)

Also if the only option for the infinite-sized universe and universe having an origin point to co-exist is that the universe infinitely expands then Occam’s Razor is irrelevant since there’s only one option. Not that this matters too much for the current thread anyways.

 

[GyroNutz]

Lucian wasn't mentioned in this thread in the first place, why is this point being brought up here from the earlier thread?

It's still on the 2-A blog which is used for this update.

I answered this before already.

The Many Worlds Interpretation, which contributes to Pokemon's 2-A rating, applies to Ultra Space as well (because of Rainbow Rockets whole existence, the opposite world from the games and countless wormholes, which would become infinite in this context). MWI = 2-A, so it would still bring us back to Ultra Space being infinite in size.

Not to mention the fact that Ultra Space links back to the worlds of the previous gen games (which are exactly the same minus the difference in the team leaders accomplishing their goals).

My point is that it doesn't necessarily apply to Ultra Space. Giovanni summoned those leaders, there doesn't need to be a wormhole for every past gen world.

See above. Cal was addressed and countered.

Hardly. An infinitely sized world can't have an opposite side.

How...is this an argument? We would be having infinite ultra wormholes.

It follows on from my previous argument - there can't be infinite ultra wormholes without an infinite-sized universe.

No, its a speed feat. It's literally the same thing as Necrozma's MFTL feat, the only difference is in the ratings. And Necrozma incorporates it's light into its attacks, which can be reacted to, so the feat would scale exactly as it does now with MFTL+.

Aside from a rating change, the speed feat would be 100% the same thing as each other, there is zero reason for this to be just a range feat.

Necrozma's MFTL feat (which I assume is lighting up a universe) is not on his profile. The rest of what you said is irrelevant.

Also, Solgaleo and Lunala's dex statements give us infinite power statements too like Victini's, so that would be further backing.

Which ones are those then?

 

[GyroNutz]

Infinity is relative, 1 decimeter is actually an infinity since there’s an infinite amount of points that it’s made out off and it also has a center and an edge, you wouldn’t say that when a decimeter long stick expands due to heat that it isn’t composed of infinite points anymore. So it’s not uncommon for characters to place themselves in a mental position where they can acknowledge the universe has a center and an edge (especially if the multiverse exists) while still seeing it as infinite. (time is also an uncountable infinity btw, which is the reason low 2-C ratings exist, yet we still treat it as if it’s finite)

We don't measure things by infinitesimal points, but with metres. We can say the ruler has an edge/centre only when we look at it using a finite measurement such as metres - picking an infinitesimal point which is the centre of the ruler would be impossible.

 

[StrymULTRA]

My point is that it doesn't necessarily apply to Ultra Space. Giovanni summoned those leaders, there doesn't need to be a wormhole for every past gen world.

Part 4 and 5 of the blog: k

Hardly. An infinitely sized world can't have an opposite side.

Infinity can be divided in more parts tho, for example if you get an infinite line of spheres, you can make 1 side of X color and the other of Y color, and thus making infinity of "2 sides".

 

[Greenshifter]

When you’re talking about the amount of universes then you’re obviously gonna need another measuring stick, one that could very well see a single universe as an infinitesimal point (or maybe use a new unit where you use it’s size as the baseline), regardless of it’s size and the conclusion that an infinite universe has a center and an edge is a feasible one when you look at it at that scale.